'77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help


Information and questions on GL1000 Goldwings (1975-1979)
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grthwyn
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'77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help

Postby grthwyn » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:18 pm



Hey, new member here, been sifting through this site alot since i bought my bike but this is the first time ive posted here. I've been chasin my tail around the wiring of my '77 gl1000 here for what seems like forever, i fix an issue and find another = life. but ive been dang stuck good here on this last one for a bit and any input would be helpful because im hoping someone else out theres had the same problem and knows how to save me some shop time.

Alright down to it then. i got the ol girl running smoothly now, it has a brand new battery and i installed LED turn signals after removing the windjammer and saddle bags. now i installed resistors on the turn signals to keep the amps down and they are pulling right around 13 which is decent. the problem is when im idling, and the turn signals are on, it kills the engine, not instantly but the strain is obvious and it does kill it after a few seconds if i dont give her some throttle. ive checked the charging system and it is charging around 3 amps at around 13 ish volts which is a good sign, however when i checked the rectifier im not getting any resistance forward biased and around 900 ohms reversed biased (the manual states 5-40 ohms forward and 2k ohms minimum reversed).

so im wondering, when the rectifier goes bad, does it quit charging completely, or slowly die? im thinking this could be whats causing the issue, BUT im curious if its so simple as to just add a larger resistor to make the signals draw less current?

one last thing, my fuel gauge and temp gauge arent working, they were when i bought it. ive tested the float and its working (varying ohms in positions). im hoping i didnt mess something up in my wiring adventures, which is most likely the case. but if everything is wired as it should, which it appears to be, how do i test the voltage regulator to see if its working? i couldnt find anything on that one.

the first rule of wiring is to always check the little things first, but ive checked alot of little things and i would appreciated someone else's perspective, thanks!



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spookytooth
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Re: '77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help

Postby spookytooth » Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:01 pm

Remove the resistors and see if the problem goes away. If it does get one of these...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CMO ... UTF8&psc=1

Also, there's a nice cheap replacement regulator sold right here...

http://goldwingdocs.com/Store/Goldwing- ... ulator.asp

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spookytooth
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Re: '77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help

Postby spookytooth » Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:12 pm

Also... reading your post again there seems to be a slight misunderstanding of electricity. The resistors aren't there to "keep the amps down", they're there to simulate the amperage draw of an incandescent bulb. A device will only use as much amperage as it needs; you can't "overamp" something. The problem comes when a device is requiring more amperage than the supply can deliver. A typical traditional blinker unit requires X amount of amperage draw in order to operate and an LED doesn't draw very much at all. The link that I posted before does away with the need for the resistors since it requires very little draw in order to operate. If everything worked before installing the resistors than it is fair to assume that the resistors are what is causing the problem.

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WingAdmin
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Re: '77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help

Postby WingAdmin » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:22 am

spookytooth wrote:Also... reading your post again there seems to be a slight misunderstanding of electricity. The resistors aren't there to "keep the amps down", they're there to simulate the amperage draw of an incandescent bulb. A device will only use as much amperage as it needs; you can't "overamp" something. The problem comes when a device is requiring more amperage than the supply can deliver. A typical traditional blinker unit requires X amount of amperage draw in order to operate and an LED doesn't draw very much at all. The link that I posted before does away with the need for the resistors since it requires very little draw in order to operate. If everything worked before installing the resistors than it is fair to assume that the resistors are what is causing the problem.


I agree. I would remove the resistors, and replace the flasher with an electronic flasher, which will work with the LEDs without resistors installed. That will save you a lot of power, and I suspect will solve your electrical draw problem.

The fuel/temp gauge issue is most likely your 7 volt regulator, and is easily fixed - see http://goldwingdocs.com/Store/Goldwing- ... ulator.asp

grthwyn
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Re: '77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help

Postby grthwyn » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:35 pm

thanks for the link on the regulator fix.
i already have an electronic flasher installed and i dont have any issues with signal timing. with, or without the resistors installed, im still losing power... already tried this a couple times in a couple different ways

as far as the resistors "lowering" amps in the circuit im referring to the current divider rule for parallel circuits. basically it states that the amount of amperage in a given parallel circuit is defined as amps=volts/ohms (ohms law). since amperage divides between parallel circuit branches, the branch with the lowest R will have the most current flow. it takes the path of least resistance.

knowing that explains why a mechanical flasher works slower with LED's, the flasher is in parallel with the actual lighting circuits, so with the LED's having less R they draw more amperage, this leaves less amperage for the flasher which causes it to cycle slower.

i know thats alot to wrap your mind around, it takes a minute to sink in

but thats what i was getting at by trying to add more resistance, lower power drain by the lights.

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spookytooth
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Re: '77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help

Postby spookytooth » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:43 pm

I can't help you....

grthwyn
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Re: '77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help

Postby grthwyn » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:33 pm

spookytooth wrote:I can't help you....

well it was worth a shot asking around haha

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Fred Camper
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Re: '77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help

Postby Fred Camper » Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:39 am

I suggest a replacement regulator. It helped my 1977 charge better. An updated version is a nice improvement in efficiency. The type of regulator on the 1977 is call shunt type. Keep in mind I am a mechanical guy and my electrical info may not be as useful. But a shunt type grounds the stator when the output is too high to dump the extra power and modern rectifiers use what is called MOSFET electronics to modulate power more efficiently and the result is a small amount of more available power.

The stock bike has two units, a regulator and a rectifier. The replacement is just one unit.

A Honda MOSFET is a good choice. I documented the update on my 1977 here;
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=20670&start=90 see page 7 regarding the regulator.

Or more here:
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=304612#p304612

or here from a anybike perspective;
http://forum.svrider.com/showthread.php?t=111850

Questions, just ask

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Re: '77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help

Postby WingAdmin » Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:39 am

grthwyn wrote:thanks for the link on the regulator fix.
i already have an electronic flasher installed and i dont have any issues with signal timing. with, or without the resistors installed, im still losing power... already tried this a couple times in a couple different ways

as far as the resistors "lowering" amps in the circuit im referring to the current divider rule for parallel circuits. basically it states that the amount of amperage in a given parallel circuit is defined as amps=volts/ohms (ohms law). since amperage divides between parallel circuit branches, the branch with the lowest R will have the most current flow. it takes the path of least resistance.

knowing that explains why a mechanical flasher works slower with LED's, the flasher is in parallel with the actual lighting circuits, so with the LED's having less R they draw more amperage, this leaves less amperage for the flasher which causes it to cycle slower.

i know thats alot to wrap your mind around, it takes a minute to sink in

but thats what i was getting at by trying to add more resistance, lower power drain by the lights.


You're mistaken about how the flashing circuit works. The flasher is not in parallel with the lighting circuits, it is in series. When the turn signals are actuated, current flows through the flasher, and from there through the lights. The current being drawn by the lights heats up a tiny bimetallic strip inside the flasher. When it heats up to a certain temperature, it moves, opening the circuit and turning the lights off. Because current has stopped flowing, the bimetallic strip then cools, and closes the circuit, which starts the cycle over again.

With normal incandescent lights, which draw a reasonable amount of current, the strip heats up quite hot, quite quickly. It opens up, and takes some time to cool off before it closes again.

LEDs normally have very little resistance. Applying 12 volts to them directly will cook them pretty much instantly. As a result, "automotive" LEDs have resistors or other current-limiting circuits built into them. As a result, they present a very high resistance to the circuit (in the order of 60 ohms for a 200mA LED) whereas incandescent bulbs present more like 10 or 12 ohms (depending on their rating).

With those LEDs, which draw very little current, the strip does not heat up much. Depending on the design of the flasher, it takes some time to heat up enough to open, opens the circuit, but then closes again quickly, because it does not need to cool off much (being that it's not that hot to begin with), giving you a long on cycle and a short off cycle. Other flashers heat up and open as soon as any heat is present, so once it opens, it closes again quite quickly (being that it doesn't have to cool much), meaning the flash cycles extremely fast. The latter type is the most common. With some flashers, the LEDs do not draw enough current to heat the strip enough to even open up at all, so the light just turns on, and does not flash at all.

There are two ways to solve this:

1. Install a resistor in parallel with the LEDs. This resistor needs to be around 3-4 ohms, and capable of sinking quite a bit of current. A four ohm resistor at 14 volts will pull 3.5 amps, and will dissipate almost 50 watts as heat - so it will need a heat sink of some kind. This negates the low-power benefit of LED lights.

2. Install an electronic flasher. These flashers still use mechanical contacts to switch the lights on and off, but use an electronic timing circuit to actuate the contacts, instead of a mechanical bimetallic strip. When you use an electronic flasher, you do not need to install resistors.

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Fred Camper
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Re: '77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help

Postby Fred Camper » Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:10 pm

I fully agree with Wingadmin on the flasher. Best to run electronic flasher to minimize current else you loose the led advantage.

grthwyn
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Re: '77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help

Postby grthwyn » Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:47 pm

Fred Camper wrote:I suggest a replacement regulator. It helped my 1977 charge better. An updated version is a nice improvement in efficiency. The type of regulator on the 1977 is call shunt type. Keep in mind I am a mechanical guy and my electrical info may not be as useful. But a shunt type grounds the stator when the output is too high to dump the extra power and modern rectifiers use what is called MOSFET electronics to modulate power more efficiently and the result is a small amount of more available power.

The stock bike has two units, a regulator and a rectifier. The replacement is just one unit.

A Honda MOSFET is a good choice. I documented the update on my 1977 here;
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=20670&start=90 see page 7 regarding the regulator.

Or more here:
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=304612#p304612

or here from a anybike perspective;
http://forum.svrider.com/showthread.php?t=111850

Questions, just ask


thanks ill have to keep that im mind after in get this next round of parts installed and see what happens then. ive got a new 7 volt reg ordered since i tested the original one and it was indeed dead, once i get that and the new coils in i can play around with the wiring a little more

grthwyn
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Re: '77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help

Postby grthwyn » Tue May 27, 2014 8:54 pm

just an update, got everything ironed out. gl1100 coils installed and signals working solid, running like a stuck pig, doing some paint work now

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Fred Camper
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Re: '77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help

Postby Fred Camper » Tue May 27, 2014 9:11 pm

Appreciate the update, they do run sweet. Not for the timid.

grthwyn
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Re: '77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help

Postby grthwyn » Tue May 27, 2014 9:30 pm

Fred Camper wrote:Appreciate the update, they do run sweet. Not for the timid.


its the first road bike ive had and it sure is fun to cruise around on, really sounds good without the horseshoe muffler on it

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grandpa
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Re: '77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help

Postby grandpa » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:28 am

Wing Admin. I fully agree with You. And I do not understand why people use LED and a resistor to have the old flasherrelay working. Because when people put a resistor in, the system draw the same amount af Amp as with normal bulps.

So if one change the bulp to LED to save power also changes the relay. Otherwise it is waste of monny.

Brgds.

Grandpa.

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Re: '77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help

Postby WingAdmin » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:22 am

grandpa wrote:Wing Admin. I fully agree with You. And I do not understand why people use LED and a resistor to have the old flasherrelay working. Because when people put a resistor in, the system draw the same amount af Amp as with normal bulps.

So if one change the bulp to LED to save power also changes the relay. Otherwise it is waste of monny.

Brgds.

Grandpa.


Not necessarily - one of the benefits of LEDs is that they turn on and off instantly, unlike incandescent bulbs, which fade up and down between full brightness and off over a period of between a quarter and half a second. Because human eyes are attuned to detect movement, the instant-on nature of LEDs is more apt to catch the eye of other drivers on the road. So even if no power-saving benefit is being realized, you are still gaining the instant-on/off flash of LED turn signals.

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Re: '77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help

Postby spookytooth » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:19 am

Although... The need for resistors can be alleviated with a simple $5 part so it's crazy to do it that way.

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Re: '77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help

Postby WingAdmin » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:45 am

spookytooth wrote:Although... The need for resistors can be alleviated with a simple $5 part so it's crazy to do it that way.


...unless you've got a GL1500. The lack of current draw by the LED turn signals means that your turn-signal canceller stops working, regardless of the type of flasher you have installed. The only way to retain the functionality of your turn signal canceller is to install load resistors on the turn signal circuits.

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spookytooth
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Re: '77 gl1000 Electrical Gremlins, Ideas Would Help

Postby spookytooth » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:13 pm

Yeah well... turn signal cancelers are for the weak...




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