Double Dark Review


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waituntilthebeep
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DOUBLE DARK SIDE #1467 on Michelin Primacy and BT45

Double Dark Review

Postby waituntilthebeep » Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:42 am



I really wasn't sure where to put this so if it doesn't fit here, please move it WingAdmin...

I went to the darkside with my new Wing. I had an Austone on my 89 before I traded it in but it wasn't long enough to really get a good feel for it. Not so with the 2012. I put a Michelin Primacy RF on the rear and a BT Battleaxe on the front. I gotta say, I will never go back on this bike. Lots of people ask so I figured I would do a topic post on the subject just in case anybody in the future wanted to know.

I LOVE the combination. I had the Goldwing wobble others experience. This was even after putting on a SuperBrace. Came as a factory extra. That is gone now. I felt like the bike was a little loose as far as turning goes - kinda like when you get the trucks on your rollerskates or skateboard a little too loose. Sure, that made throwing it into corners sportbike easy. However, it also made tracking down the freeway in a straight line at 70 mph a constant act of correction. Not. I used to rollerskate and I carried a wrench on my pocket so I could tweak the trucks on house skates to get that sweet spot. This tire combination does that. The lines are straight and throwing it into corners is still really easy but now it feels like it is on rails that I bend and control. On dry roads, I no longer get nervous rolling a freeway cloverleaf with a 30 mph warning sign at 45-50 mph on the peg. I do it at 55 just to put a little adrenaline in the blood. ROCK SOLID and stuck like glue. I am a 6 foot guy so I never ha d a problem with standing flat footed at stops but the new CT ave me another 1" or so to play with. The road speed has not changed but more than 50 rpm's and I can live with that. Oh yeah... grooved pavement? Steel bridge decking? Done both and at high speeds. Solid. Ran up a wash board dirt road to my uncles place last week. Solid. Got great traction and didn't wander all over the place like it did with the stock MC's.

It did take a few miles to get used to the tighter feel of the steering but I think most of that is a mental thing because I was expecting it to be different in a negative way and it wasn't. There is one downside though and that is even tolerable... tread hum. I can feel some tread hum that I never had before coming from the front wheel (deeper tread by a lot than previously) at around 25 mph. That goes away about 35mph and I rarely stay in that speed zone. Still, not an issue for all the gains I made.

So, can it be done? Of course. Honda even did it for me. Am I still covered under my insurance? Absolutely... that is Allstate in case you are wondering. SHOULD it be done? Can't speak for you on that one but for myself? Ohhhhh yeah! Will do it again in 40k or so.

Outside of that, I am working hard as usual to keep the shiny side up and to get as many bugs in my smile as I possibly can.



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Rob H
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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby Rob H » Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:50 pm

Would you mind posting a pic of the front tyre if possible please?

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waituntilthebeep
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'01 Shadow 750
DOUBLE DARK SIDE #1467 on Michelin Primacy and BT45

Re: Double Dark Review

Postby waituntilthebeep » Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:12 pm

As soon as I figure out how... Haven't posted pictures yet. It looks just like the stock tire but the tread depth is about twice as deep. It is not any wider.

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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby Rob H » Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:13 pm

I cannot get my head around a car tyre on the front :D

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waituntilthebeep
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1989 GL1500
Wineberry Red
'01 Shadow 750
DOUBLE DARK SIDE #1467 on Michelin Primacy and BT45

Re: Double Dark Review

Postby waituntilthebeep » Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:47 pm

Oh yeah... that would be interesting but no. It is a motorcycle tire. The BT Battleaxe is a tire designed for a rear tire that works great as a front tire on a Wing. It has the same profile as the Goodyear that comes stock but the tread depth is about twice what the stock tire is. Doesn't really even look much different but putting a rear tire on the front is what makes it 'double' with a CT on the rear.

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Rob H
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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby Rob H » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:11 pm

Ah ha! Now I get you! I thought you had a car tyre front and rear. My mistake. :D

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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby WingAdmin » Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:39 am

waituntilthebeep wrote:As soon as I figure out how... Haven't posted pictures yet. It looks just like the stock tire but the tread depth is about twice as deep. It is not any wider.


See: How to add pictures to your message

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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby GLRT » Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:43 am

It's funny to read the posting today on the BT45r bias tires used on the front of the GL1800. 5 years ago I introduced this tire to the group on one of the other boards and was lambasted as a satin worshiper and chicken molester.

Now everyone is climbing aboard the BT craze - go figure.

VTBikeman
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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby VTBikeman » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:57 pm

I'm just posting my experience over the last 3 or 4 years of riding Double Dark. Not looking to enter a debate. There is plenty of that on these forums. There are videos of rear tires when peg scraping showing the bike never gets on the sidewall. There is the "if God wanted you to ride on a CT . . ." argument, the lore of accidents with unknown causes attributed to CTs but without any evidence for the attribution. Geometric, weight studies. So if you want to argue against DarkSiding please do that on a different thread! Please!

If you had a less than satisfactory experience by all means post it here. Key word: experience, not conjecture, or I knew a guy who knew someone. . . stories. I mean if that is OK with the moderator. :D

My experience? DoubleDark=It's awesome!

Running a Battleaxe BT45r rear tire on the front like waituntilthebeep and a Dunlop runflat sport winter radial in the rear and use Dynabeads for balance. No weights and no wobble. Run them around 36-38 psi in rear, 42 in the front.

Get about 38 mpg mixed riding solo and 2 up.

The BT45r has more meat and the same tread pattern and is the same carcass as the BT45 front tire so I absolutely see no reason to not use it on the front. I rarely get any front end wobble. I do have a fork brace. Dynabeads, baby! works great.

My 89 GL1500 - runs like silk. I ride very conservatively having started riding only 6 years ago or so and haven't and probably won't ever drive to the peg scraping limits of of waituntilthebeep but having the run flat in the rear takes a lot of worry out of getting a flat. In addition the tread is much thicker (long life, greater resistance to road hazards) and it's better in rain. Smooth, better on dirt roads. The load rating is higher than a MT.You can't get a lean angle that is great enough to get on the sidewalls on a Wing. My tires still look like new after about 10k. And much cheaper! So what's not to like?

I see absolutely no reason to go back to a MT unless I can't get another CT that fits.

Viva La DarkSide!!

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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby GLRT » Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:20 am

VTBikeman wrote:
Running a Battleaxe BT45r rear tire on the front like waituntilthebeep and a Dunlop runflat sport winter radial in the rear and use Dynabeads for balance. No weights and no wobble. Run them around 36-38 psi in rear, 42 in the front.




OK I am a physics guy and one who does not merely go with what seems right but actually tests and tests and studies the geometry and real world physics of how things work. And I have been doing this testing on car tires since 1971 and back then it was 4x4x16 bias ply car tires.
All the following is in regard to a normal 2 wheel motorcycles not the 3 wheel reverse trikes I design and build. (just to clarify)

36-38 on the rear is about 10-15 psi way to much. handling will be poor in general although high speed cornering will be OK. Runflats are also a miserable choice as they are hard and just perform poorly in general. 42 in the front is also about 10 psi over and the end result will be harsh ride and poor patch contact. I will abstain from the sand in the tires thing.
Correctly setup you should get 45-50k on a rear CT and 25-26 on the B45 - setup as above I would guess less than 18k rear and about the same on the front.

Runflats do not have sufficient sidewall flex to accommodate a true lean angle as a correctly "deflated" car tire will flex in the corners to allow for the leaning operation. It's very much like roller skates, four wheels so the skate can't tilt in a turn but the ankle does bend to a lean so cornering is easy to accomplish. Not so in an overinflated state the "ankle" or sidewall cannot flex so a lift must occur which causes a condition of overlean as the bike now must not only lean on an off axis but lift the bike due to the square and rigid tire profile.

If you study all the CT videos on Youtube you can clearly see tires that are loosing contact patch placement, corner lift and in general all things incorrectly done. On the plus side rear wheels on motorcycles are very forgiving as all the rear does is follow the front so it is possible to do an incorrect setup and get away with it handsomely.

I am not trying to discredit so please do not take any of this personally. My intent is to simply provide the science behind the application.
Now as stated I have been running car tires since 1971 and am running them today. The total is some 1.2 million miles and about half of that on ct equipped motorcycles. 100% of my motorcycle ran CT's over the last 12 years. In my expert opinion based on the science, A CT does work well, will last up to 6 times longer than a motorcycle tire but will under perform under high speed cornering and will suffer from the "overlean" condition even with proper setup. Let's face it CTs are not designed for motorcycles. The fact it works is testimony to the fact it can be done however science and logic dictate a MC tire is still the optimum choice for control and liner movement.

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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby Fatwing Chris » Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:08 am

GLRT wrote:
VTBikeman wrote:
Running a Battleaxe BT45r rear tire on the front like waituntilthebeep and a Dunlop runflat sport winter radial in the rear and use Dynabeads for balance. No weights and no wobble. Run them around 36-38 psi in rear, 42 in the front.




OK I am a physics guy and one who does not merely go with what seems right but actually tests and tests and studies the geometry and real world physics of how things work. And I have been doing this testing on car tires since 1971 and back then it was 4x4x16 bias ply car tires.
All the following is in regard to a normal 2 wheel motorcycles not the 3 wheel reverse trikes I design and build. (just to clarify)

36-38 on the rear is about 10-15 psi way to much. handling will be poor in general although high speed cornering will be OK. Runflats are also a miserable choice as they are hard and just perform poorly in general. 42 in the front is also about 10 psi over and the end result will be harsh ride and poor patch contact. I will abstain from the sand in the tires thing.
Correctly setup you should get 45-50k on a rear CT and 25-26 on the B45 - setup as above I would guess less than 18k rear and about the same on the front.

Runflats do not have sufficient sidewall flex to accommodate a true lean angle as a correctly "deflated" car tire will flex in the corners to allow for the leaning operation. It's very much like roller skates, four wheels so the skate can't tilt in a turn but the ankle does bend to a lean so cornering is easy to accomplish. Not so in an overinflated state the "ankle" or sidewall cannot flex so a lift must occur which causes a condition of overlean as the bike now must not only lean on an off axis but lift the bike due to the square and rigid tire profile.

If you study all the CT videos on Youtube you can clearly see tires that are loosing contact patch placement, corner lift and in general all things incorrectly done. On the plus side rear wheels on motorcycles are very forgiving as all the rear does is follow the front so it is possible to do an incorrect setup and get away with it handsomely.

I am not trying to discredit so please do not take any of this personally. My intent is to simply provide the science behind the application.
Now as stated I have been running car tires since 1971 and am running them today. The total is some 1.2 million miles and about half of that on ct equipped motorcycles. 100% of my motorcycle ran CT's over the last 12 years. In my expert opinion based on the science, A CT does work well, will last up to 6 times longer than a motorcycle tire but will under perform under high speed cornering and will suffer from the "overlean" condition even with proper setup. Let's face it CTs are not designed for motorcycles. The fact it works is testimony to the fact it can be done however science and logic dictate a MC tire is still the optimum choice for control and liner movement.


Loose the contact patch and high speed cornering will suffer?I'm guessing you haven't seen Yellow-Wolf on an 1800 running the Dragon on a CT.He's ran the Dragon(timed) more than anyone and he swears the CT is faster rain or shine.

Sometimes the math just doesn't = real world testing.
If I'da known it would last this long,I'da taken better care of it.
Chris
Double Dark
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VTBikeman
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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby VTBikeman » Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:14 am

Thanks for your opinion and info, GLRT.

What's a "true" lean angle? Am I only getting a "false" lean angle?

It's a car tire on a bike. The contact patch will become smaller on turns. But my bike has never slipped on pavement and it is a lot more stabile in gravel and dirt roads. I do not experience any problems riding on this setup. As I said - Awesome ride.

Do any of the bikes lose contact with the road in the videos? Does yours?

My tire inflation choices come from recos from other DarkSiders and my experiments.

Also - I never do hi speed cornering.

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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby Fatwing Chris » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:37 am

Even when it looses some of it's contact area in a corner it still has more area that a MT.
If I'da known it would last this long,I'da taken better care of it.
Chris
Double Dark
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GLRT
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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby GLRT » Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:32 am

VTBikeman wrote:Thanks for your opinion and info, GLRT.

What's a "true" lean angle? Am I only getting a "false" lean angle?

It's a car tire on a bike. The contact patch will become smaller on turns. But my bike has never slipped on pavement and it is a lot more stabile in gravel and dirt roads. I do not experience any problems riding on this setup. As I said - Awesome ride.

Do any of the bikes lose contact with the road in the videos? Does yours?

My tire inflation choices come from recos from other DarkSiders and my experiments.

Also - I never do hi speed cornering.


Again I am talking science and physics and others are talking a max 38 degree lean angles and feels like. It's kind of like all the oil treads where "I change oil every 5 miles and have never had any oil related engine problems" It's a statement that has not validity yet is widely accepted in the "oil monger community". And videos running around a parking lot a 6mph has about as much meaning. it does however accent and display the square corner overlean and variable contact patch well.
I never said a CT will not work in fact I believe I said I have been running CT's for the best part of 40 years will great results but I will never call myself a darksider even though now over the last 6 years, I run 3 CT's on all my bikes.
Darksider is a sort of cult group (no offense intended) The original CT users were focused on the math and physics and also like me understood the benefit and folly involved in running a non-mc tire. Of course they were quickly drive off by the group who were so focused on protecting and proving they were right even though clearly 40psi and run flats are not the right setup. So the engineers and mathematicians soon left and now it's a new era based mostly on feels like and "hay watch yellow wolf do what we hate seeing sportbikers do".(slight giggle here)

I know I am in the minority as a fellow engineer once told me "perception is reality" and truth cannot compete with perception.
This is my last word on the subject as from here it just escalates to "and you ass it big" :-)
Again no offense intended but as a designer and owner of an engineering company I will stick to the math and science.

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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby VTBikeman » Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:59 am

Unfortunately, I don't get your point. You ride on CTs despite science and physics says it is not optimum. If you ride on CTs how is that sticking to science and engineering. What is it you want to contribute? Science says don't do it but do it anyway, science be damned?

My setup may not be optimized for very fast speeds or high lean angles but it serves me well for all practical purposes. Dynabeads work and thankfully gravity and angular momentum, centrifugal and centripetal force don't take a holiday when I ride. And toss in a little gyroscopic effect for good measure.

Enjoy your ride!

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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby GLRT » Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:03 am

The point is - there is a right way and a wrong way is all. Overinflated full of sand, incorrect tire type is what is it all about. Done correctly CT will work but never all around as well as a mc tire. Once again there is the perception of correctness and then the actual correctness - quite a difference.

VTBikeman
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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby VTBikeman » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:47 pm

While there is a right and wrong way to do a lot of things, there are lot's of right ways that work quite well. I use a screwdriver as a prybar, sometimes a ratchet wrench to hit something. I'm sure I've been having sex wrong for a long time, but if it ain't dirty you're not doing it right.

OK. Your use of hyperbola and metaphors obscure your point.

1. My tires are not "full of sand". That would imply ignorance or stupidity. 2 oz of dynabeads could fill a tire? Watch your hyperbola, please. And if you want to pass judgment on dynabeads please tell me how they haven't worked for you after you've used them.

2. The Dynabeads work, better than weights, in my opinion. I use no weights, dynabeads ONLY and have never had a balance issue in 6,000 miles at any speed. The science works. The beads go where they need to. And having had several bikes using weights only and no beads I know the difference. Tire weight shifts as the belts move internally leading to the need to rebalance the tire after time. And there is nothing more fun than pulling a rear wheel off a Wing. And the balance ring on my old Maytag washer worked the same way.

3. Inflation pressures seem to work well. In fact I have run the BT45r at as little as 36 psi with little difference in performance. My local MC mechanic recommends 42 psi. Thanks for your opinion on that. BTW I run my tires on my car around 36. A bit stiffer ride, but better mileage and no noticeable wear issues. I run them lower in the winter.

4. The CT is on the rear of my bike. 36 psi feels like the sweet spot.

Since you imply using a CT on the rear is the "wrong" way to do things, please point out in what way does my CT underperform? It has about 3X the rubber on it which gives greater protection against road hazards and extends tire life (science). It doesn't wander as much on dirt roads and rough pavement (experience). It is less prone to hydroplaning (experience). It can run with a puncture (mfr's claim). Given I only have 2 wheels and having experienced the loss of control with a flat or blow out on the rear wheel, I'll take my chances with the run flat, which has not given me any trouble so far.

If you don't have an experience of a CT causing a loss of performance or undesired consequence on your bike, if you can't point to a specific danger of running a CT on the rear, what is the point of your post?

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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby GLRT » Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:29 pm

I am convinced you will never get the point - sorry and enjoy your holiday weekend.

VTBikeman
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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby VTBikeman » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:45 pm

I just got back from a ride. Smooth as silk.

Thanks for the chat.
Keep the shiny side up.

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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby Fatwing Chris » Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:08 am

I love it when these engineers(closest to God as we'll ever get) come on a forum and let us know we're all idiots.
Especially liked the picture of an 1800 rim and tire that another "god" posted on another site that looked like a picture a 6th grader drew.

I don't care what your slide rule says I'll stick with what I know works well.
If I'da known it would last this long,I'da taken better care of it.
Chris
Double Dark
Darkside # 1602

GLRT
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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby GLRT » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:00 am

Fine as long as you never build a bridge :D

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Rob H
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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby Rob H » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:09 am

GLRT wrote:Fine as long as you never build a bridge :D


Especially not from car tyres! :)

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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby VTBikeman » Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:02 am

As I said - smooth as silk. Trust me, I'm an engineer - for real.

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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby Fatwing Chris » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:19 am

GLRT wrote:Fine as long as you never build a bridge :D


Yeah like there's never been a bridge that collapsed.Was it engineers that designed the first Golden Gate Bridge or was it me?That's just one that comes to mind.
If I'da known it would last this long,I'da taken better care of it.
Chris
Double Dark
Darkside # 1602

GLRT
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Re: Double Dark Review

Postby GLRT » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:08 am

Of course you realize the guys who built those bridges went by the "feels like" method of construction. They also knew more then the "real" experts :D




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