Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol


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suvcw04
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Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby suvcw04 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:12 pm



From the July Issue 0f Motorcyclist Mag the conclusion of the article, "Gasoline 101, Part 2, Lets talk about Ethanol"

Here are some quotes.
"Ethanol is a corrosive Liquid and can damage parts not meant to come in contact with it, causing hoses and gaskets to swell, deteriorate and distort."
"Phase separation can happen in as little as 30 days"
"The gasoline that is left may have an octane rating that could be in the low 80s"
"Make sure you use a quality fuel stabilizer"
"Increased engine heat, reduced milage, fuel system corrosion, and shorter shelf life are the direct problems motorcycles face today...."
"Leading the charge against E15 is the AMA...."
Paraphrase. The EPA says fueling a bike with E15 is illeagal.

So, my question to the Fuel industry is this. They say E10 is safe. E15 is not. Indeed, it is illegal. What's wrong with this picture???? That's like saying, "I am only a little pregnant"
(the article says it is going to avoid the politics here...and the economics, and the environmental impact)



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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby dingdong » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:25 am

Question......Are there any of you who can unequivocally attest that "their" bikes fuel systems have suffered damage from using "E10" gas? If so please let us know what the damage was. I have been using it since it's mandate in the 80s with no noticeable effects or damage to any of my bikes so I'm skeptical of "E10" causing any problems. Serious question, I would really like to know.

Tom
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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby suvcw04 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:07 pm

The major motorcycle manufacturers all say that using E15 will void your warranty.
Do you want to really know why there is corn in your gas: "Senator Chuck Grassley, Republican from Iowa, and his sons Pat and Robin Grassley collected $28,784 in USDA farm subsidies in 2012. That brings the family’s total farm subsidies in the past 16 years to more than $975,000. Grassley serves on the Agriculture, Nutrition and Forestry Committee." The one and only EPA proposal that Chuckie has ever agreed with is the E15. Wonder why?

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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby redial » Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:01 am

At one time, I was overseas for a few months, and when I came back the 250 mc hadnt been used in that time. It was impossible to start. I had to drain the fuel, and start again with fresh fuel. It then started ok. Flattened the battery though. That is my experience with ethanol, that I would not like to repeat. It was like trying to start with the kill switch activated, (dont ask me how I know that).
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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby HawkeyeGL1200 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:04 am

To answer your question, I cannot say "my" motorcycle(s) have suffered specifically from the ethanol in fuel. There are a few things I dislike about it...
#1: The big lie that "Ethanol" is somehow a "green" energy... it takes more BTU's to cook up ethanol than you get out of it.. where do these BTUs come from? The burning of fossil fuels, of course..

#2: I believe ethanol has a much lower ability to provide lubrication to the inside of my engine(s) than does gasoline. I add oil to my fuel to compensate for this in the motorcycles. I don't know if it matters.

#3: Fewer BTUs per pound in Ethanol than in gasoline that doesn't contain ethanol... so we're automatically taking a MPG hit every time we fuel up with a product that contains ethanol. I'm sure it has an effect on performance too... I just don't own a dyno so I can't prove it LOL

#4: Personal choice has been pretty much taken out of the equation for most of us. The majority of folks who don't like the product have to go to extraordinary measures not to burn it.

Sorry I turned your question into a rant.

Hawk

dingdong wrote:Question......Are there any of you who can unequivocally attest that "their" bikes fuel systems have suffered damage from using "E10" gas? If so please let us know what the damage was. I have been using it since it's mandate in the 80s with no noticeable effects or damage to any of my bikes so I'm skeptical of "E10" causing any problems. Serious question, I would really like to know.

Tom
I am wrong as often as I am right concerning what is wrong with someone else' motorcycle without having seen the machine in person. Guessing with limited information, as to the source of the trouble, is sketchy at best.

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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby dingdong » Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:51 am

Yeah I agree with all that. I'm just wondering if all the talk of, specifically, E10 causing rubber parts to fail is really happening. I can understand fuel like E85 causing problems with our older carb parts but in my experience E10 is not causing the problems some complain about on the forums.

Tom
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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby HawkeyeGL1200 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:08 am

As I wrote before, I have no proof there's damage being done. I can say this: The local motorcycle repair shop owner told me he makes most of his money these days by rebuilding gummed up carbs... which he says is directly related to ethanol. He has also told me the alcohol dissolves some of the metal of the carbs too... again, I've no proof to offer other than his words.

dingdong wrote:Yeah I agree with all that. I'm just wondering if all the talk of, specifically, E10 causing rubber parts to fail is really happening. I can understand fuel like E85 causing problems with our older carb parts but in my experience E10 is not causing the problems some complain about on the forums.

Tom
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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby suvcw04 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:07 pm

HawkeyeGL1200 wrote:To answer your question, I cannot say "my" motorcycle(s) have suffered specifically from the ethanol in fuel. There are a few things I dislike about it...
#1: The big lie that "Ethanol" is somehow a "green" energy... it takes more BTU's to cook up ethanol than you get out of it.. where do these BTUs come from? The burning of fossil fuels, of course..

#2: I believe ethanol has a much lower ability to provide lubrication to the inside of my engine(s) than does gasoline. I add oil to my fuel to compensate for this in the motorcycles. I don't know if it matters.

#3: Fewer BTUs per pound in Ethanol than in gasoline that doesn't contain ethanol... so we're automatically taking a MPG hit every time we fuel up with a product that contains ethanol. I'm sure it has an effect on performance too... I just don't own a dyno so I can't prove it LOL

#4: Personal choice has been pretty much taken out of the equation for most of us. The majority of folks who don't like the product have to go to extraordinary measures not to burn it.

Sorry I turned your question into a rant.

Hawk

dingdong wrote:Question......Are there any of you who can unequivocally attest that "their" bikes fuel systems have suffered damage from using "E10" gas? If so please let us know what the damage was. I have been using it since it's mandate in the 80s with no noticeable effects or damage to any of my bikes so I'm skeptical of "E10" causing any problems. Serious question, I would really like to know.

Tom


You left out WATER. It takes A LOT of water to get a gallon of ethanol. This site uses liters, but just multiply by 4 (close) to get gallons. I'll bet there isn't much of it produced in California. If there is, there SHOULDN'T be.

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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby f1xrupr » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:35 am

With help from a higher power than I, I own and operate a country general store-village post office-small engine repair service.
I have seen carb vacuum plugs from advance auto split in 2 weeks-rubber fuel hose split (at barbed fittings) in 2 months-removed amazing amounts of water from fuel tanks/systems, tried to re-use gas after separating the water out of it...IT WILL NOT WORK IN SOME ENGINES....
A couple weeks ago, I had a Honda rear tine rototiller come in (older model-nice machine-retailed for about $2000.00). It had a large hose clamp holding the bowl on the carb, and a stud sticking of the bottom of the bowl, with a nut screwed up on that. I'm in the country where people are on a fixed income, or less, and I get the feeling that people bring me stuff that other shops have rejected, and I know someone has tried to work on some of it...loose bolts, parts missing, hose clamps...that sort a thing....but these people need help too. They asked me ti get it running. (I think someone may have given it to them...IDK). A new carb was about $90.00 (my price), so, I didn't even bother to ask....
I removed the hose clamp, and the bottom of the carb where the bolt screws into that holds the bowl on, was gone-coroded away. The jet is also screwed up into that passage, and I could not get it out. The bolt for that was probably steel, and the carb being cast aluminum, is dis-similar metals, and, any form of water will encourage....oxidation?....(not sure what term to use there-mess it up!).
However (off topic), I was able to get that tiller running good for that fella, by using a u-bolt, and a piece of flat bar....drilled, to hold that bowl on (also a bolt, nut, and fiber washer to patch the hole in the bowl).
When rebuilding my goldwing carbs, my kit didn't come with any new seals for my plenumn. I soaked several types of o-rings in ethanol gas, and never found one that wouldn't swell. It's kinda funny-after they swell, you can lay them in the sun, and they will back to there normal size.
I reused my old plenumn seals-I figure if they leak, a good old shot of ethanol will fix it....
I run non ethanol in my bike, and try to use it in my small engines (I don't change gas unless necessary).
That's the short version, I could go on....yes...ethanol is bad for any system that is not designed for it! In fact, the owners manual for my wife's 2000 Subaru Outback says,"do not use ethanol".
I feel compelled to share my opinion now....considering the adverse affects as far as fuel mileage, the pollution created by uncontrolled farm machinery exhaust, possibly uncontrolled emissions from foreign plants that produce our rubber parts that we destroy with ethanol, driving up our fuel and grain costs, putting unnecessary hardships on auto (and other) industries, makes about as much since as a Baby Ruth in a punch bowl.
My exercise bike is a goldwing.

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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby suvcw04 » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:02 am

f1xrupr wrote:With help from a higher power than I, I own and operate a country general store-village post office-small engine repair service.
I have seen carb vacuum plugs from advance auto split in 2 weeks-rubber fuel hose split (at barbed fittings) in 2 months-removed amazing amounts of water from fuel tanks/systems, tried to re-use gas after separating the water out of it...IT WILL NOT WORK IN SOME ENGINES....
A couple weeks ago, I had a Honda rear tine rototiller come in (older model-nice machine-retailed for about $2000.00). It had a large hose clamp holding the bowl on the carb, and a stud sticking of the bottom of the bowl, with a nut screwed up on that. I'm in the country where people are on a fixed income, or less, and I get the feeling that people bring me stuff that other shops have rejected, and I know someone has tried to work on some of it...loose bolts, parts missing, hose clamps...that sort a thing....but these people need help too. They asked me ti get it running. (I think someone may have given it to them...IDK). A new carb was about $90.00 (my price), so, I didn't even bother to ask....
I removed the hose clamp, and the bottom of the carb where the bolt screws into that holds the bowl on, was gone-coroded away. The jet is also screwed up into that passage, and I could not get it out. The bolt for that was probably steel, and the carb being cast aluminum, is dis-similar metals, and, any form of water will encourage....oxidation?....(not sure what term to use there-mess it up!).
However (off topic), I was able to get that tiller running good for that fella, by using a u-bolt, and a piece of flat bar....drilled, to hold that bowl on (also a bolt, nut, and fiber washer to patch the hole in the bowl).
When rebuilding my goldwing carbs, my kit didn't come with any new seals for my plenumn. I soaked several types of o-rings in ethanol gas, and never found one that wouldn't swell. It's kinda funny-after they swell, you can lay them in the sun, and they will back to there normal size.
I reused my old plenumn seals-I figure if they leak, a good old shot of ethanol will fix it....
I run non ethanol in my bike, and try to use it in my small engines (I don't change gas unless necessary).


Like I said before: Ethanol in gas is like termites in your house. By the time you know you have a problem, it's too late.
BUT . . . save that few pennies a gallon and keep using E-crap.
That's the short version, I could go on....yes...ethanol is bad for any system that is not designed for it! In fact, the owners manual for my wife's 2000 Subaru Outback says,"do not use ethanol".
I feel compelled to share my opinion now....considering the adverse affects as far as fuel mileage, the pollution created by uncontrolled farm machinery exhaust, possibly uncontrolled emissions from foreign plants that produce our rubber parts that we destroy with ethanol, driving up our fuel and grain costs, putting unnecessary hardships on auto (and other) industries, makes about as much since as a Baby Ruth in a punch bowl.

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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby Dogsled » Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:48 pm

The first time I saw the ethanol sticker on the pump was just 'This gas contains up to govt allowed 20% ethanol' I was in Columbus, OH. This was a regular run but an off-beat stop on my wing to my other house. The Rte was the same the gas station was just a bit further than my regular stop. I never saw that before and went inside thinking I put some odd fuel in my bike. Owner said it was a govt sticker but their gas was 10%, the govt allowed up to 20% but his chain (Marathon) only went 10%. I had previously gone thru a big issue with BP about 'summer fuel' and lost out so I just said ok. My MPG just to get to my lodge was crazy low.....and a sure feel of lack of power was there.

I never added anything like ethanol stabilizers they are professing today. The bike never had any long term bad effects. All I noticed was the bad gas mileage. Never had a carb fail. They only seem affected by stations like the Velocity channel selling ethanol stabilizers. My issue was 8 years ago and I never addressed storage or riding damage. I just run a whole can of seafoam in each bike at stoage and ride them a bit to get thru the system.

Go on you tube and all the videos that say seafoam don't do anything.....Hey it's one can a year......with every fill-up I do add an ounce of 2 stroke oil per fillup and have ran like a champ. Both solutions are cheap (since gas isn't).

supposedly the new cars have fuel delivery systems that can handle ethanol.....so be it. I DON'T KNOW HOW OLD YOU ARE but if you went thru companies like Stabil etc. trying to capitalize on the LEADED/UN-LEADED switch. People bought those lead additives for a while til they realized others weren't and their cars weren't blowing up......who capitalized.......the additive companies, then and now.

I struggle to keep all my rides filled with pump gas alone let alone buying expensive additives that are unproven BUT.......people fell for 'WAR OF THE WORLDS', we can be suckered into anything.
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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby wing rider 2012 » Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:26 pm

I normally don't run alcohol fuels in my bike, there are a few stations here that sale alcohol free gas. I also have an app on my cell phone called "Pure Gas" that will give me locations of gas stations in the area I'm at that have alcohol free gas. The only time I will use E10 is if there is no other choice around.
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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby Dogsled » Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:08 pm

Yeah I seen that site. Trouble is there are no stations near me..... You're lucky
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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby wing rider 2012 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:14 am

From the Pure Gas web site it seems the Marathon gas stations carry alcohol free gas. In my area the 76 stations and a number of independent stations carry it, most of the time you have to ask where their alcohol free gas pump is located if it's your first time at the station.
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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby Dogsled » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:03 pm

There aren't any near me, real gas OR marathon. I just run the cheapest stuff I can get. other than crappy gas mileage, I don't see any damage. I can see me askin an attendent around here for pure gas......
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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby redial » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:41 pm

Hey Dogsled,
You have 7 Marathon stations in your area, with the nearest being 4.3 miles away from Boardman. That is about just right to fill up and get an ice cream in Columbus. :roll:
Len in Kapunda

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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby kybigmac » Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:32 am

Put ethanol in my chainsaw which has a hard plastic gas cap that screws into the metal body and I can barely get the cap unscrewed and screwed back in because it's swelled !

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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby golden highway » Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:19 pm

They say E10 is safe. E15 is not. Indeed, it is illegal. What's wrong with this picture????

Nothing. When you exceed the recmonded amount of anything bad things happen.

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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby suvcw04 » Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:30 pm

golden highway wrote:They say E10 is safe. E15 is not. Indeed, it is illegal. What's wrong with this picture????

Nothing. When you exceed the recmonded amount of anything bad things happen.


A little poison is OK. A little bit more is bad.

RIGHT!!!!

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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby Dogsled » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:17 am

Hey Redial, I looked at that pure gas and didn't see anything near me. I don't even remember seeing a Marathon near me. I guess I better check again. That was puregas.com?
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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby Dogsled » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:22 am

Redail. I just looked again and the closest I seen to me is Salem....and that ain't real close. Gimme the link you're looking at
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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby wing rider 2012 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:12 am

Dogsled wrote:Redail. I just looked again and the closest I seen to me is Salem....and that ain't real close. Gimme the link you're looking at


From what I can find from the various web sites, the closest alcohol free pumps to you would be at 480 Boardman Canfield Rd, Youngstown, OH. It is a GetGo gas station.

http://www.yellowpages.com/search-map/b ... s-stations
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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby redial » Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:43 am

I went to the Marathon website, and found their outlets there. I put in Boardman, OH, and it showed about 7 within the area.
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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby BikerBuck » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:59 pm

I'm with you DingDong. In the 50's and 60's all fuel related problems were blamed on bad gas from a particular station or poor maintenance. Nowadays it's all blamed on ethanol! Poor maintenance isn't a issue anymore.

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Re: Motorcyclist Mag article on Ethanol

Postby Dogsled » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:17 pm

All I blame with the ethanol is poor gas mileage......I can actually measure that and know it to be a fact.


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