What is wrong with these people?


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What is wrong with these people?

Postby WingAdmin » Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:52 am



My wife and I spent the weekend riding around our favorite local motorcycling area - near Millersburg OH, Amish country. Lots of windy, hilly roads with amazing scenery, and not much traffic.

There were TONS of bikes going up and down 83 all weekend. As usual for Ohio, they were about 90% Harleys, and about 80% helmetless. It was a warm weekend, so the helmetless fools were for the most part riding in T-shirts, and some even in shorts - and we saw some flip-flops as well. Even worse are the guys riding bikes with at least a leather jacket, but their girlfriends/wives ride on back wearing t-shirts, flip flops, or less.

Perhaps it takes having crashed before, having had to spend months on crutches, having years of pain as a result, to get the sense in your head to know to wear every piece of gear, every time. I certainly don't want to go through that ever again. I never get on my bike without wearing everything.

I came across this page today. Caution, it's a bit graphic. But it's one biker's story, a guy who I am sure will ALWAYS wear his gear from now on.

I'll get off my soapbox now.



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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby cyclewizard » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:25 pm

I would never sit my butt on a motorcycle without a helmet and riding gear.
I've been run over by cagers and the gear has saved my life.

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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby WingAdmin » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:27 pm

Me too. Perhaps that's the difference between people like us, and people who ride helmetless, in shorts & T-shirts.

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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby cyclewizard » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:34 pm

Just the thought of getting hit by a car or even hitting deer or dog scares the pants off me.

It's crazy today how disrespectful cagers are of motorcyclist.
When I see people on cell phones driving the red flag alert pops into my head,"look out they may not see you and run to over".

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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby cyclewizard » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:22 pm

WingAdmin wrote:Me too. Perhaps that's the difference between people like us, and people who ride helmetless, in shorts & T-shirts.



There no cure for stupid. hahahaha

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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby propstop » Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:02 pm

Thanks for the link to Benny's accident. I have been really dumb far as equipment goes even having had a similar accident back in the seventies. Might be worth a new topic on your site, "
Defensive Safety". I told you about my accident Labor Day (invisible motorcycle) and if I had gone down I would be in much worse shape than Benny. Despite all this I still hadn't thought about upgrading my riding gear. Dumbdumbdumb

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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby propstop » Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:08 pm

Forgot to post this link. Kinda relevant




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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby cyclewizard » Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:22 pm

HAHA, they have some mighty big bugs in Norway. lol

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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby pudd750 » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:46 pm

i suggested "high beam always during the day",- the often small sliver of light the low beam produces is invisible during the day", on another forum, and no one said a word- maybe they listened anyway

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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby brianinpa » Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:10 am

I guess I am one of "these people" because I sometimes choose to ride without a helmet and I am not an ATGATT proponent. It really comes down to a personal choice. Just as some would never get on a bike without all the gear, there are others that do. So if a person chooses to do something that differes from anothers opinion, why should it bother someone else when it isn't physically harming them?
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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby wjnfirearms » Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:55 am

Yes, it's a personal choice and I'm not necessarily against that it should be. Still, there's much more than personal choice involved.

First, how much should anyone risk their lives doing what they wish to do? It would be ok if it didn't involve everyone else. By that I mean, when someone goes down and hasn't taken personal precautions, more people get involved. First responders, accident investigators, medical staff, medical facilities to name a few. If that person isn't insured well, who pays for their care? In the end, we do. We pay taxes for police and EMS where EMS is municipal, not private. When someone is injured because they did not prepare, the resources go to them where they could be used elsewhere. Yes, my perspective is biased because I was both a motorcyclist and first responder, but I've seen both sides up close and personal.

Second, while common sense is hardly common, you'd think anyone with a brain cell would want to protect it. That doesn't happen. Have any of you ever been badly burned even on a very small surface area of skin? That is basically what road rash feels like. Imagine that burn on your hand or wherever magnified exponentially because you slid along the ground at, oh, 45 mph or so. Remember Newton's Law. An object in motion tends to stay in motion until acted upon by another force. That opposing force would be the asphalt or concrete. The care for road rash is basically the same for burns also and the initial treatment is extremely painful, debreading the injured area often with a scrub brush to clean out all the contaminants before actual treatment can begin. The risk of massive infection is high and the time needed for healing is great. Human skin is the first line of defense of the immune system. Heavy damage opens the entire body to infection and the risk of death is high. You're potentially looking at months in the hospital for just this if the body surface area involved is large enough. Skin grafts anyone? Now, you haven't even gotten into the potential for multi system trauma and the treatment for whatever one has injured internally. Fractures, organ and vascular damage, nerve damage. The list goes on.

Now, what about the melon we all have perched upon the top of our bodies. In weight and relative size, you could say that we have a bowling ball up there. Inside, there is the fragile brain suspended in a small amount of fluid between the brain and skull. It acts as a cushion, but has it's limitations. Severe energy transfer can cause the skull to contact the inside of the skull causing a concussion, contusing of brain tissue in more severe cases, tearing of vessels in even worse cases. Bleeding into the brain often causes permanent disability and death. With no external protection, direct contact with those immovable objects like the pavement can cause skull fractures which can cause severe brain injury. The brain doesn't have the ability to heal when injured like other parts of the human anatomy. ALL significant brain injury can be permanent or fatal.

I could go on and on and on especially with the medical background I have among my other public safety training. I was also an instructor for many years, so I tend to get on a soap box about stuff like this.

I guess you could say the bottom line here is the fact that we have a responsibility to ourselves, our families and the community to protect ourselves when possible. To do it because it is the right thing to do rather than something that was legislated is ok and preferred, but it still should be done, at least for ourselves if nobody else.
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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby pudd750 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:18 am

i was probably 10 when i took off on our Cushman Eagle (with the unbreakable cast iron motor, not a later aluminum motor)- floorboards, no shoes, dangling my feet off the front of the floorboards till a big toe caught the pavement and got a quarter sized divot took off the end of it - i was amazed and unhappy-
a few years ago i was taking the long way around lake michigan on my 72 Guzzi - west thru old chicago, to the mississippi river, north, then east to sault st marie- i had no equipment like skid proof but it was pretty warm and i didnt envy the ones that had their impervious- to- rash- one- piece -suits - someday hope to own something along those (kevlar)? lines but currently dont - all sorts of vents on them so they are bearable i suppose-
a rider i know just hit a deer at 55- ground a bit of his elbow off and disconnected the tricep- the attending Dr didnt notice till well into the repair he said "hey , wheres your .... ?" it had wadded up in his shoulder and had to be dragged back out and stapled back on
i know a guy thats in this situation - selling everything http://www.ebay.com/itm/Olympia-Phantom ... 2f&vxp=mtr

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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby brianinpa » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:44 pm

wjnfirearms wrote:Yes, it's a personal choice and I'm not necessarily against that it should be. Still, there's much more than personal choice involved.
...
I guess you could say the bottom line here is the fact that we have a responsibility to ourselves, our families and the community to protect ourselves when possible. To do it because it is the right thing to do rather than something that was legislated is ok and preferred, but it still should be done, at least for ourselves if nobody else.


For everything mentioned thus far, the same can be said for a person driving any vehicle.

I have taken several things into consideration before making my choice. I have insurance; my sons are both over 21 and on their own, so I don't have children relying on my income; and if I were to die in an accident, there is enough that my wife will live comfortable. You are correct: I have a responsibility to myself and my family, but that is where I no longer agree. I don't feel that I have a responsibility to my community to do what someone else perceives to be the right thing for me. That is why I believe it is a personal choice and one that should not be mandated or regulated.

I have had this debate numerous times, and it always amazes me how the name calling escalates as soon as this topic comes up. I have read where I (and others like me) am/are stupid, dumb, foolish, an idiot, etc, etc, etc.
Brian

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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby Sidcar » Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:18 pm

Crash helmets are compulsory over here. I didn't agree with the law when it was brought in, back in the late sixties, I don't like Big Brother telling me what to do.
On the other hand I wouldn't think of going out on the road without one or good protective clothing.
Most of the year you have to wear something or you'd freeze to death.

Sid

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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby WingAdmin » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:34 pm

I saw this letter in this month's GWRRA. It struck me, because I've been in a similar situation before.

In Regard to Wearing Helmets
Watching a man die is never easy.

I am-and have been for many years-a bike lover, and it was a bright, sunny Friday afternoon in March in Palm Beach Gardens, Florida. My wife and I had just picked up our son from the airport, and traffic was heavy in all five lanes of northbound I-95. Many motorcyclists were out-and very, very few were wearing helmets.

All of the sudden, I found myself the fourth car on the scene of a crash. Though I hadn't seen it, I did see two bikes down on the inside, paved median. The last one had slammed into the guardrail of the overpass.

I quickly moved over to the grassy median, came to a quick stop and put on my flashers. Being a physician, I, along with my adult son, jumped out of the car. He called 911 as I ran to the first victim.

The first victim was awake and had good color. He appeared to be in his 20s, was well-dressed in new leathers and had a new, shiny full-face helmet that appeared unscratched. His eyes were open and they followed my movements-a good sign. There was no apparent bleeding, no obvious broken extremities. He was breathing well and seemed stable. One of the helpers said he was an EMT, so I said, "I have to go check the next victim."

About one hundred feet up the highway, I found the second victim. This guy was not so good. Someone was holding the victim's leather coat over the top of his head, purportedly to stop bleeding. A quick assessment showed the victim to be probably in his 50s. He had on an old T-shirt, blue jeans, weathered boots and a jacket that looked loved. I could see no helmet. He appeared to be experienced and was probably running tail gunner in this group of motorcycles.

The victim's eyes were dazed, open and did not blink. His breathing was infrequent and had an abnormal Cheyne-Stokes pattern (indicating some probable serious brain injury). This is not a good pattern and is often seen in terminal patients. We left after the ambulances arrived and later heard on the news that he, alone, had died.

So what had happened? Here's the way I see it. It was a group ride (what they were doing in the fastest-moving lane at high speed, however, I don't know), but it appears the first rider was seriously over his skill and comfort levels. Perhaps someone in a vehicle had cut in front of him, or didn't see him, when they'd jumped lanes. The rider had served left, lost control and went down. The second rider, more experienced but without a helmet, did not have time to react. He had also crashed ... but had died.

We saw other motorcyclists that day-many of whom wore no helmet. They looked nonchalant, with big smiles on their faces. All I could think was, You've not seen what I saw today.

Karl J. Klein, M.D.
GWRRA # 126321
Cookeville, TN

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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby cardinal » Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:48 pm

I am against Helmet and Seat Belt laws because they violate Darwins Law.
In fact, they deprive the the group I consider the more responsibly fit of a large pool of organ donors. So the wrong gene pool is being preserved.

Risk vs. Reward.....the reward of a fresh wind in my (thinning) hair is not worth the risk of the pain I may suffer or the misery my family may be subjected to.

Edited to add: Yes I know that a helmet and good riding gear doesn't always save the rider. But they sure increase the odds of survival.

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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby GreenDragon » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:43 pm

I am an ATGATT advocate. I have to mention one thing that has not been brought up. In the desert, full sun, you do not see natives in minimal dress, they are covered with clothing to protect them from the sun and keep them cooler. I have been wearing all the gear all the time for many years. Not only does it protect me from sun damage, it also keeps me cooler by keeping the sun off my skin and also providing cooling through retaining perspiration to be drawn off in a cooling evaporation. With out the gear on, that does not work near as well and you are not protected from anything.
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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby rono24 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:45 am

I am one of those people I ride with sorts and t shirt but I do wear my helmet,I have never rode with flip flops and will never,I have been rideing for over 50 years and will not change,I like being comfortable when I ride and when i get where I am going. I do understand the consequences of going down so I try to ride more aware of what is happening around me,been down a couple of times but had my full dress on both times and no injuries.

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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby WingAdmin » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:24 pm

GreenDragon wrote:I am an ATGATT advocate. I have to mention one thing that has not been brought up. In the desert, full sun, you do not see natives in minimal dress, they are covered with clothing to protect them from the sun and keep them cooler. I have been wearing all the gear all the time for many years. Not only does it protect me from sun damage, it also keeps me cooler by keeping the sun off my skin and also providing cooling through retaining perspiration to be drawn off in a cooling evaporation. With out the gear on, that does not work near as well and you are not protected from anything.


What a lot of people don't realize is that if it is over 96 degrees out, particularly if it's sunny, you will actually get HOTTER riding with no protective gear. The wind will evaporate any sweat before it has the opportunity to cool you, and the wind, which is hotter than your body temperature, will warm you up. If it gets much warmer, or you stay out too long in this condition, and you will give yourself heatstroke, which can be deadly.

Having gear on traps the sweat, and allows it to evaporate more slowly, so your body can cool itself.

Something else to think about: Your radiator cools your engine by taking heat from the engine and dumping it into the air that is forced through it. The air forced through the radiator is warmed a certain amount. If the surrounding ambient air temperature is 100 degrees, it is very easy for this air to be warmed to 130, 140 degrees and more. If the temperature of your skin reaches 111 degrees, it will burn - second and third degree burns will start at 111 degrees. The longer the exposure, and the higher the temperature, the worse the burn. Higher temperatures burn faster.

If you have radiator air at 140 degrees blowing on the bare skin of your leg, you can expect fairly severe burns in short order. You might not even realize it until you stop. I've also heard of people being burned in this way when trying to get cooler by wearing only shorts underneath mesh protective pants.

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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby cardinal » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:54 pm

WingAdmin wrote:
GreenDragon wrote:........ I've also heard of people being burned in this way when trying to get cooler by wearing only shorts underneath mesh protective pants.


I didn't get burned, but I can attest to the fact that shorts under mesh is hotter than long pants.
I rode from Fresno to Vegas in June with the vent ducts all stuck open on my '95 wing. I started feeling that stinging sensation you get when you are receiving a slow burn, so I stopped at a rest stop just outside of Borax to put on long pants. Not only did the stinging on my shins stop, my legs were a lot more comfortable because it was cooler both abobe and below the knee.

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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby trikeman II » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:14 pm

I agree, I have a trike with all the lights and still people pull out in front of ya. They look at ya and just the expression on their faces tells me they don't care. I wear my gear even to go down the road and back.
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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby kerrsys » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:52 am

Gotta be visible....Hi Vis stuff and Helmets ALL OF THE TIME!

In the US,we've got this whole EZ Rider history, so many grew up thinking it wasn't cool unless you wore a leather vest and a tank top. This isn't the case in other places.

Just got back from a trip in to the UK...There Hi Vis is the new "black leather" -- everyone is wearing a helmet and Hi Vis clothing!

We need that here -- especailly with so many cagers and their cell phones.

Ride Safe!
JK

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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby pudd750 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:05 pm

kerrsys wrote:Gotta be visible....Hi Vis stuff and Helmets ALL OF THE TIME!

In the US,we've got this whole EZ Rider history, so many grew up thinking it wasn't cool unless you wore a leather vest and a tank top. This isn't the case in other places.

Just got back from a trip in to the UK...There Hi Vis is the new "black leather" -- everyone is wearing a helmet and Hi Vis clothing!

We need that here -- especailly with so many cagers and their cell phones.

Ride Safe!
JK

zero (0) solid color (green, orange)? fluorescent helmets in helmet showrooms- (special order only)? of all things, most helmets look camouflaged ! ! !
of course motorcycle dealers must try to ignore the invisibility of their product

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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby wjnfirearms » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:22 am

Brian, I hope that you didn't consider my comments before chastising you for your choices. I wouldn't do that.

My comments and beliefs come from the same place that Dr. Klein's come from. Even helmeted riders make mistakes or end up in the wrong circumstances that cost them dearly. I've seen helmeted riders die because they failed to buckle the helmet on and the rider went one way, the helmet another. Sometimes, the helmet isn't going to make any difference. Still, the facts don't lie. I know what I know and have seen what I've seen, just like the good doctor. We all make our choices for our own reasons.
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Re: What is wrong with these people?

Postby WingAdmin » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:13 pm

pudd750 wrote:zero (0) solid color (green, orange)? fluorescent helmets in helmet showrooms- (special order only)? of all things, most helmets look camouflaged ! ! !
of course motorcycle dealers must try to ignore the invisibility of their product


Not everywhere - Cyclemax has some high-viz stuff in their showroom now. And you can see it in some catalogs - Aerostitch has a ton of it.




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