Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid


Technical information and Q&A applicable to all years and models of Goldwings
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Hoosier Jack
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Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby Hoosier Jack » Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:38 pm



Please see the picture. Putting my carburetors back on and tightening up the manifolds, then I got stupid. The last one and they were all very tight but this one got me. There is a bit poking out at the top, so how would be the best way to get it out?




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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby WingAdmin » Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:50 pm

Aw, jeez. Not much there to grab onto. If you have a welder, or access to one, you can tack another bolt onto the end of it, then use it to remove both. Otherwise, you're left with very gently drilling a hole into the top of the bolt (file the surface flat first to make sure the bit doesn't skip off into the aluminum), then using an E-Z Out type device to back it out.

When you do work on removing it, first soak it in a penetrant like PB Blaster for a day. When you're ready, heat the whole area, then freeze the bolt with some freezing solution (comes in a can, usually for testing electronics, you spray it on and it makes it super cold). That makes the bolt contract while the aluminum it is seated in is still warm and expanded, so you have a better chance of breaking it free and backing it out instead of breaking off the brittle E-Z Out inside the bolt - in which case you're in deeper trouble. :)

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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby ct1500 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:57 pm

Assuming it was the original bolt and did not break from bottoming out and threaded in easily meaning threads were good it should be easy to back out.

Cut a flat across it with cut off wheel from die grinder or dremel and use a regular flat screwdriver. If it needs a little more pop you can use an impact driver from above with extension.

It is well away from o ring sealing surface so if the wheel cuts a little bit into head I would not lose any sleep over it.
Last edited by ct1500 on Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby Hoosier Jack » Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:59 pm

Those are good instructions. I am going to buy an E-Z out and see what I can do. I wonder if those Speed Outs you see advertised work? Should I take off the head and take it to a machinist?

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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby WingAdmin » Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:08 pm

That's a good point - you've got enough sticking out that you might be able to use a hacksaw to cut a slot in it, then use an impact screwdriver with a flat blade to knock it free.

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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby MikeB » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:14 pm

If cutting a slot in the stub is what you have in mind, I'd suggest a Dremel tool with a cutting disk in a mandrel to cut the slot that way. Once you have the screwdriver slot cut, try backing the broken off screw out. Clearance would be a problem with most any other type of tool.

Also, a Dremel tool with the sanding drum or cutting disk on it will make short work of the stubs sharp/jagged end and flatten it out quickly and precisely if you are of a mind to drill it and use an easy out. Once flat, a center punch can be used on the flat end of the stub. Then use the smallest drill bit you have to start the hole prior to trying to use an easy out. Keeping the drill centered on the screw stub and keeping the drill from wandering to the edge of the screw is extremely important. One little slip and you will be drilling into the threads.
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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby Mh434 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:31 pm

If you plan on using an Easy-out type tool, I'd suggest getting the ones that are like a tapered, square shank, rather than the reverse-threaded type. The reason I say this is because the latter type are made of a very hard, but extremely brittle material. I've broken a LOT of those off over the years, and the results of that don't bear thinking about.

The square shank type, however, are spring-tempered, can twist a considerable amount during use, and are far less prone to breaking off in the broken bolt. At least, that's my experience. I've used several of this type, and have never been able to break one.

Here's a pic of the ones I like -
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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby MikeB » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:01 pm

I agree. Those have worked very well for me in the past as well.
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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby redial » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:18 pm

An excellent discussion, with lots of hints, tips, and tricks to do the job successfully. While reading all these, I thought I would check the 'robber' site, and they are offering the squarish ones for about AU$11.50.

I also came across another interesting item in amongst these tools:

Ebay 111593994529

I would be most interested in hearing comments about this approach, as it might work in some instances. Thanks.
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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby roadwanderer2 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:32 pm

redial wrote:An excellent discussion, with lots of hints, tips, and tricks to do the job successfully. While reading all these, I thought I would check the 'robber' site, and they are offering the squarish ones for about AU$11.50.

I also came across another interesting item in amongst these tools:

Ebay 111593994529

I would be most interested in hearing comments about this approach, as it might work in some instances. Thanks.


redial, I have this tool, the area that he needs to put the broken bolt is isn't long enough for this tool to work. you need to slide the broken bolt/stud up into it thru the bottom. its main usage is for removing broken exhaust manifold studs where you have at LEAST 1/2" to grab onto and other broken stud bolts. I used to have one when I was working for Midas muffler, and I bought one again a few months ago to remove a broken stud from the bottom of my fork tube, which worked VERY well once I removed the axle retaining collar. he doesn't have enough length on that broken bolt for this tool to grab. trust me, it wont work. he has 4 ways to get that bolt out, 1-get it flat with the manifold and notch it for a flat head screw driver, 2- get it flat with the manifold, drill it 1/4" deep and use an e z out, 3-get it flat with the manifold, center punch it, drill it out and re tap the threads and put a new bolt in it, try to get a needle nose vise grip pliers on it and turn it out.

stuart.
Last edited by roadwanderer2 on Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby redial » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:40 pm

"Tooling" is not my strong suit, so that is why I asked the question, and got a good response - thanks.

I have some skills, that are getting a bit rusty now, but I still like to think that the rust has not accumulated too far. :P
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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby ct1500 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:45 pm

redial wrote:I also came across another interesting item in amongst these tools:

Ebay 111593994529

I would be most interested in hearing comments about this approach, as it might work in some instances. Thanks.


Those are the ultimate gripping remover for medium to large stud fasteners. They are offset when using and need clearance to turn so far small fasteners there is usually not enough room, smaller studs would typically be in a closer quarter enviroment to other components.

Indispensible for removing old rusted and seized head pipe studs from exhaust manifolds after first heating cherry red with torches.
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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby roadwanderer2 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:51 pm

ct1500 wrote:
redial wrote:I also came across another interesting item in amongst these tools:

Ebay 111593994529

I would be most interested in hearing comments about this approach, as it might work in some instances. Thanks.


Those are the ultimate gripping remover for medium to large stud fasteners. They are offset when using and need clearance to turn so far small fasteners there is usually not enough room, smaller studs would typically be in a closer quarter enviroment to other components.

Indispensible for removing old rusted and seized head pipe studs from exhaust manifolds after first heating cherry red with torches.


you are correct, but they also make a cylindrical type of stud extractor. snap on is one of them and its made to use in tight spaces. it comes in a kit and can be bought from most of the "mobile tool trucks" that you see going to garages and muffler shops.

stuart.

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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby roadwanderer2 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:13 pm

redial wrote:"Tooling" is not my strong suit, so that is why I asked the question, and got a good response - thanks.

I have some skills, that are getting a bit rusty now, but I still like to think that the rust has not accumulated too far. :P


that's ok redial, im only speaking from my 23 years of working experience in the auto exhaust industry, not including my "younger years before I started working on cars for a living. actually, custom pipe bending was my "specialty". I used to make exhaust systems for motorhomes, school buses, ambulances, limos, hot rods, race cars, show cars, antiques, classics and other vehicles. I could take a 36" braising rod, go under a vehicle, bend it to conform to the vehicles undercarriage, walk over to the pipe bending machine and make it, bring it over the vehicle, place it up under the car and it would be a perfect fit just about every time. I've worked on new cars, old cars, rolls Royce's, lotuses Bentleys and other high end vehicles as well as your common every day vehicles. I was very good at my job and I miss it. wish I could go back to it, but I cant. life dealt me a bad hand and I had to retire 2 years before I wanted to. but its history and I just go day by day now.

stuart.

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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby roadwanderer2 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:31 pm

if you go onto eBay and type this into the searchbox..........BROKEN DAMAGED SCREW EXTRACTOR it will bring up a whole page of tools that are made to remove broken studs/bolts/screws. the 3rd one down is the set I have along with the broken manifold stud remover.

stuart.

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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby Aussie81Interstate » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:09 pm

I'll add my two cents worth here as well.

I wouldn't use an EZ-out if you have never used them before - they can create a permanent problem that you would not like.

Best method I feel would be to :
1. get the area flat by using the nominated method of flat file or dremel tool etc.
2. Use a centre punch on the outside of the threaded section and belt it with a hammer to try and loosen the broken end of the bolt thread left. Using the centrepunch with a view to undoing the thread obviously. If it won't break loose - then cut a slot with the dremel tool and use the same punch to again try and undo the threaded section (use penetrating fluid or freeze the thread etc) - as soon as it starts to move - spray some penetrating fluid around the area then tap it tight then loose again - when it is out far enough grab a pair of vice grips and turn it out. :)

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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby Hoosier Jack » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:02 am

I got back from watching a basketball game last night and seen the replies and I appreciate all of the suggestions. I am going to try notching out a slot for a flat head with my Dremel to twist this out. I have never used the EZout but wouldn't be afraid to try. It's funny, all the years I've refurbed bikes that I haven't done something like this. The only thing close was on those stupid, soft screws that they used on sprocket covers instead of bolts or hex heads.

I'll try this today and post up afterwards.

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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby HawkeyeGL1200 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:10 am

I don't know if you can get a drill in where the stud is broken off. If the engine is out of the frame (again, I don't know) it is a lot easier to work on it.

I like the suggestions to try to slot the broken piece and turn it out. I'd soak it down good with the penetrating oil of your choice, and if slotting and turning it out doesn't work, my next suggestion would be to try to drill all the way through the center of the broken piece as this will often relieve the binding between the threads of the fastener and the bike. I would NOT recommend an "easy out" as they spread the stud/bolt and this could lead to damage to the motorcycle in a place it can't really be fixed, other than using a heli-coil insert, which I have never seen in that size...

Patience is the order of the day, no matter which path you choose. You seem like a guy who will take his time and use a great deal of care... which is exactly what a pain in the neck situation like this calls for. Best advice I can give is, if you find yourself getting frustrated with it, Walk away for a time LOL

Good luck!
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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby roadwanderer2 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:33 am

if you remove the false tank shelter can you get to it?..........the smallest heil-coil I've seen is a 1/4". those threads look like either an 8 x1/25 or an 10 x1.25 which if drilled out, its possible it can be retapped to its original size if he uses a bit that's exactly the same size as the bolt. you would have to take one of the other bolts and match the diameter of the bolt and drill bit. get that broken bolt flat across and center punch it exactly in the middle so you can slowly start drilling it without having the bit go off center. once the bit reaches the bottom of the bolt, you'll be able to feel it. work your way up diameter wise to a millimeter size smaller of the hole then retap the threads to what the size of the bolt is.

hawkeye is right, what's needed here is patience, don't rush thru it otherwise you'll break the drill bit, and you don't want to do that when the bit is inside the hole.

stuart.

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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby HawkeyeGL1200 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:26 am

I've probably removed several hundred (Maybe 500?) broken studs in the past 30 years. The majority of them were located in a spot where I could use a magnetic base drill press to drill them out. If you're drilling them out, the single most important step is to get the top surface flat enough to accurately center punch the stud, so that you're fist (I call it pilot hole) bit starts in the center of the broken bolt.

At work, we had an ingenious individual who installed some studs in a series of strainers (for water treatment system) with an adhesive that holds better the hotter it gets.. When the time came to change the studs again, I got assigned the task. There are 24 studs in each strainer, and 16 strainers in total... each individual stud had to be cut off with a high speed grinder, "flat topped" and drilled all the way out the the threads, and then the individual threads had to be chiseled out of the mating threads. It was the single most tedious and aggravating job I've ever had in my life... it took me weeks to drill out all those studs, and NOTHING I knew about broken bolt/stud removal worked. So, I had to learn a new way to get those stupid-glued in studs out.

We tried welding a nut and using an impact wrench on them, and they broke before they came out... learning that the twisted ends of a broken bolt are harder than the bolt was before it twisted off is a lesson a person needs to learn before he breaks many bolts that way LOL... and I eventually made a "drill guide" that I could thread down on the stud(s) after I cut them off and made the tops flat, if I left three threads or so sticking up above the flange.. the guide allowed me to drill that first tiny hole directly in the center of the studs without center punching... and then the rest of the work went a little easier, but it still took almost an entire day to drill one stud... and there were many times I just had to walk away and drink a coke or something before starting all over again..

And, to this day, I can't hear that guy's name mentioned without my blood pressure getting all jacked out of place.
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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby littlebeaver » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:47 pm

I would use the flatten the top method, center punch and drill a small hole and increase the sizes of the drill bit,, I would use left handed drill bits... :shock:

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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby roadwanderer2 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:26 pm

littlebeaver wrote:I would use the flatten the top method, center punch and drill a small hole and increase the sizes of the drill bit,, I would use left handed drill bits... :shock:


LOL@ left handed drill bits. roflmao. that's good if your going in reverse :lol:.

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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby HawkeyeGL1200 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:44 pm

While left-hand twist drill bits aren't commonly available in big-box supply stores, they are available and are a great idea when you have a stuck and broken bolt or screw that needs removing. Since the rotation necessary to drive the bit coincides with the direction the broken screw needs to be turned in order to thread it out of the hole, it quite often will "encourage" the screw to back right out of the hole. I guess the head created in the drilling of a hole is enough to get the screw loose and to get it to back on out.

We use left hand bits in some cases.. where we can, and it isn't a joke... it's true as it can be. Truth be told, if it's possible to remove a broken stud in a lathe, the stud will unscrew more often than not, once the inside is relieved enough to allow whatever interference caused the fastener to break in the first place to let go.
I am wrong as often as I am right concerning what is wrong with someone else' motorcycle without having seen the machine in person. Guessing with limited information, as to the source of the trouble, is sketchy at best.

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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby littlebeaver » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:54 pm

Yeah, many times by the time you use the third larger drill bit, that sucker just unscrews...and Yes you use reverse....If you think about it drilling it with a common drill bit is only tightening it :shock: it makes sense to go the other way... It's is just my opinion that everyone should have a set of these, just in case ....I'm not Mr. know everything guy, but I have some experience in some things....http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywor ... vc1n2g5v_b

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Re: Of Broken Bolts and Being Stupid

Postby WingAdmin » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:42 pm

Yep, more than once I've been drilling a stuck bolt out with a left-handed bit, and whether it's the vibration, the heat, the torque, or a combination of all three, the thing will end up breaking free and backing right out without the use of an EZ-Out or anything else.




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