GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?


Information and questions on GL1000 Goldwings (1975-1979)
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1grouch2u
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GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby 1grouch2u » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:51 pm



Hey y'all, hope everybody is doing well- it's a sunny 60deg day here in Tejas; man I wish I had my bike together! It's been unseasonably warm and sunny lately (I guess the planet is getting warmer! :? )

My new problem has me at a stopping point :? so was wondering if anybody has seen/experienced the likes of this.

My bike makes noise- specifically the engine on my bike- and this time it's sounding like a top end noise (the last really bad noise was the water pump banging/wallowing/grinding around- finally started leaking so I found that noise when I went to inspect the leak! :oops:

I've suspected some valve noise- even had the cover off to look a while back and the only thing I noticed was the exh. valve on #4 - the tip of the adjuster/rocker wasn't making good contact with the tip of the valve stem. It was off to one side, not all the way but enough to make me think the rocker was bent, or what I really thought was that the rocker shaft had worn enough to let it be splayed over that far- but it didn't make sense that was just that one rocker, nor did it account for the amount of noise it was making. I took both covers off and inspected (visually, as well as I could) the valve train, springs, etc., but all I saw strange was the aforementioned mis-alignment on the #4 exh. valve.

Well today I finally pulled the rockers and cam on that side, and the cam, rockers, journals, etc. look really good. I don't have mic's but can pretty much tell there's no excessive wear or unnecessary weirdness in any of that- so I'm looking at the valve springs more closely since all that stuff is out of the way, and especially the #4 exh. valve- and it looks like the valve guide has somehow come loose and floated up on the valve stem! I think I was able to push it at least partially back down with a screwdriver, although I know it's not going to stay (if indeed that's what I was seeing...) :roll:

I don't have a compressor to hold the valves closed so I could take the springs off that one, even if I did have a valve spring compressor, so I'm pretty much SOL taking at least the inspection phase any further, but what I really want to know is: HAS ANYBODY EVER SEEN THIS HAPPEN BEFORE? And naturally if so WHAT DID YOU HAVE TO DO TO FIX IT? I can speculate about the need to pull the head for further inspection/repair, ya da ya da, - I'm thinking this would certainly account for the non-specific engine noise I've been hearing. The old motor really has been through a lot, but it's super clean inside and I'd like to think I'll be able to get a few more riding seasons out of it. (Right now is the best time to have one's bike torn down around here- **** deer jumping out of no where right in your lap!) :lol:

Think my valve guide (exh.) has come loose in the head and noisy- excessive smoke sometimes- valve stem doesn't match up to tip of rocker arm- :( :cry:

It would be great- in a way- if this accounts for my racket. Just wanted to see if any of my friends here had ever seen or heard of this happening on these old GL1000s ('76 if it makes any difference)

Thank you in advance so very much!

Grouchy



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Fred Camper
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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby Fred Camper » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:31 pm

As these are interference engines, if you remove the spark plug and rotate the engine until cylinder 4 is at TDC, the valve will not move far. Just put a rag in the spark plug hole so you so not loose a retainer. From what you describe, sure seems like the number 4 exhaust valve is bent. Once you can spin it you will know for sure. Cannot think of what else this could be.

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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby SteveB123 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:19 pm

Valve guides are a tight interference fit in the head. They don't come loose, although I guess it's possible it could break off, and part of it remain around the valve stem.
Are you sure you aren't seeing the seal moving, and not the guide?


Guides seen above....minus the seals, of course.
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1grouch2u
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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby 1grouch2u » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:55 pm

Yeah it might've been the seal I was pushing back up :shock: - I'll get a tiny screwdriver or something and see. If it's that I should be able to pull down whatever I was pushing up and get a better feel for it. Maybe I can rig something to use as a spring compressor, I'll look into it tomorrow. I was speculating that maybe I ran it hot enough before to have let the guide slide out, but I guess I'd have lots of other evidence of that kind of heat before it would release the guide. -In the manual they're showing heating the head in the oven then driving the guides with a drift so I thought maybe it wouldn't take that much heat really, if it was localized to just that cyl.

I really don't think the valve is bent- unless it can be bent on just the top of the stem- as it's got compression and no miss, but it does make the most sense. (I got the motor used and it's even possible it got bumped of rolled over with the valve cover off and bent the rocker arm that way. I guess I could switch it with the other "B" rocker and see if it lines up.)

These seem to be extraordinary durable motors somehow- one wouldn't expect so until you've owned one, and prior to finally getting my fuel system to work right I by necessity have rode mine hundreds of miles both excessively lean and excessively rich mixture :oops: (for instance with broken float pivot post on same carb/cyl. Seemed to be holding with the one remaining- but no float drop. In fact would stick closed rather than expected open.)

I dunno- the old thing really runs well, I'm just not trusting it on long trip with this engine noise, so I hope I'm geting warm. Last year around this time there was a guy not far from here had a motor for sale on Ebay very good price- would even deliver it to my doorstep- but Christmas and money tight and... kick myself for not pawning a few guitars and getting that! :oops: :cry: :?

Thanks for taking the time to give me your thoughts guys. I've seen valve guides pull loose before on something I know, but I have memory problems pretty bad and can't remember if it was a Cadillac or a weed eater or what. Maybe it'll come to me (for what it's worth :roll: ) And if anybody else has any ideas :idea: please let me know.

Namaste, Shalom, Peace Out,

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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby 1grouch2u » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:57 pm

:D Beautiful weather, grr...! :P

Pulled the head today and confirmed the problem- valve stem broken off at the head. I suspect I hydro-locked it and this bent the valve which broke the guide off (right? :?: ) Now I can see how I could have a bent valve and still have compression on that cylinder :o

My experience in automotive has been with a bent vave you lose a cylinder
My experience in automotive has been with a bent vave you lose a cylinder

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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby 1grouch2u » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:11 pm

But with the bent part being free from the guide- with the guide brokeen - it let the valve still seat and open . :? Just made a tremendous ticking noise. Definitely valve train related, but with a deeper sound than a rocker would make. Had me stumped :? pretty good as I couldn't see the broken guide with the cam and rockers still on it, Eureka! :lol: There's hope for this old bird yet! 8-)

So should I just get an old head off Ebay? :geek: There's quite a few on there with prices ranging from total junk, :o to sokething I might can afford ;) to "you gotta be crazy!" :shock:

One on there (with nice tan exh. valves) ends here in a few hours. I already missed another one that looked really good. Guess I'll give it a try. -Any ides on a source for the oil orifice o-rings, exh. gaskets, head gasket and stuff? Any specific advice I might need to know beyond Randakk's write up? Thanks guys!

(Between the lines read= least expensive way possible to go without messing everything up. Thanks!)
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1grouch2u
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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby 1grouch2u » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:24 pm

One more thing... I know the cams are different, but I can use a '79 head on here if need be, right? Thanks.

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Fred Camper
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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby Fred Camper » Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:06 pm

Stick with a 1975 - 1977 head then everything is usable. If you go with a 1979, I know the cam lift and timing is different but suspect the valves are the same. But why not just get a 1975-1977, it is not like they are rare. Wingovations can certainly help you out.

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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby 1grouch2u » Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:52 pm

I'm just going by price, what the pictures look like, and whether or not they'll stand by it being any good. All I'll be using is the head (w/valves) itself, not the cam, rockers, etc. so I just wanted to make sure that they were all the same- '75 through '79, and the heads themselves are the same thing stripped down left or right side (it's just the cams, rocker assy. that make any difference) - I mean, if I ended up with a right hand head off a '79 it would still work- just the bare (almost) head.

I mean I could strip mine down, throw it in the oven, and drive out the broken guide and put a new one in- but then I'd have to get a new valve too of course, and by the time I did all that it would be easier and cheaper just to get a used head.

Yeah, you're right about there being no scarcity of these things out there, so I'll probably take your advice and just be sure to get one for a '75-'76 in case for some reason I did need any of the other parts to fit. Most of these don't have the cam- no doubt to save on shipping.

I tell you one thing, it sure the heck beats leaning over the fender of a pickup truck putting a head on a 454 Chevy! Thanks F.C.- I can always count on you to keep me a little sane with this thing! (I didn't really mind when they called it 'manic depression', but I refuse to be 'bi-polar'!) 8-)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RH-CYLINDER-HEA ... 3b&vxp=mtr

Wouldn't that work?

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Fred Camper
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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby Fred Camper » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:59 pm

Not a bad deal considering shipping. But you cannot be sure your cam on that side is good yet and there must be a guy down the street parting out a '76 GL...

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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby 1grouch2u » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:45 pm

That thought had actually crossed my mind, that surely there was one of these somewhere nearby sitting in somebodies somewhere, but I have no idea how I would go about locating it. I'm not from around here and don't really know anybody- I'll ask the guy who drives the church bus tomorrow (he owns the biggest auto repair shop in town- has offered to help me with my tire change if we can do it with his more modern type tire machine) but besides him...?

Here's another one on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1976-Honda-GL10 ... b6&vxp=mtr

A little more expensive, but the likelihood of having good parts improves since it's the correct side, cam, rocker assy. etc...

The later model cam-carrier have a slot for improved camshaft oiling- but now I'm wondering if Honda may have machined the carrier with the head to get the right bearing clearances, so I'd probably want to get as much that went together as possible and not use my old rocker, cam, etc. like I was considering... Thoughts?

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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby 1grouch2u » Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:34 am

Well crud! Never do remember to enter that durned contest before I get into something. Never win anyway- ain't lucky like that no how. Maybe gona git that thar head ( just tryin' to fit in- this here's Texas and at least all the politicians from here are idjits)

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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby Fred Camper » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:45 pm

Keep looking, your head complete will show up. Patience is helpful but in short supply in my garage. I am looking for a new supplier.

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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby 1grouch2u » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:05 pm

I hear ya- I went ahead and bought the last Ebay listing I shared above. I hope it's as good as it looks in the pictures. Found my Locktite anti-seize spray can, my RTV, (went and bought a putty knifeand some socks... why did I say that? :roll: ) ordered the oil orifice o-rings, new dowels, and the water fitting gasket. Still shopping around for a head gasket. I guess Saber is a 'don't even ask on this forum' thing huh? I'd sure like to find something decent in that price range though. -Probably gonna sleep on it anyway. Might get one from Kiwi or England. The prices aren't at all sable on a lot of this stuff. (The above stuff is OEM, but they want $44 for the Honda gasket- which is starting to look pretty good (?) Hope you get your supplier issue resolved, and thanks again for keeping me somewhat grounded.

Voice of Reason 8-)

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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby Fred Camper » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:45 pm

You cannot go wrong with Mother Honda if you can afford the gasket there. But there are others, just I am not confident on which ones are good other than Honda.

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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby 1grouch2u » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:26 pm

Yeah Fred I guess I'm gonna go with the Honda part- there's a Victor~Reinz head gasket offered for it (Dana) and that's in my experience with automobiles- even foreign/exotic- really good **** ! Arguably better than OEM in many instances, but better than Honda ? I don't know about that. :lol:

I've got another dilemma that's going to take up some more of my time anyway. The head I got off Ebay was packed pretty well, but not well enough. I think ordinarily it would have made it here no problem, but some joker at the post office around here insists on throwing all of my parcels on the ground until he/she hears a definitive 'crunch/snap/crack" and won't be satisfied until at least part of the contents are protruding out the side of the package. The last most notable time it was a Squire P-Bass- luckily it incurred zero damage, although the box was in shreds- same story most of the time, but this time even though they had shrink wrapped and double reinforced the head the part of the camshaft that protrudes for attachment of the points/advance looks like was dropped on that from about 10' - coming through the triple layer of cardboard they had packed it with there to avert just such a happenstance. Anyway, broke the thrust provision (integral washer) on the camshaft. :cry:
Effectively rendering that camshaft useless. Bummer.

I haven't yet contacted the seller- guess I better do that tomorrow. Who is liable for this kind of damage anyway? It was in a medium flat rate priority mail box, well packed with reinforcement that you would think should have been adequite? The reason I chose this particular head was it being off a 7
'76, looked pretty clean, and had the cam, rockers, and all run into each other (matched...) I have my cam, rockers, rtc., but still don't know if the carrier and the head were machined together (as is so often the case with automobiles) or if they interchangeable - I'm hoping as they show to be seperate pieces on the fiche that it will be okay just to emery up my pads and run with it.

I still haven't managed to get the driven spline out of my back wheel to lubricate all that good stuff (it does come out, right?) And I think if I take my muffler assy. out and hit it with some barbeque paint it will make for a much better looking old scoot. That and a seat cover. (I'm gonna ut some pictures up here of my seat and see can somebody tell me if it is a GL1100 seat...)

But enough for now- Whew! Long winded :oops:

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Fred Camper
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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby Fred Camper » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:22 pm

My bet is that the carrier and the heads are interchangeable. Honda had a good manufacturing technique even in the 70's. Real bummer on the poor shipping. Keep at her, there is light at the end of the tunnel that is not locomotive related.

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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby thrasherg » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:40 pm

Fred Camper wrote:My bet is that the carrier and the heads are interchangeable. Honda had a good manufacturing technique even in the 70's. Real bummer on the poor shipping. Keep at her, there is light at the end of the tunnel that is not locomotive related.


But be quick about it, I hear rumors that the light at the end of the tunnel is going to be turned of due to the poor economy (They can't afford to keep it lit!). :D

Gary

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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby 1grouch2u » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:23 pm

This thing was shrink wrapped really well and had the cardboard doubled up on the end where it broke, here's some pictures:












I guess I can use my rockers/cam/carrier- think it will be alright? :|

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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby Fred Camper » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:33 pm

Like you said, looks like they threw it off a high bridge. Your plan sounds good to me.

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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby thrasherg » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:59 pm

As long as you use your cam and carrier (I think the rockers are more forgiving) you should have no problems at all. The carriers are bored and the bearings are matched to the cam, so you need to keep the cam and carrier matched (Or replace the plain bearings in the carrier to match a different cam shaft). Your plan sounds fine to me and is exactly what I would be doing if I where in your position. Keep posting the pics.

Gary

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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby Old Fogey » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:21 pm

Carrier and head are match pairs, machined together.

Go here and check out the tips on 'Rocker spindle fix' and 'Cams and Rockers'

http://www.wingovations.com/#/technical ... 4539426578
Image Image

'Impossible' is just a level of difficulty! The only stupid question is the one you didn't ask first!

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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby 1grouch2u » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:29 pm

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

Aaargh~!!!! Now I'm really :? :arrow: :? :o but I've at least decided on a course of action- provided the cam bearings clearance out...

I remembered somewhere in the back of my mind (as demonstrated earlier a few posts up) that the head and carrier -at least on the automobiles I was familiar with- were machined together and if you went to interchanging them without align-boring the cam bearings parallel to the surface of the head, that you were asking for trouble. Das es verboten big time- but I had somehow glossed over this small, incredibly pertinent fact, and was full intending on slapping my old cam, carrier,and rockers on the new head, and running with it. Had I done this I imagine in no time at all I would have been having all kinds of oil pressure, noisy, who knows what all kinds of problems. 8-)

I know from experience also that you do not put a cam in something and use the old lifters- I've seen enough of what happens from kids bringing their 'hot rod' cars they had do-it-yourself put a cam in -only to be running a "flat" cam in no time. 8-)

I may have figured out a workable solution, at least it's the best I can figure out: 8-)

I'm going to use the "new" head with the carrier that came with it, but I'm going to put the rockers and stuff- and the cam, of course- from my old head. I haven't pulled the rockers out of either of them yet, but I'm going to be careful that the rockers pads go back with the cam lobe they were running on. I still could have some misalignment, but hopefully this will be very minor- (there's no bearing "inserts" -it's steel on aluminum- which as I understand is already prone to some wallow which is why it's so tricky to set the timing on these things- cam bearing clearances :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea:

I haven't been making a whole lot of progress with this thing lately, but GOOD THING :( :o :shock:

I'm so glad you guys caught me- Thank You! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby SteveB123 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:42 am

Figuring (in your mind) the best course of action IS progress!
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Fred Camper
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Re: GL1000 Valve Guide Floating...?

Postby Fred Camper » Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:45 am

Sure is nice to have Old Fogey keeping us on track when we turn off course. Nice to find out before damage. Keep at that old girl, worth th effort.




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