New Quandry


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New Quandry

Postby wjnfirearms » Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:24 pm



Ok, guys....this is how my day has gone so far. Any help is appreciated as I'm really upset right now.

When I had the Wing out a couple days ago, it ran fine. I did notice that it seemed to use a bit more gas than I expected it to, but that's not the problem in of itself now.

I got on to take it for a state inspection and it wasn't running right. It acted like it wasn't hitting on all 4 cylinders. It broke up under load heading to the shop and I could smell gas. No leaks externally. Then, it just coughed up a lung and wouldn't restart. It did finally start, but I had used quite a bit of gas in the process and not over a great distance when all was said and done. I pulled the plugs as the shop where I got it inspected was next door to my Auto Zone. The right bank plugs were a bit carboned, but not completely black. The left not as much even. I still put in a set of fresh NGK plugs and it fired right up, but after a minute or so, was obviously not running well still. There's spark at all 4 wires. I did check that. I decided just to head for home while the getting was good, but had to make one stop.

I had to stop to get a prescription and had one helluva time getting it to restart. I did stop and refuel and put Seafoam in the gas. The bike was back on the road, but bogging and breaking up. When I got home, I couldn't make it up my driveway (inclined up). After some manual horsepower from the rear helping and having to restart it a couple times, I made it up and parked it totally disgusted. :x

It also started doing what it did when I bought it...higher than normal idle on the sidestand getting higher when standing up straight. I had tightened down every screw on all the carbs thinking that it was sucking air and it worked as it's first voyage out, it idled and ran just fine.

Fellas....I could sure use some insight. This engine layout is pretty new to me and it hasn't unlocked all of it's quirks yet. I also cannot afford hundreds on taking it to a shop right now, but I'd sure love to be able to have a few rides out of it before it has to go to bed for the winter. :(

It did pass inspection, though.


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Re: New Quandry

Postby scotterichmond » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:01 pm

A sudden running issue always points me to the points and condensor. ( do you still run points)?

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Re: New Quandry

Postby thrasherg » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:04 pm

I would be starting by checking the compression on all 4 cylinders. Low compression makes an engine difficult to start. Causes you to use more throttle which means poor gas mileage.. I would also be looking to clean the carbs, you said no fuel leaked externally and the plugs where okay, but I would still be looking to remove the carbs and give them a good clean out to be 100% sure everything is correct. I would then start by checking the ignition advance (It's a mechanical system using inlet vacuum pressure so I would be looking for leaks caused by perished parts).

Not sure what else to suggest..

Gary

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Re: New Quandry

Postby scotterichmond » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:11 pm

no vacuum advance on the GL1000

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Re: New Quandry

Postby wjnfirearms » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:47 pm

No points. I considered this and when I opened the points cover I discovered that at some point, it had been converted to a solid state system.

I'm really hoping that it isn't a major carb issue as this isn't doable right now. What puzzles me is that it ran just fine one day, sat for two while the new brake pads were getting installed by my son, and went to hell the next. It's definitely running real rich as you can smell unburnt fuel in the exhaust. We're just going to have to look closer at the carbs, that's all.

I appreciate the suggestions so far. I had wanted to take it on a poker run this Saturday coming, but it isn't looking all that promising right now.
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Re: New Quandry

Postby portugeezer » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:25 pm

I have had to work on the carbs on both my wings. It really does sound like a problem with carbs. Once you get the hang of how they work they are not all that bad and you will know a lot more about your bike afterwards. I would never let a shop work on my bike! I install and repair garage doors and openers for a living not bikes. I got lots of help here and got it done. If I can do it so can you! The thing is nobody at a shop will care as much about your bike as you do. Take your time and try not to get flustered (the way I do) and it will get straightened out!

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Re: New Quandry

Postby portugeezer » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:38 pm

Just to give you an idea of the work I did to mine I will try to remember and list all. New fuel Pump and filter, new water pump, cleaned and synced carbs, replaced timing belts, replaced handlebars grips and mirrors, new plugs, upgraded points to electronic ignition, flushed brakes, replaced brake lines, replaced cables, installed radio, installed headlight relays, replaced starter button, replaced seat with mustang seat with backrest, did all sorts of painting and detailing, replaced exhaust with Jardine chrome. I'm sure there is more! I have taken this bike from Chicago to Colorado and back! I got tons of help here. I then traded an old Kawasaki for a 1983 GL1100 Aspencade that didn't run! Goldwings have become a hobby for me!

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Re: New Quandry

Postby WingAdmin » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:26 pm

portugeezer wrote:I have had to work on the carbs on both my wings. It really does sound like a problem with carbs. Once you get the hang of how they work they are not all that bad and you will know a lot more about your bike afterwards. I would never let a shop work on my bike! I install and repair garage doors and openers for a living not bikes. I got lots of help here and got it done. If I can do it so can you! The thing is nobody at a shop will care as much about your bike as you do. Take your time and try not to get flustered (the way I do) and it will get straightened out!


I had to replace one of my garage door openers last year. What a job THAT was. You have my respect. :)

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Re: New Quandry

Postby portugeezer » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:39 pm

Takes me 1.5 hrs to replace one or .5 hrs to rebuild one. Been doing it 25 years. Openers are easy! Doing doors is beating the heck out of me at my age!

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Re: New Quandry

Postby wjnfirearms » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:47 pm

PG, I understand what you are saying. I did a lot of work restoring the KZ750. It needed all the carbs rebuilt and synced and for all the repair knowledge and experience I have, I've never rebuilt a carb before and I'm a bit intimidated, I guess. They were farmed out and I ended up spending more than I ever wanted to. I also will need a set of gauges to set them up with and know they're not expensive.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the bike running basically ok one day and two days later with nothing being done to the powertrain, reverting to a piece of junk. It's not like a sensor failed like on a newer car where they can do all at once or anything like that. I've never seen carb issues do this before quite like this.

Of course, it didn't help matters any when I was trying to negotiate the inclined gravel and dirt driveway, that the rear wheel kicked out on the next to last attempt to get up it and I injured my leg. That just added insult to injury, or maybe injury to injury.
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Re: New Quandry

Postby El Taco » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:11 pm

Float levels. On the side stand, it's dumping gas, and loading up. You set your idle on the side stand, so when you stand it up and it leans out, it'll idle up. Otherwise, dump the NGK plugs. To put off plug related problems longer, switch to Autolites. I went through hell with NGKs years ago, and while I still use them, if I have problems with a particular bike, I make the switch.

To this day, I still don't understand what could cause a plug to quit firing inside of ten miles. They literally didn't run long enough to foul. I put Autolites in it, and problem solved. It was on a CB550, and hanging a timing light on the plug wires revealed intermittant spark. A new set would run fine, for five miles or so.

Made me a believer, especially considering the parts store stopped honoring NGKs warranty after I exchanged three times. Cleaning them made no difference.

Pull a drain screw on a bowl and plug a piece of clear tubing into the hole. Route the hose upward and run the engine. Note how your bowl level changes from stand to straight. Anything over the flange is too much, and will overflow. Repeat on other cylinders that indicate a rich condition. No need to synchronize after a float adjustment, only if you separate the rack, which you won't have to do. Be sure to remove and shake each float by your ear to ensure none of them have filled with fuel and sank.

Honestly, I've separated racks to change transfer O-rings and didn't have to sync after on numerous occasions. A four cylinder carb overhaul typically garners me $100-200 for an afternoon of laid back, easy work, and I get to go for a ride afterwards. Sport bikes are fun, because I get to blast down the road once or twice, and I don't have to own the dumb thing.

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Re: New Quandry

Postby wjnfirearms » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:28 am

Float levels. On the side stand, it's dumping gas, and loading up. You set your idle on the side stand, so when you stand it up and it leans out, it'll idle up. Otherwise, dump the NGK plugs. To put off plug related problems longer, switch to Autolites. I went through hell with NGKs years ago, and while I still use them, if I have problems with a particular bike, I make the switch.

To this day, I still don't understand what could cause a plug to quit firing inside of ten miles. They literally didn't run long enough to foul. I put Autolites in it, and problem solved. It was on a CB550, and hanging a timing light on the plug wires revealed intermittant spark. A new set would run fine, for five miles or so.

Made me a believer, especially considering the parts store stopped honoring NGKs warranty after I exchanged three times. Cleaning them made no difference.

Pull a drain screw on a bowl and plug a piece of clear tubing into the hole. Route the hose upward and run the engine. Note how your bowl level changes from stand to straight. Anything over the flange is too much, and will overflow. Repeat on other cylinders that indicate a rich condition. No need to synchronize after a float adjustment, only if you separate the rack, which you won't have to do. Be sure to remove and shake each float by your ear to ensure none of them have filled with fuel and sank.

Honestly, I've separated racks to change transfer O-rings and didn't have to sync after on numerous occasions. A four cylinder carb overhaul typically garners me $100-200 for an afternoon of laid back, easy work, and I get to go for a ride afterwards. Sport bikes are fun, because I get to blast down the road once or twice, and I don't have to own the dumb thing.

Read more: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14112#ixzz28nsO0wgQ


I already considered the floats to be at issue, but you're pretty much confirming it to me. Makes sense to start here.

The NGK statements have me a bit puzzled. All I ever hear, and have heard for years, is "Jap bike, Jap plug. Fords use Autolite, Buicks, AC. No NGKs in a Harley". I have seen cars and bikes myself that wouldn't run for a poop on another brand of plug than the OE. Then, there are exceptions. Some say their Jeeps ran like crapola on Bosch plugs. I run nothing but in our two Jeeps and they run great and always have. Personally, I like Autolite products, but never considered using them in a metric bike. I'm not sure what the merger of NGK and Delco means, if anything, to quality as I never cared for AC products (which is pretty much how I feel about GM also). I believe the problem is more than can be fixed by plugs alone, back to carbs, so I'm going to hold off buying a third set of plugs for the moment. I will check if there is a cross reference for Autolite to the NGK 2120 which is the called for plug for the '77 GL1000.

Small world. I had a CB550 also. Got it used and it was a piece of junk. Worst bike I owned and I've owned a few. I hope yours was better.
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Re: New Quandry

Postby scotterichmond » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:27 am

My gut is leaning towards ignition, just because it happened so sudden. But if it turns out to be carbs(I can't rule that out either ) then I would think it is something very simple, like something stuck in there that don't belong , or a float sank or adjustment of floats or ........ after you have pulled a few of these GL1000 carbs it can be on the bench in about 15 minutes. you will need new orings and should get new bowl gaskets too.
I suspect if it was running good the last time you parked it , you don't need a "complete" overhaul.

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Re: New Quandry

Postby dingdong » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:57 am

The first thing I would do is check for fire at each plug. That will eliminate the ignition. If your ignition is a Dyna, they are known to fail on one side or the other. Then go for the carbs. As for NGK plugs there are literally hundreds of thousands of metric bikes that run them successfully. I have them in both of my rides. The set that is in the 1000 has about 25k miles on the and the run and look just as the did when I installed them. That would be the last place I would be looking. As suggested earlier you may just have a float that is sticking. Easy things first.
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Re: New Quandry

Postby El Taco » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:23 pm

A Harbor Freight nitrile O-ring kit is a good thing to have on the bench, and as in a previous post, it's not hard to get the carbs off of the bike.

My CB550 was great. I think I had three of them before I finally built a mildly chopped 500. I started to chop another, but left it sitting on the ground due to lack of interest. It's still there, with a couple of straps welded in just to keep the steering head from moving. It was never going to be what the CB350 turned into after it went under the knife.

I run NGKs in mine, but if one quits inside of a month or two, I put Autolites in it. I've had excellent luck with both. Champions, not so much.

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Re: New Quandry

Postby wjnfirearms » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:19 pm

I tried to find a cross reference for Autolites today at work. None are available any longer, it seems, to be a direct cross reference to the D8EA (2120) NGK plug that the GL calls for. I also called one of our competitors up the street and they didn't even have a listing. My computer brought up a number, but stated it wasn't available. I reverted to the paper catalog and that's how I found that Autolite number also hoping there was more than one, but they just don't seem to be available, even if I could special order them. I did find four Champions in stock that crossed, though after what you just said ET, I maybe shouldn't have bought them.

I don't believe the ignition is a Dyna. I glimpsed at the name stamped on the pick ups when I opened the cover yesterday, but I cannot remember what it is. It wasn't Dyna. I did put a Dyna ignition in the KZ because the pickups were trashed. It seems to operating just fine, so far. After the carb rebuild, new coils and plugs, and the ignition, it runs just fine, has plenty of power and gets at least 40 mpg. No complaints there at all. I've heard some people don't like Dyna, but there's a lot who do. There weren't a lot of choices out there for the KZ.

My time is severely limited right now and wish I had some of the competent helpers I seem to be finding here. Why does there always have to be so many miles between myself and the people I'd love to be in closer touch with?
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Re: New Quandry

Postby scotterichmond » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:24 am

I still think it is ignition. and reverting back to points is an option, one i believe in. I still run points in my GL1000, i can diagnois it easy , and more important, I can repair it.

Just my opinion, but what would I know?

Here are the basics you need to confirm:
compression, fuel, and ignition all at the right time, and it will purr.

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Re: New Quandry

Postby wjnfirearms » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:40 am

I can see how an ignition issue would cause the poor power band and breaking up. It won't explain the excessive fuel use and the erratic idle by position. It also won't explain how after tightening up all the screws and bolts at the carbs and nearby, the bike ran and idled ok even though I did notice it was running rich by the exhaust smoke and smell and after just less than two days sitting, reverted back to junk and then some.

I'm not sure which way to go here as there is a lot on my plate aside from this and right now wish I had the money to simply dump it on a shop and say "Fix it!". I'm fairly convinced that the carbs are at the heart of the problem as I've heard basically the same thing from a few about the idle change and dumping fuel. There is spark at all 4 plugs, though I realize that doesn't necessarily mean that all is well there either.
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Re: New Quandry

Postby El Taco » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:41 pm

My aversion to Champions stems from the different hex size which my Honda plug socket wouldn't fit. In a CB550, they made for a fun time in R&R. I've also changed a billion of them in the small engine shop.

Ignition can cause excessive fuel consumption, as you have to give more throttle to get down the road, and if it isn't firing correctly, it'll smell rich. I still believe you've got a carb issue, though. Relation to the ground has no bearing on the points, where your fuel level is going to remain level, side stand, center stand, or upside down, gravity will ensure it.

I love my points type ignition systems. Cheap, serviceable, and you can file them again and again so long as the cam stays lubed. Doesn't hurt to carry a small tool kit with a little emory cloth on long trips.

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Re: New Quandry

Postby wjnfirearms » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:41 am

I tend to agree with you, ET. Still, I'll have to pull the point cover off and look at the brand name on the solid state unit. There has to be a way to test it with a multimeter, which will have to be something I'll have to try to find out. It won't hurt to check it even if it is solely a carb issue.

I have my workbench in the house set up to receive the manifold, so I have intention of removing it in the next several days as time will allow. I'm praying right now that it's issue that I can fix without having to buy 4 rebuild kits. I'm no cheapie (my creditors will attest to this), but I'm not looking forward to having to spend upward of $200 just for the kits for all 4 carbs. I talked to a local Honda dealer and they're parts are out of the question. I'd have to go with the K&L kits.
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Re: New Quandry

Postby El Taco » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:29 pm

Needles clean up most of the time. Gaskets can be made at home. O-rings come in large assortments for cheap.

I can assure you, for the money you'd spend on kits to rebuild one rack, I could do a dozen. Leave it all in one piece unless you can't avoid it. Pull the bowls, make sure everything is oriented to go back into the carb it came from. I usually scratch a number into the bowl and pile all the parts in it. You'll have to pull the caps and pistons, and be sure to pull the emulsion jet out of the main and clean the hell out of all the passages.

I don't think you need anyone to hold your hand, but I'm sure you can get away for under $20.

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Re: New Quandry

Postby wjnfirearms » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:00 am

Nah, no hand holding. Just have a thing about not screwing stuff up.

I read you on orientation of parts. Already considered this. I picked up a metric o-ring assortment box we sell at the store, a can of spray carb cleaner, some grey Permatex, and canned air. I'm thinking that should about do it unless I come into something unforeseen like a damaged diaphragm.

I've been reading the carb service section of the shop manual. Keep your fingers crossed. I'm looking at pulling the manifold Sunday.

There is something, though. I perused the float adjustment part of the manual. I understand these to be pretty small. In the adjustment paragraph, it stated using a particular Honda gauge and didn't go into a procedure. I don't have one and don't know what to use or how to properly adjust them. This is important, I know. Also, the rebuild kits don't appear to have new ones in them even if I bought any, so if they are taking on fuel internally, what do I do about that?
Last edited by wjnfirearms on Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Quandry

Postby scotterichmond » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:11 am

What afe you planning to use the Permatex on?

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Re: New Quandry

Postby wjnfirearms » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:14 am

Resealing gaskets only if need be. I was recommended this from someone I work with that has experience with motorcycle carbs.
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Re: New Quandry

Postby El Taco » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:33 pm

Assuming they're brass, as I haven't got to mine yet, you find the hole and put a dab of solder on over it.




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