Two bad starters???


Information and questions on GL1000 Goldwings (1975-1979)
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MetricMax
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Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:17 pm
Location: Chesapeake, Virginia
Motorcycle: 1978 GL1000
1978 GS1000
1984 KZ440

Two bad starters???

Postby MetricMax » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:16 pm



I picked up a 1978 Goldwing in need of a lot of love. The problem I'm having is the starter turns over so slowly the motor rarely gets the chance to start. I bought a used starter on ebay, put it in and still the same problem. I figured I might as well buy a "new" starter and still the same problem. I've looked at tons of post where the problem ends up being a bad ground, bad brushes, short, bad starter, eventually its always something small and over looked. If the bike didnt run and idle so amazingly smooth the rare time I get it started I would simplely ditch the project. I have even tried jumping the starter housing and post directly on both starters and still the strained barely working turning of the engine. The motor spins fast and free with the plugs I have replaced the timing belts, rebuilt the cards, drained and changed gas and oil along with filters, etc.

I'm no stranger to the demands of restoring an old bike as I have restored a 78 GS100 and a KZ440 to their former glory. I'd really love to continue with this project, but don't know where to go from here. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I do have a farely high level of mechanical ability, usually these things dont get the best of me



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Placerville
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Re: Two bad starters???

Postby Placerville » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:41 pm

Well, you seemed to have looked at most of the possibilities as you've mentioned almost all of them. However, I don't see the word 'battery' used once. So, how's your battery? Even if your battery will accept a full charge (and tests at 12.73 volts) it can still be bad. You need to take it to an auto parts store where it can be subjected to a 'surge test'. If it fails, you've found your problem.
Placerville- 1976 Yellow
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MetricMax
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Location: Chesapeake, Virginia
Motorcycle: 1978 GL1000
1978 GS1000
1984 KZ440

Re: Two bad starters???

Postby MetricMax » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:18 pm

Hey, thanks for the reply Pacerville. I tossed the old battery that was in the bike and first tried the battery out of my GS1000, that didn't work so I used the one out of my truck. I figure if it has enough juice to crank a 351 it shouldn't be any sweat cranking a liter bike. I took the plugs out and sprayed about half a can of penetrating oil PB blaster into the cylinders and left it over night thinking maybe the rings are rusty or just binding from sitting for a long time, even did the Randakk Meathod of running it with a 50-50 mix of dexron ATF and 10w30 for a half hour then draining it and replacing the oil. Still the dragging slow turn starter. I was wondering if the clutch system for the starter could be causing the drag? I'm not familiar with them, but I'd think disengaging or free spinning would be how that goes bad

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Fred Camper
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Re: Two bad starters???

Postby Fred Camper » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:18 pm

Well, we know the eBay and first starter are dirty inside and need internal cleaning. There is an excellent thread on the on this forum. Rebuilding these often takes no parts. Big you also bought new. So what did you buy? NOS Honda? Honda Service parts? Or something else. I would be most comfortable if you took one of your Honda starters and cleaned it out inside then tried again.

MetricMax
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1978 GS1000
1984 KZ440

Re: Two bad starters???

Postby MetricMax » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:52 pm

Hey Fred, thanks for looking in. So it goes like this: the original starter didn't work at all. The used starter I got from eBay was off an gl1000 or 1100 original starter. That starter had just enough gusto to turn the motor over about a half rev. I bought a "brand new starter" and it had enough gusto to turn the motor over about two revs just fast enough that once in a while it will fire and starts right up, but only once in a while. I read the cleaning/rebuild article on this forum and decided to pop open my two OE starters and see what i had. Long story short I took the best parts of the two OE starters into one and even did the armature cut down. Said franken starter is now in the bike and has the same cranking power as the "new starter"

Oddbirdwithbrokewing
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1983 gl1100A Aspencade

Re: Two bad starters???

Postby Oddbirdwithbrokewing » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:11 pm

Did you do a bench test on the starters? If so, how did they perform? How did you ground your truck battery? To the frame or to the battery?

MetricMax
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1978 GS1000
1984 KZ440

Re: Two bad starters???

Postby MetricMax » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:12 am

Oddbirdwithbrokenwing, great user name. For grounding my truck batt to the bike: I've tried the battery cable (no battery in bike), to the frame, to an engine bolt, and even bypassing down directly the housing on both starters and connecting the hot lead from the battery to the hit post on both starters. As far as bench testing: nothing more than touching the lead to the housing and posts on both starters and both turned fast enough that I had to step on the to keep them from squirreling around. Both starters will spin the motor over without the spark plugs in the motor about as fast as every video I've ever seen of a gl1000 being started on YouTube, no matter where I put the leads.

Oddbirdwithbrokewing
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Re: Two bad starters???

Postby Oddbirdwithbrokewing » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:52 am

Sounds to me, by what you say, that the starters seem to be ok. Do you think there could be any chance that hydro-locking is occurring on one or more cylinders?

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portugeezer
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Re: Two bad starters???

Postby portugeezer » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:00 am

Take out the plugs. Get your face out of the way. Crank engine. If gas comes out reset your floats.

MetricMax
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1978 GS1000
1984 KZ440

Re: Two bad starters???

Postby MetricMax » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:21 am

Judging from the number of times I've pulled the plugs and spun the motor then put then promptly put the plugs in and tried starting the bike, I'd say hydro locking isn't the issue, I've even pulled individual plugs with the engine off switch to see if maybe there is a stuck exhaust valve in one of the cylinders that doesn't open.

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portugeezer
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Re: Two bad starters???

Postby portugeezer » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:18 pm

Sometimes you can just disassemble and clean the starter

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Fred Camper
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Re: Two bad starters???

Postby Fred Camper » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:42 pm

So you are saying it runs fine when it does start? Bad ignition timing can certainly slow the starter down. Not sure what you are dealing with as seems like all the normal stuff you tried.

MetricMax
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1978 GS1000
1984 KZ440

Re: Two bad starters???

Postby MetricMax » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:58 am

Yeah, Fred. I barely got it started before doing the timing belts, cleaning the carbs, changing out all the fluids n filters. When I got it started before doing all the regular ressurrection matainace it had what I the forum folks discribed as the really bad outta sync carbs. It sounded like like crap at idle!!! I figured I got the bike for next to nothing and already had a carb sync I had used on my GS1000, so I bought a set of belts and put the wrench time in. After doing the timing belts and total strip down of carbs I got it started and it revs smooth, idles at ~850ish with no "chain slap" and feels clean and strong. No back fires or misses. Put the carbs sync gauges on and they were so close I didn't bother trying to adjust. I have no idea how long it sat for before I got it- no old inspection stickers etc. I know it was keep in a barn since 9/12 till six weeks ago. By the look of the tires, fluids, and the binding/stiffness of the cables I'd best guess it hasn't run in close to ten years. I think I'm going to throw a extra battery in the saddle bag drive it for a tank of gas away from my house fill it back up and fingers crossed ride it back. See if that frees anything up. Probably be a week or so till I can commit to the kinda adventure. I'm open to any suggestion between now and then!

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virgilmobile
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Re: Two bad starters???

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:16 pm

I've been speed reading and I have one question.....
All of the above...Battery,starters,cables etc,etc.....
Your no stranger to bikes...but is this your first goldwing??

Sometimes what is normal for one type of engine doesn't apply to this boxer engine.
Certainly the engine will crank over fast without plugs...Put them back in and pounding 150+psi twice per revolution will certainly slow down the cranking speed....

How bout posting a video of it....Without actually measuring the cranking speed,what sounds slow to you may be in fact normal for the bike.
Here's a post I did with my 1200 and a video at the end....This is normal cranking speed on a wing....
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13017
By the way...the ignition system used on the gl1000 was marginal at best...It lent to a difficult starting bike...I do suggest if you get all the other problems sorted,invest in electronic ignition.

MetricMax
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Motorcycle: 1978 GL1000
1978 GS1000
1984 KZ440

Re: Two bad starters???

Postby MetricMax » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:58 pm

Viriglmobile, and everyone else trying to help me: I have two video so far. One is the very first time I got it running. It's hard to tell from the phone vid but it sound like crap once it get back down to idle. There a clunky noise that's hard to distinguish from the really bad exhaust leak.




Once I put new timing belts and pulled the carbs and all the other lil stuff, the idle cleaned up real good. I'll try to get a video up Saturday, as I work a day and night the next two days.

The other is a standard attempt to start the bike



MetricMax
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Motorcycle: 1978 GL1000
1978 GS1000
1984 KZ440

Re: Two bad starters???

Postby MetricMax » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:20 am

Virgil Mobile, also: As bad and as slow as it cranks, once in a while it will turn all the way over. Now, almost every single time it turns a full rev it starts. Its is however, one in 50 attempts. I briefly looked at your post as well, does a 1200 or 1100 starter fit into the 1000? Which poses an even greater question!!!

"the 1000 starter will fall out of the 1200"

The absolutly dead starter, that was in the bike originally, I was able to remove just by getter the shifter linkage out of the way. The first used "GL1000" starter I purchased I had to drop the headers and one of the header bolts to get it to fit in because it was about an 1/8 to 3/16 of an inch to long to get back in the way the firast starter came out. It was the same with the "new GL1000" starter motor I purchased. Is it possible that I was sold a GL1100 or GL1200 starter and that they won't fit the 1978 GL1000 but that you can use the GL1000 in the GL1100 and GL1200? They all looked identical until trying to fit.

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virgilmobile
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Re: Two bad starters???

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:01 am

I noticed your lights go out when you crank it.They should dim but not go out.
Resolve the power issue.
Battery or corroded ground lug behind the frame bolt.
As far as running.It sounds like one cylinder isn't firing at a idle.
When you can get it started,idle only for 10 seconds and tap each header to identify the dead at idle cylinder.Its a possible plugged slow speed jet.

Oddbirdwithbrokewing
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Motorcycle: 1975 gl1000
1983 gl1100A Aspencade

Re: Two bad starters???

Postby Oddbirdwithbrokewing » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:38 am

Hey MetricMax, I don't believe I saw you say anything about the solenoid. Has it been checked out?

MetricMax
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Motorcycle: 1978 GL1000
1978 GS1000
1984 KZ440

Re: Two bad starters???

Postby MetricMax » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:03 am

Virgilmobile, the video of the bike running was before I did all the work to the bike, but I did shut it down right after and licked my finger and touched each header. All were equally hot. Probably sounds that way from the left exhaust basically falling off at the end of the header, and one of the carbs being way outta sync. As far as the lights dimming, the starter does the EXACT same thing when I grounded directly to the starter housing and touched the hot lead to the starter post. I definatly cleaned the battery ground to frame and put a new solenoid

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virgilmobile
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Re: Two bad starters???

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:27 am

If the lights go so dim they appear to go out they have lost voltage.
Use a analog meter,probe the battery posts and look at the volts while cranking.
It really needs to stay above 10 volts.
Somewhere there is a severe voltage drop.

MetricMax
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Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:17 pm
Location: Chesapeake, Virginia
Motorcycle: 1978 GL1000
1978 GS1000
1984 KZ440

Re: Two bad starters???

Postby MetricMax » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:03 pm

Virgilmoblie, I got the evening off today so I decided to tinker. I took the new starter apart and polished the communicator and everything else looked good, so I put that one in the bike and it seemed a hair better. I used my volt meter to mesure the drop across the battery terminals as I pushed the starter button. It went from resting 12.4 to 10.8 as I cranked the starter. To demonstrate the Lack of a possibility of a bad ground or short some where in the system I placed the negative lead on the starter housing and touched the positive lead to the starter post. Although it is better than the old video, again it was the same as hitting the button




MetricMax
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:17 pm
Location: Chesapeake, Virginia
Motorcycle: 1978 GL1000
1978 GS1000
1984 KZ440

Re: Two bad starters???

Postby MetricMax » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:07 pm




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virgilmobile
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83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: Two bad starters???

Postby virgilmobile » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:05 am

Not trying to be annoying but...
Ok the battery volts stay up.If I see this right,you just used a set of jumper cables to crank the bike.I assume the other end is attached to the good battery....
Here's my problem...you cannot crank the bike using 12 feet of number 10 wire.
I'm guessing there jumper/booster cables and not welding sized starting cables.
You just can't get enough power to the starter with booster cables.
Please prove me wrong.Attach your volt meter direct to the starter and jump it again.Look at the volts.
I was assuming you we're using a hot bike battery with the short large starter wires.
I'm really hoping you don't have a starter or engine that's dragging it down that far.

Oddbirdwithbrokewing
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1983 gl1100A Aspencade

Re: Two bad starters???

Postby Oddbirdwithbrokewing » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:21 pm

I hope you have found the solution to your problem by now. It seems that your starter is ok, and you have eliminated the chance of a short. There also doesn't appear to be a mechanical drag because the engine spins freely when the plugs or out. As for as I can see, all that is left is compression or timing issues. I am guessing timing. Did you try the starter with the plugs in and plug wires off?

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Fred Camper
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Re: Two bad starters???

Postby Fred Camper » Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:37 pm

It would be good to get an update here. Certainly I cannot see how the booster cables could be getting you good voltage under the load of starting, they are just too long. I too think the starter is not the issue but a connection somewhere else is limiting the voltage to the starter.




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