Danger list


Technical information and Q&A applicable to all years and models of Goldwings
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Dogsled
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Danger list

Postby Dogsled » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:31 am



I just posted in the synthetic oil section and had this thought. Everyone was writing their favorite oil they, this reallly doesn't help a person looking to avoid pitfalls and make the right choice. So I thought maybe we can serve a real purpose by naming a product they used that actually damaged their bike or at least contributed to it. But you have to have proof!. You can't just say you put in 'Joes oil' and your bike blew up. If you took it to a shop and they said the oil did it, then that's proof.
Putting in a brand of spark plugs and having one bad one isn't reason to avoid that brand, I've found bad plugs in many different brands.
I'm talkin damage here, clutches going bad, parts grinding cause lube didn't work. This would help a person looking for the right lube rather than 50 people telling him what they use. ME, i've never found a bad oil and try to figure out the big controversy. I realize to some people their bike is a treasure and they put in the most expensive oil the can find....but that doen't make it the best, just makes you weird.. :lol:
I'm on a budget and like to change the oil often to keep it fresh and the viscosity high.
So out of everyone here, some products had to be downright damaging (or maybe not). A list of products to avoid because is better than a favorites list to someone seeking knowledge.....REMEMBER...YOU GOTTA SUBMIT PROOF OF THE DAMAGE. (and not your uncle bob talling you "Yep, theat oil blew her up"... :P ) Let the silence begin


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virgilmobile
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Re: Danger list

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:57 am

Yup,when I put that cup of sugar in the gas tank it really fouled things up.. :roll: not really :)

RexAubrey
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Re: Danger list

Postby RexAubrey » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:12 am

virgilmobile wrote:Yup,when I put that cup of sugar in the gas tank it really fouled things up.. :roll: not really :)


We keep on telling you that just because you like sweet tea that doesn't mean your GW will like sweet gas...

As far as oil goes, I have never had damage due to oil (lack there of is another story). Just make sure to avoid the oils that reduce friction if you are using in on a bike with a wet clutch.
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Re: Danger list

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:43 am

I was just trying to change the smell of the exhaust from the corn alcohol stink :D
Hey...I remember one time of a fuel additive that would change the exhaust smell..for true....something like a pine scent or something.....Hmmmm..was that a pine tree that just passed me???? :lol:

Look at what I found on the net..http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Fuel-Frag ... ,1656.html
I wonder what smell goes with speed ?? :?:

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Re: Danger list

Postby rcgreg » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:58 pm

There are better uses for Corn Alcohol than fuel ! :mrgreen:

Dogsled
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Re: Danger list

Postby Dogsled » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:04 pm

RexAubrey wrote:
virgilmobile wrote: Just make sure to avoid the oils that reduce friction if you are using in on a bike with a wet clutch.


I've used the friction reduced oil for years and never had a problem. What personal damage have you've had or seen that you're basing this statement on?

Heresay or reading an article doesn't count.
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Re: Danger list

Postby detdrbuzzard » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:43 am

years ago i did an oil change and some castrol gtx 20w50 ( for automobiles ) in the '75 cb750. it didn't damage the motor but it ran soo hot i never made it where i was going. i had to stop on the side of the road to let it cool down before returning home. once home i did another oil change. the gtx oil drained out like water. i refilled the bike with castrol oil for bikes and never had that problem again
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themainviking
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Re: Danger list

Postby themainviking » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:25 am

Amsoil claims that they will replace any engine that is proven to have failed because of using their oil - or used to make this claim when they were new in the marketplace.

The fact is that failure "due to the oil" is a virtual non sequitur. Failure "due to lack of oil" is what happens. So, it is almost impossible to prove that an engine failed due to the oil being used. Now the question - would a manufacturer deny warrantee based on what oil you have in your engine when it failed - yes - this could happen. As a previous poster mentioned, he had a very poor experience using oil formulated for a car in his motorcycle. This happening is a more likely occurrence than any other to do with oil. Oil prevents breakdown by insulating one metal part from another. I use Amsoil, and am permitted to sell it by virtue of the fact that I am a dealer. How much do I sell? Not very much. I pretty much buy it for myself and two or three friends, but that is because I am retired. I think any oil will protect your engine if used as the manufacturer recommends. Some oils perform better, some less well. Cost of the oil is usually a factor in its performance. Cheapo oil performs less well, and so needs to be changed more often, or not used at all. If anyone is looking for a really cheap oil to put in their motorcycle, my opinion is that they do not respect their motorcycle. It is like the fat kid who eats nothing but junk food, expecting to get skinny, while doing nothing but sit and play his video game. There is nothing basically wrong with the fat kid, but it ain't likely to happen. It also ain't likely that your motorcycle is going to perform it's best on junk food oil, but it will not likely break down because of it, at least not so you could prove the oil did it.

One large point is that several automobile manufacturers and the state of California have done some studies which drew the conclusion that the 3,000 mile oil change is a myth. Auto recommendations are now 5 to 7 K miles, with synthetics going longer, and some models come already filled with synthetics. They did not mention motorcycles in the study, probably because neither Ford, GM nor Chrysler make any and they are California's partners in the studies. The point they are making is that it is not environmentally friendly to dump oil at 3K miles because it is still fully capable of functioning as designed. As I was not a party to the studies, I will leave it right there.

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Dogsled
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Re: Danger list

Postby Dogsled » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:47 am

Excellent poast and analogy Viking! See if you can break it down a touch more. Lets eliminate the cheap oil/higher quality oil and look at the factors we face. What the heck makes up and 'energy conserving' oil and what makes it bad on the clutches. The motor seems covered on all good quality oils the issue or controversy is the transmission and its compontents. Exactly what is in the energy savings oil the is bad for the clutches. I don't care if grandpa said it was, I mean facts. And if it is a fact why are my clutches still fine. If they changed over to ALL energy conserving oil tomorrow, i'm sure there would be diehards who found a little can of 'whatever' to put in there oil to counter the devil. The little can would get super rich for a year til everyone found out it didn't matter if you used it or not then they'd fade away to a beach in the Hamptons to spend your money :-) It happened with leaded gas.
A chart with ingredients of the regular oil and energy saving oil side by side so you can compare and see what (or what isn't) damaging to the components would start a good test. Hopefully someone to explain it all would be helpful too. This may resolve all the future "my oil is the best" posts.
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themainviking
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Re: Danger list

Postby themainviking » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:50 am

Dogsled wrote:Heresay or reading an article doesn't count.


The chance of having someone who has experienced a problem using friction modified oils with motorcycle clutch problems who is also on this forum is pretty slim. If articles won't do, then I guess honda's recommendation that covers this point won't do either, however, they do indeed mention that one of their oils is not suitable for use in bikes that use the same bath for engine and clutch, but one can use them in sport bikes to help make horsepower with the expectation that the clutch plates will have to be cleaned or replaced. As my previous post mentioned, you are not likely to get any "proof" postings that show a specific brand of oil blew a bike up, because it is probable that lack of correct lubrication did it. A very poor oil, and a very stressed engine would be a more likely scenario.

Or maybe you were just trying to prove what I am stating, and you did not expect to find any proofs of destruction. :lol:
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Re: Danger list

Postby Dogsled » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:41 am

What I was looking for was what is in the oil OR what has been removed from the oil that makes it bad for the clutches. There has to be some property missing that was vital to clutch life that was removed if this topic is to be valid....what was it?
As for the number of people on this site who have actually experience problems, equal to the number of people who have said not to use it because it causes problems, is what I question. It's like Joe told me that Bill told him that Frank said it's bad for the clutches. It's fnny that all bikers seem to know about this issue but no test with explanations has ever be done,or maybe it has and I never saw it. If the govt did the test, A. I wouldn't believe **** that they say (EPA being the biggest load out of all of the) B. I prolly wouldn't understand it after they intentionally hid it in a bunch of mumbo jumbo. A nice test in laymen terms done by one of the major bike magazines would go a long way in helping us understand the facts.
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Re: Danger list

Postby detdrbuzzard » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:20 pm

energy coserving oil has friction modifiers to reduce friction ( not good for wet clutches ) regular oil does not. bikes like our wings which use engine oil to lube the trans also have sheer forces that oil has to withstand. the shee forcees cah be high enough to break down the molecules in the oil ( which is what happened to my cb 750 ) and confirmed by castrol at the time. i had just done the oil change when i put the gtx oil in and when drained out it had less than 70 miles on it. but just by how slow it poured out the bottle going in the bike and how fast it drained out i knew it was shot. it was more like water draining out with a slight burnt oil smell even though it looked like new oil
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Re: Danger list

Postby Dogsled » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:54 pm

detdrbuzzard wrote:energy coserving oil has friction modifiers to reduce friction ( not good for wet clutches ) regular oil does not. bikes like our wings which use engine oil to lube the trans also have sheer forces that oil has to withstand. the shee forcees cah be high enough to break down the molecules in the oil ( which is what happened to my cb 750 ) and confirmed by castrol at the time. i had just done the oil change when i put the gtx oil in and when drained out it had less than 70 miles on it. but just by how slow it poured out the bottle going in the bike and how fast it drained out i knew it was shot. it was more like water draining out with a slight burnt oil smell even though it looked like new oil


energy conserving oil has friction modifiers to reduce friction (RF) , not good for wet clutches So this is GOOD for the engine? I guess it would be good to look at this oil in an engine alone and understand what its purpose is. (not even thinking about the trans or clutches). Does RF increase engine life or some crap the govt thought up to control emissions (and in turn ruin everything it touches) Hard to discern with morons making the laws.
Now without disrespect is the word you used 'sheer' or was it 'shear', either way an explanation if you have one, to explain the forces a bit. The terminology doesn't explain WHY it would break down in just 70 miles. Putting fluid under pressure between clutches would cause the shear and friction that would breakdown the oil both with contact and heat. NO motor oil has any hydraulic capabilities, high friction,pressure,heat. RF or regular.
If the Rf oil coats the clutches and does have less friction I can see where it would possibly cause slippage and wear. But what about engine parts that are coated with oil loosing lubricating properties needed to keep the engines running properly between cycle. Can it be an overall disaster. Remember, the govt is watching out for you so thankfully you don't have to worry about that end...lord help us all.
All in all it was a good article though buzzard, with alot of thought provoking issues.
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Re: Danger list

Postby themainviking » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:42 pm

Dogsled wrote:So this is GOOD for the engine? I guess it would be good to look at this oil in an engine alone and understand what its purpose is. (not even thinking about the trans or clutches). Does RF increase engine life or some crap the govt thought up to control emissions (and in turn ruin everything it touches)


In most reduced friction oils, this is obtained by use of molybdenum, or moly. This does indeed work well for engines, and allows increases fuel economy. It is also great for transmission gears, however, the moly (or whichever substance the particular oil has in it as an RF) collects on clutch plates and makes them slippery as opposed to mildly sticky. So they slip.

Shear has to do with the tendency to cut or shear through something, in this case, the molecules of the oil, which engines with metal moving parts indeed accomplish. Dino oil, having different sized molecules is more prone to this shearing, while synthetics, having identically sized and formed molecules have less tendency to shear. This is why synthetics are superior lubricants than the old dinosaur oils. After an engine has had the opportunity to "shear" a lubricant for a long enough time, the lubricant loses its ability to do its job.
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Re: Danger list

Postby themainviking » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:05 pm

Dogsled wrote:What I was looking for was what is in the oil OR what has been removed from the oil that makes it bad for the clutches. There has to be some property missing that was vital to clutch life that was removed if this topic is to be valid....what was it?

It's funny that all bikers seem to know about this issue but no test with explanations has ever be done,or maybe it has and I never saw it. If the govt did the test, A. I wouldn't believe **** that they say (EPA being the biggest load out of all of the) B. I prolly wouldn't understand it after they intentionally hid it in a bunch of mumbo jumbo. A nice test in laymen terms done by one of the major bike magazines would go a long way in helping us understand the facts.


I do not know anything about "all bikers seeming to know", but nothing was removed. The problem is that something was added to make the oil more slippery for the purpose of gaining fuel economy - molybdenum is one additive that has been used.

There is a white paper on oil that explains most of this. Some people have had the opportunity to attend oil seminars and oil "universities" to pick up their knowledge of how oils are formulated and how they work, but it looks like none of this is good enough. The tests on oil products are done by oil manufacturing and oil packaging corporations, rather than bike magazines, but the results have been printed in bike magazines in the past.

The white paper can be downloaded as a PDF file from here: http://www.syntheoil.com/update.html where it is the center button, called A Study of Motorcycle Oils.
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Re: Danger list

Postby Dogsled » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:38 am

Thanks for the insight on this issue. AND the white paper PDF. This should go a long way in making oil choices. It seems the life of our engines rely on being knowledgable about this and making the right choices.. Thanks, i'll read this and see if I can grasp everything it's trying to say.
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Re: Danger list

Postby WingAdmin » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:10 pm

themainviking wrote:Shear has to do with the tendency to cut or shear through something, in this case, the molecules of the oil, which engines with metal moving parts indeed accomplish. Dino oil, having different sized molecules is more prone to this shearing, while synthetics, having identically sized and formed molecules have less tendency to shear. This is why synthetics are superior lubricants than the old dinosaur oils. After an engine has had the opportunity to "shear" a lubricant for a long enough time, the lubricant loses its ability to do its job.


It should be noted also that the transmission gears are very good at shearing oil molecules, which breaks the oil down. As the molecules are broken down, the lubricity of the oil is reduced. Auto engines do not use engine oil to lubricate their transmissions, unlike motorcycle engines, which use the same oil to lubricate the engine and the transmission. This is one of the main reasons why oil will not last anywhere near as long in a motorcycle engine as it does in a car.

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Re: Danger list

Postby Dogsled » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:40 pm

What is the purpose of lubricated clutches, cars seem to get along fine dry. So the RF oil is OK for the motor and trans, just hard bad for the clutches.
I remember a long ways back there was a (Chrysler, hope that's right) it had something in the rear end with clutches that would shift the drive from one side to the other as you were cornering (I think that was the purpose). Anyway, it took special gear oil in the differential and we didn't know it so we put in regular 90wt. All of the clutches stuck together, so are we possibly at that point with our clutches, something catastophic like that?

That was an excellent point and explanation of why motorcycle oil needs to be changed more often
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Re: Danger list

Postby themainviking » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:50 pm

Dogsled wrote:What is the purpose of lubricated clutches, cars seem to get along fine dry.


Motorcycles also get along fine with dry clutches, but when you put the transmission in the same sump as the engine, the clutch becomes a wet clutch, because it is in the same containment. To get a dry clutch, the manufacturer would have to put the transmission in a separate case. Harley does this, and they run both wet (different type and grade of oil than the engine) and dry, as in open belt drives. If you want a dry clutch, you can put one in a Harley, but you have to take the rest of the bike with it. :lol:

Now the downside of a dry clutch in a Harley - it has to run open or at least vented or the heat will eat the plates. Keep your fingers away if it is open. And you have to make it a belt primary drive, as a chain has to be lubed to last. All in all, I do not think there is a sensible dry clutch motorcycle drive on the planet - :mrgreen:
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Re: Danger list

Postby landisr » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:02 pm

The airhead BMWs have dry clutches, as do Moto Guzzi's among others I believe, unless I am misunderstanding your "dry clutch motorcycle drive" comment.

My "feeling" is that most motorcycles have unitized engines mainly for compactness. In the olden daze most all bikes had separate engines (motors?) and transmissions, each with their own oil system. I "think" they had dry clutches, too. My '75 R90 BMW had an air cooled engine (wet sump), a dry clutch, and a separate tranny with it's own (heavy) gear lube. My 94A has all 3 together, sharing the oil. (Never have figured out how clutch plates and discs immersed in ANY lubricant can 'grip', but I'm obviously not a mechanic. :lol: )

My personal "opinion", based on what I've read, is that RF oil would be fine for the 'engine' part of my Wing, and MAY be ok for the tranny part, but like Viking says, the clutch part MAY have difficulties with the modifiers.

It's nice that Dogsled is looking for "just the facts, Ma'am" and at some point he will find them to his satisfaction. And I can appreciate his wanting to dispel myths, etc. If he just wants to compile a list of acceptable oils, he should just tell people to follow their owner's manual, as I think RF oils are lighter weight than manual specs any way (1800s may be an exception ?). If they have heartburn about synthetic, then stick with dino. If I understand him right and he wants to compile a list of oils to avoid, then he can just say that any of today's oils lubricate just fine. If people have a "damn the torpedoes" attitude towards RF oils, they are free to use them. If their clutches don't start slipping, then Praise Be and pass the potatoes. If they do start slipping, hopefully a fresh change of 'safe' oil will fix things up.

I'm not trying to offend anybody, and am just sharing some thoughts on this subject. I'll go to my room now. It's too cold to go for a ride. :)

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Re: Danger list

Postby fysty-1 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:23 am

This is an excellent post DS. But the easiest way to advise as to oil ist to let everyone who is asking to read the labels very carefully and make sure that there are "NO" ( none nada) friction inhibitors in the oil. Most all oils are fairly well equal. It is just a matter of which manufacturer you prefer. I have used Castrol Syntex in all my autos for the past 25 or so years & have had no problems but that oil is filled with friction inhibitors. Amsol is one of the most talked about oils on any of the forums. :D :D :D :D :D
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Re: Danger list

Postby Dogsled » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:13 am

Landisr,
Post how you want, what you want and say what you want. That's how knowledge is share. If you spend all your time trying to be diplomatic, you forget what the heck you want to say in the first place.

If I can find it, i'll give Amsoil a label read, thanks Fysty. Screw Auto Zone, i'm headin to the true auto mecca, 'Walmart' :lol: to get my erl.
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Re: Danger list

Postby themainviking » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:29 am

Dogsled wrote:If I can find it, i'll give Amsoil a label read, thanks Fysty. Screw Auto Zone, i'm headin to the true auto mecca, 'Walmart' :lol: to get my erl.


You can see everything about every grade of oil Amsoil bottles on their web site. Select an oil bottle, any oil bottle, and a page will pop up giving you all the information about that oil. More info than anyone could want, in fact, :lol: If you go to any other oil manufacturers web sites, you can likely find the same on their products. Anyone with a computer can comparison shop at home and become more confused than they ever thought possible, which is the glory of the internet, :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Danger list

Postby Dogsled » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:01 am

[ Anyone with a computer can comparison shop at home and become more confused than they ever thought possible, which is the glory of the internet, :lol: :lol: :lol:[/quote]

But do you get women in Spandex online like you do at Walmart.... :lol:
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Re: Danger list

Postby fysty-1 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:53 pm

Dogsled wrote:[ Anyone with a computer can comparison shop at home and become more confused than they ever thought possible, which is the glory of the internet, :lol: :lol: :lol:


But do you get women in Spandex online like you do at Walmart.... :lol:[/quote]

Oh Boo!!!! This old broad used to wear spandex. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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