A novel way of fixing starter clutch squeal


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ned
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A novel way of fixing starter clutch squeal

Postby ned » Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:52 am



HI all,

I am in the process of repairing/washing the starter clutch (sprag clutch). there are two ways to approach this:
a. change the oil after a flush and replace it. The process should wash the clutch off gunk accumulated and free the thing up to operate normally, and
b. pull the rear cover off after engine removal and fix the thing. Replace seals and bearings when at it.

I will do the second if the first fails.

But I am thinking about drilling an inspection hole in the cover that will look look at the clutch end of the clutch/alternator assembly. I want to do this so that I can "inject" or spray engine flush liquid directly onto the offending rollers and fee them up. The hole will be 1/4" or so max, just enough to spray the martial through the straw onto the rollers.

The hole will be tapped and sealed using a plug, like the sump plug.

Now I have no idea if this would work, or even if there is enough space between chain and the clutch to be of any use. What do you all think?



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scotterichmond
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Re: Srater clutch sqeal

Postby scotterichmond » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:11 am

I don't see anything wrong with it, just make sure the drill filings stay on the outside of the engins and don't go inside. Maybe use a vacuum ? or drill into grease?

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terryt
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Re: Srater clutch sqeal

Postby terryt » Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:05 pm

Hi Ned. I think it might be a bit tight for the inspection hole. Plus it will be impossible to get to the rollers to spray them with the fluid. Have a look at these photos.
Has the bike been parked up for a while?
alternator rotor
alternator rotor
Attachments
same as above
same as above
starter clutch caps and springs
starter clutch caps and springs
starter drive sprocket
starter drive sprocket

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Re: Srater clutch sqeal

Postby ned » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:39 pm

Hi Terryt,


Thank you for the great pics. Yes it is a tight fit and there is no or little room for an inspection hole, but there might be enough to put a 1/4" spray hole to soak the region with thin and penetrating solvent... something like WD40 or similar. All it has to do is penetrate the gap and loosen the sludge deposit around the rollers.

Yes, it was parked for a few weeks. I was in the process of fixing the timing belts and the starter motor. When I went to start the motor, it started in a usual way, but there was this squeal at the back of the motor that sounded a bit like a stuffed bearing. I kept reading about the problems at the rear of the motor and the overwhelming number of posts are about Sprag clutch misbehaviour. This is common in K100 BMW bikes as well so I thought to wash/flush and see how it goes.

I accept that I will have to pull the motor at some time, but I hope to wash the problem away and refill the sump with pure synthetic oil and run that for a while. There is plenty of evidence that thinner synthetics have a good solvent properties and will cure problems related to oil sludge deposits.

So there is the full story on this. Any suggestions/help is appreciated.

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Re: Srater clutch sqeal

Postby terryt » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:23 am

Hi Ned. I have just looked at this again
The starter clutch has 3 small holes that go through to the rollers and springs.

The smaller hole is the one you need to get to. The larger one don’t go through


Here I show were you would need to drill your hole. I would surjest at least an 8mm. the best place for it is between the engine mount and casing bolt.

And it needs to be 13mm in from the edge of the rear casing

Then once you have drilled and tapped the inspection hole you can get the nozzle of your penetrating oil located in the hole in the starter clutch

hope this is of some help to you. or any other member with the same problem

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Re: Srater clutch sqeal

Postby seabee_ » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:54 am

Do they sell Seafoam or any products like it where you are? It is great stuff to add into the crankcase oil to clean things out. It will also help to clean the sprag clutch out. Some people have tried a regular motor flush with some success. If you use a motor flush don't ride too much with it. Better to let it idle in the driveway so no undue stress on the bearings. Seafoam is good stuff that you can ride easy with it for about 100 miles and then do an oil and filter change.
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Re: Srater clutch sqeal

Postby ned » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:05 am

Fantastic work, thank you Terryt,

I did look at that little hole in your first post, but didn't think that it was of any use. I imagine that they are there to help move oil around.

From my point of view it is more than I hoped for :) not only do I have 3 holes to use, but also they go directly to the problem spot. I will definitely try the approach you suggested.

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Re: Srater clutch sqeal

Postby ned » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:36 pm

seabee_ wrote:Do they sell Seafoam or any products like it where you are? It is great stuff to add into the crankcase oil to clean things out. It will also help to clean the Sprag clutch out. ....


Hi, I haven't seen Seafoam here, but i do believe that it is available. In this case I favour a pressure pack can at this stage with a spray like WD50 or similar with added lubricant. Even foaming engine degreaser will do the trick as I'll use very little of it. I will try to put a hole in the case as described by Terryt in his pics first.

It is true that I will have to flush the motor at some stage because after a few oil changes using diesel oils and a range of viscosity I've found that black deposit and oil screen is still not the best.

I am also toying with the idea of using an ATF addition to my oil just before I change it. The viscosity of this oil is around 5w-20 so a 1.5L addition to the sump may help.

Another thing is to use 1L top-of-the range synthetic like 0w-20 and ride it for a bit in hope that well known solvent properties and thin oil will clean out the clutch and other corners of the motor.

I'll have another look at other people's experience before I try, however, I need to fix the clutch first :)

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Re: Srater clutch sqeal

Postby seabee_ » Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:40 am

When you drill and tap the hole coat the drill bit and tap with lots of grease to catch most of the filings. This will cut down on the amount that can fall into the crankcase.
Paul
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Re: Srater clutch sqeal

Postby terryt » Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:33 pm

Ned. I had some free time. So I had a go at fitting this service inspection hole to an old spare engine that I have. I drilled a hole in the position that I mentioned earlier in the rear case and tapped it out. Now I have used a gas test nipple with the centre drilled out to take the nozzle from a spray can. Like some one mentioned before use oil or grease to stop the swaf from falling into the engine.
service hole you can just see the hole in the rotor
service hole you can just see the hole in the rotor

All the drilling and tapping that I have done were with the rear casing removed from the engines
Now if you do this with the engine still in the frame. Be very careful, as there is only 8mm from the outside of the case to the alternator rotor. You can see from this photo the shoulder of the test nipple the end of the wire. The casing is about 4mm thick
depth of hole
depth of hole

And here it is all fitted and the spray pipe inserted into the rotor down to the starter clutch rollers
nozle hose inserted into rotor
nozle hose inserted into rotor

This is what it looks like all done and finished. It took about 2hrs in all to do. :)
finished item
finished item

Ned if you cant tap out the casing for what ever reason. have a look at these for plugging the hole
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140751708577? ... 1423.l2649

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Re: Srater clutch sqeal

Postby Fred Camper » Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:53 pm

Purdy darn innovative mod. Looks very effective.

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Re: Srater clutch sqeal

Postby ned » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:52 pm

Thank you Terry. That nails it, great job. I really like the mushroom plug idea as I will only look in there very occasionally and as there is no oil pressure nor is the plug constantly in the oil like the sump plug, I don't see any problems with simply plugging the hole. Also, I can simply use some sealant to make things a little more permanent if I decide to do that.

I will definitely give this a go as soon as get some plugs.

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Re: Starter clutch sqeal

Postby moffat » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:03 pm

Good innovative thinking on the modification. BUT severak previous memebrs on other issues say do not use synthetic oils in old wings as they have a wet clutch and syntetics have addatives that can cause clutch slip????

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Re: Starter clutch sqeal

Postby ned » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:58 pm

moffat wrote:Good innovative thinking on the modification. BUT severak previous memebrs on other issues say do not use synthetic oils in old wings as they have a wet clutch and syntetics have addatives that can cause clutch slip????


Hi, yes, I know about the oil debate. It is a pity that there is so much miss information about synthetics.

wet clutch: use synthetics that conform to JACO MA standard. This is the standard used by ALL motorcycle oils and it ensures no FRICTION modfiers are used to mess with the wet clutch.
a. you can just get synthetic oil from the bike shop (read expensive), or
b. use oil that complys with the standard (stated on the container label), for example this one (my local producer):
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/pis_pdfs/1 ... 202012.pdf

Why GW didn't use synthetics in 197? : simply the oil didn't exist as a consumer item. The major advantages of synthetics (Type 4 or 5) oils is that they will not loose viscosity, have better protection (oil film strength), are thinner and pump better and finally they are a good solvent/detergent so that they keep the internals clean. BMW K100 people have documented that sprag clutches are cleaned and fixed by using synthetics.

I know that this will start another oil debate, but if you search around and read manufacturer's literature u will find that a lot of wet clutch modern bikes use these oils.

PS. 1. you will get "I've been using ... for years, chenged evey 3000m and ...". Yes, that is all true and if u change regularly and don't do short trips mineral oil is adequate and u can't go wrong.
2. I rather use these modern oils than engine flushes on changes etc.

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Re: Srater clutch sqeal

Postby Fred Camper » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:41 pm

Honda also used ATF as fork oil, as that was the standard in the early years. Now fork oil is common, so if you think you need to avoid synthetic engine oil then you may have the opinion that ATF in the fork is the only way to go as well. Not all of us share that opinion.

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Re: Srater clutch sqeal

Postby ned » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:31 am

Hi all,
I like to put this one to bed. First of all, thank you Terryt for doing all the testing for me. I finally got the girl out and finished the job.

1. I've drilled the hole just like Terry described (see pics above). I think that 14mm from the edge is a better than 13mm but this is not important.
2. I used a 1/8" BSP fitting (tank valve) but 1/8" NPT is almost the same, so suit your self.


3. I've found that a syringe is a perfect tool to inject oil into the clutch mechanism (Spregg clutch, yes?). A few mls per hole, 3 holes in total. Use the kick starter mechanism to advance between holes.
4. each hole is 4mm in diameter and their function is to allow the oil to flow through the clutch. I have no idea how the oil gets into the clutch in the first place, but it does.

5. I don't have a final pic but Terry has supplied the final product with the plug in place (see earlier posts).

I refilled the sump with 5w-40 semi-synthetic diesel oil, Penrite a local respected brand. The clutch engauged but barely... anyway the bike started and I got it idling until she got hot. After that she started without problems.

Took her for a ride each day. It was all fixed!!! The bike now starts like brand new.

Added bonus:
a. diesel semisynthetic oil cleaned the internals so well that I was bale to look at the oil level glass and see the level from the distance without bending down :) and
b. the long standing problem of a glowing neutral light through all the gears has been solved after the first ride!! it got cleaned up and now it works as intended ( glows in neutral only).

Again, thank you Terry for doing all the hard work of testing the concept. The good story is that it WORKED!

A word of caution. Use any high detergent oil, in my case semi sythetic diesel because it was rated for wet clutch operation (JASO MA standard), ie, make sure that it does not have friction modifiers, else it will make the clutch slip.
I imagine that full synthetic oil will do just as well.

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Re: Starter clutch sqeal

Postby Fred Camper » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:51 pm

What an excellent write up, thank you for the follow up post.

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Re: Starter clutch sqeal

Postby ned » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:27 pm

moffat wrote:Good innovative thinking on the modification. BUT severak previous memebrs on other issues say do not use synthetic oils in old wings as they have a wet clutch and syntetics have addatives that can cause clutch slip????


No, not a function of oil being synthetic. It is simply the additives like friction modifiers they add especially for low viscosity car oils like ?w-20 or ?w-30. The best thing to do is to look for the JASO MA specification quoted on the bottle. If it is there it is safe for wet clutch application.

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Re: A novel way of fixing starter clutch squeal

Postby fauslyfox110 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:28 pm

Is this effective for a 1979 gl1000? I am having a few starter clutch issues too, seems like a easy mod.

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ned
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Re: A novel way of fixing starter clutch squeal

Postby ned » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:50 pm

fauslyfox110 wrote:Is this effective for a 1979 gl1000? I am having a few starter clutch issues too, seems like a easy mod.


I can't imagine that they changed things inside 3 years, but it pays to check.

You would only do this to solve the sticking clutch problems.

Also, use of high detergent diesel oil will clean your engine VERY clean so depending on the mileage and state of the engine, i would keep an eye on the filter and oil ... maybe even change them both as soon as your clutch is feed up.

I've see references to doubts expressed about the wisdom of flushing the engine clean.

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Re: A novel way of fixing starter clutch squeal

Postby rudolphwolven » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:54 am

I did this modification today; it is very easy, took me a total of 1 hour; and gave me a very comfortable feeling afterwards.
For the closure/pluge I modified a ss philipsscrew of approx 15 mm thread length and outer thread width of 5 mm.
The tip of the ss philipsscrew was pointed a little and partially flatted with a simple grinder; in this way (the flattening) I created a selftapping ss screw.
I did bore a hole in the housing at first with a 2 mm steel drill and then with a 4 mm steel drill (both at low speed)
With some force and special attention towards a proper radial lining I "tapped" the modified ss philipsscrew into the 4 mm thick body of the housing. The tapping went excellent; several times during drilling and tapping I used a vacuum cleaner to remove the very small chips; a nice thread (see picture) was the final result.
The distance to the opposite housing applied was 14 mm (not 13 mm. as a previous visitor advised), however afterwards I saw that 14,5-15 mm would have been the best, actually it does not really matter, the 3 holes on the starter clutch to inject lubricant to avoid squealing of the clutch were very easily spotted with a torch.
The ss philipsscrew was shortened in length with the grinder to a total thread length of 6,5 mm and screwed into the housing, closed with an o-ring. Eventually in the future I could apply a (double) fiber ring as a closure.












MANY THANKS TO ALL PREVIOUS POSTERS, WHICH DRAW MY ATTENTION TO THIS PROBLEM AND ENABLED A DIY-SOLUTION !
Last edited by rudolphwolven on Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:52 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: A novel way of fixing starter clutch squeal

Postby terryt » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:55 am

Hi I am glad that this is of some help to you. saves hours. taking engine out,rear gaskets and so on
The 13mm was spot on for the engine I had on the bench. with a 3 mm hole drilled in the gas test valve to suit the spray nozzle. slid straight down to the sprag starter clutch springs and rollers as in the photo
So it looks like there may be some slight deviation on these engines. But in all if we are talking 1 or 2 mm to get a nozzle through a 5 mm hole into the alternator that's not bad. Thanks

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Re: A novel way of fixing starter clutch squeal

Postby rudolphwolven » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:17 pm

@ terryt
Yes, thank you very much..........
The Dutch Goldwing-guru "Harry" advised shortly after my modification to drill the hole behind the small heat-protection cover shield ....then the access spot remains hidden.
Indeed, a very goog idea imo!
Regards, Ruud
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Re: A novel way of fixing starter clutch squeal

Postby ned » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:26 pm

rudolphwolven wrote:@ terryt
........
The Dutch Goldwing-guru "Harry" advised shortly after my modification to drill the hole behind the small heat-protection cover shield ....then the access spot remains hidden.
Indeed, a very goog idea imo!
Regards, Ruud


I like the use of the o ring seal. When we did this originally I was always concerned with the amount of "meat" that we there to tap a hole and screw in a bolt. Pemanent hole with a cap seem to provide a way of gaining access without using the limited amount of thread that can be easily stripped when SS bolt is used.

Good to see it worked for you and I hope that you don't have to use the mod :)

Ned

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Re: A novel way of fixing starter clutch squeal

Postby rudolphwolven » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:17 am

Thanks Ned,
Eventually, in the near future I will replace the "high" SS phillipsscew (which I now used because I had a spare one left) with a "low" one; one with a "mushroom" head or with a "torx" head.........
Regards, Ruud







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