Number Four Doesn't Fire


Information and questions on GL1000 Goldwings (1975-1979)
  • Sponsored Links
User avatar
chrisraven
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:08 am
Location: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
Motorcycle: 1977 GL1000, 1986 GL1200, 2009 GL1800, 1986 Honda V750

Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby chrisraven » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:28 pm



I have a 1977 GL1000 that spent the last 25 years in a shop corner. I have rebuilt the carbs with Randakks video and complete kit.
What I have done: Checked the valve lash and they are all set properly
Replaced and double checked the timing belts in front of the engine
Rebuilt the carbs according to Randakks DVD
Polished out the slides as Randall suggested,
New points installed OEM as you recommended
Timed according to your tech tips, split the difference
Took the carbs off a second time and stripped them down to nothing and blew them out again, and rechecked the float
levels, 21 mm measured from the top of the ridge as you showed in your video.
Repolished the slides, I can hear them bumping up and down when I lift and drop the manifold, so they are not sticking at all
Checked the ohmage on the coils and plugs and it is exactly the right value
Restored the bike according to your tech tips. Using the penetrating oil, ATF and multiple oil changes and filters.
Nice blue spark at each of the plugs when tested up against the head of the bike.
Compression #1: 150psi, #2: 150 psi, #3: 150 psi, #4: 143psi
Running on 3 cylinders and one in a blue moon on 4. Twisting the throttle it has a bogging sound, unless all of a sudden all the cylinders fire and then it runs great for a few seconds. Then back to the bogging sound and throttle response.

I have tried most everything I could think of, all to no avail. I have bench syncd the carbs, at least close enough that that would not be the problem of it not running on the number 4 cylinder. Anyone with any ideas please feel free to put it out for me to try.
Thanks
Chris



User avatar
Steve F
Posts: 384
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:25 pm
Location: suburban Chicago
Motorcycle: 1976 Honda CB750F Cafe' (sold :>( )
'03 GL1800

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby Steve F » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:43 am

Turn off the lights and observe the plug wires in the dark while the engine is running. See if you can detect any arcing of the plug wires and/or boots. I had similar problems with a CB750, and it all boiled down to replacing the coils with 3 OHM and new wires.
"To ride is the reason, the destination the excuse."

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7647
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:11 am

As mentioned above,the bakelite plug adapter may be arcing out when plugged on the spark plug.If it has them,remove the debris rubbers and just have the plug caps on to clearly see for arcing in the hole.It can also be the ignition wire burnt where it screws on the cap or coil.I did have one cap where the stinger that taps into the wire was burnt off leaving a large air gap.

User avatar
chrisraven
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:08 am
Location: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
Motorcycle: 1977 GL1000, 1986 GL1200, 2009 GL1800, 1986 Honda V750

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby chrisraven » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:29 am

virgilmobile wrote:As mentioned above,the bakelite plug adapter may be arcing out when plugged on the spark plug.If it has them,remove the debris rubbers and just have the plug caps on to clearly see for arcing in the hole.It can also be the ignition wire burnt where it screws on the cap or coil.I did have one cap where the stinger that taps into the wire was burnt off leaving a large air gap.


I have tried various things, including switching leads from one side to the other. No change, pulled the plug leads off each cylinder while running and got a ruduction from the other three, but only a slight reduction from number 4. I think it has to be a problem with fuel from that carb. So I will pull the manifold again and recheck everything inside that one carb, one more time.

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7647
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:47 pm

Before you yank the carbs,try one test.Run the bike a little,1-2- minutes,shut it off,shut off the fuel.
Using a long flatblade screwdriver,loosen the drain plug on a running cylinder to see how much fuel is in it,then check the bad one.If there is a lot less fuel,the microscreen may be plugged.If it's the same,jets may be plugged or the slide stuck.

User avatar
grandpa
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:23 pm
Location: Denmark
Motorcycle: 1978 GL1000 Interstate

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby grandpa » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:37 pm

There is one more thing before doing to much desasambling. Interchange the plugs and se if the problem moves together with the plug It can be the plug

User avatar
chrisraven
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:08 am
Location: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
Motorcycle: 1977 GL1000, 1986 GL1200, 2009 GL1800, 1986 Honda V750

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby chrisraven » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:43 pm

grandpa wrote:There is one more thing before doing to much desasambling. Interchange the plugs and se if the problem moves together with the plug It can be the plug


Already did that and the problem stays with number 4. It's quite odd. Spark is good, compression is there, timing is spot on, there is no reason for it not to run. Did try turning the idle screw mixture all the way in and all the way out, no difference, so I'm thinking it has to be fuel. Something must be interfering with the flow. Going to try a mirror in the plenum while I twist the throttle and see if the slide moves up or not. Maybe the main jet is not giving it fuel either... Grabbing at straws here I know, but this is quite odd nobody has been able to pinpoint what the problem may be.

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7647
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby virgilmobile » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:24 pm

The slide will jump up when enough air flow passes under it.It dosen't care about the fuel,it just lifts a tapered needle to allow more gas to get through the main jet.Even if the slide were stuck down,that cylinder would still fire.

User avatar
Fred Camper
Posts: 1152
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:15 pm
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
Motorcycle: 1977 GL1000, 1976 LTD GL1000

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby Fred Camper » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:45 am

I know you get spark, but are you sure the coil is good? What does that plug look like after a run?

User avatar
chrisraven
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:08 am
Location: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
Motorcycle: 1977 GL1000, 1986 GL1200, 2009 GL1800, 1986 Honda V750

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby chrisraven » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:01 pm

Fred Camper wrote:I know you get spark, but are you sure the coil is good? What does that plug look like after a run?


Hi there: yes the coil is good I tried xing the wires, and still #4 is dead. Good spark on all 4 leads, ohmage is perfect on high tension leads, and coil primaries. The #4 plug is sooty while the other 3 have a gray part at the arc position, this sooty look is not wet, like to rich, more like fuel that is not igniting. When I pulled the wires when the engine was running I had a noticable drop on the other 3 cylinders but a very minute drop on #4. Again indicating maybe not enough fuel to get a proper burn ratio. At any rate I am still looking to see if there is anything I have missed. Going to check the carb sync before I pull the manifold. Have mad a sync tool so I will let you all know what I have found with that. But I still don't thinkthat would prevent #4 from firing. I know I have bench sync'd carbs before and got very close. I sync'd 4 2 barrel carbs on the bench and they were so close there was no need to modify when they were installed on the engine.
Thanks for the input, and keep any ideas coming. There is no such thing as a dumb idea when you chase gremlins like this one. This little rat will eventually be found and disposed of with everyones help...lol

Chris

User avatar
Fred Camper
Posts: 1152
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:15 pm
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
Motorcycle: 1977 GL1000, 1976 LTD GL1000

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby Fred Camper » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:46 pm

Chris, I think you are spot on. Cylinder 4 must be too lean. Did you try to measure the gas in bowl 4 as you drain it and compare it to another. Got to something preventing good fuel flow, yet it gets some.

User avatar
chrisraven
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:08 am
Location: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
Motorcycle: 1977 GL1000, 1986 GL1200, 2009 GL1800, 1986 Honda V750

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby chrisraven » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:24 am

Fred Camper wrote:Chris, I think you are spot on. Cylinder 4 must be too lean. Did you try to measure the gas in bowl 4 as you drain it and compare it to another. Got to something preventing good fuel flow, yet it gets some.


Hi Fred: Yes did that last time actually with a vernier. I supported the manifold and dropped the carb bowls without spilling anything. All the fuel levels were within a few thousands of each other. But I will take it off and blow it out again and see if there is something that I missed. Don't think so but am willing to give it a go and see. I am going to do a quick check with my homemade sync tool. I see somebody else had come up with the fish tank distribution setup to one gauge. So we will see how it works out.

Thanks for you input.
Chris

TheArtist
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:13 pm
Location: dell rapids
Motorcycle: 1979 GL 1000

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby TheArtist » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:56 am

Still sounds like a carb issue. I tried the bench sync, and was supprised how far I was off according to the vac gauges. Also number 4 still could be starving under power. Just a guess.

bfvc702
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:16 pm
Location: Bloomfield, NM
Motorcycle: 1983 GL 1100

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby bfvc702 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:28 pm

YOUR NOT ALONE:

I Have the exact same problem, except mine is with Cyl # 3. I have checked nearly all the same things as you have with no indication of the true problem. Might add however, I sprayed starter fluid into the vacuum test port and got a definite ignition response. So, I'm also thinking a fluid flow problem. Would like to hear about any success you have.

User avatar
chrisraven
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:08 am
Location: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
Motorcycle: 1977 GL1000, 1986 GL1200, 2009 GL1800, 1986 Honda V750

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby chrisraven » Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:27 am

bfvc702 wrote:YOUR NOT ALONE:

I Have the exact same problem, except mine is with Cyl # 3. I have checked nearly all the same things as you have with no indication of the true problem. Might add however, I sprayed starter fluid into the vacuum test port and got a definite ignition response. So, I'm also thinking a fluid flow problem. Would like to hear about any success you have.


Will let you know how it workds out. I tried some carb cleaner through the intake and got no change, but I am going to get some ether (Starting Fluid) and give that a try and see what happens.
I tried my homemade sync tool, but got some really strange results, had the needle jumping about half way round the gauge, but if I brought another cylinder on line then it would go steady as a rock at about 5 pounds. Anyone here can actually give me how to use one of these things properly on the GL, for some reason I am having trouble getting stable readings. Think I might just find a more suitable switch block, or just buy the right tool. Though it irks me to spend money for no good reason. Once it's sync'd then you shouldn't have to do it again for a long time.

At any rate I appreciate the input from everyone, thanks a lot, and keep those ideas coming. This is quite a mystery as to why it is not firing.

Chris

icemonster
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 3:41 am
Location: Gent, Belgium
Motorcycle: 1980 GL1000 goldwing

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby icemonster » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:13 am

Hi Chris,

Have you tried to run the motor without the fuel pump? close the original gastank, and by-pass the fuelpump with an external tank in a higher position than the engine. This way you use the natural force of Newton. It is possible that the fuelpump is no longer strong enough to feed all the carbs. It is also possible to clean the carbs that way. I used the window water tank from a Chevy Van and connected it direcly to the carbs. That way you by-pass the filter and pump. Pour the carb cleaner product in, 250ml, and start the engine. Then i let it run on iddle till the tank is empty. Reconnect the original lines and start the engine. It never hurts to try..... :roll:

Ice

TheArtist
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:13 pm
Location: dell rapids
Motorcycle: 1979 GL 1000

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby TheArtist » Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:56 am

I bought the 4 gauge set up from Saber for around $50. They have needle vavles to help with the bounce. Also do it as the manual says, start with 3 and set the idle, then 1. I had a problem getting one to set and found on one of the forums about changing the washers to get more adjustment. Good luck.

User avatar
Fred Camper
Posts: 1152
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:15 pm
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
Motorcycle: 1977 GL1000, 1976 LTD GL1000

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby Fred Camper » Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:07 pm

TA used the S word, bad news.

User avatar
damorsoft
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:31 pm
Location: Canada
Motorcycle: 1980 GL1100 standard

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby damorsoft » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:44 pm

The balance adjustment in #4 is bound up. If you tried turning the adjustment screw you would see no adjustment. I had to pull the throttle shaft out of mine polish it up and re-assemble. Spray it up good and wiggle it maybe it will come free. That cylinder is getting no air/fuel at idle but will run OK off idle.

User avatar
chrisraven
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:08 am
Location: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
Motorcycle: 1977 GL1000, 1986 GL1200, 2009 GL1800, 1986 Honda V750

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby chrisraven » Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:42 am

damorsoft wrote:The balance adjustment in #4 is bound up. If you tried turning the adjustment screw you would see no adjustment. I had to pull the throttle shaft out of mine polish it up and re-assemble. Spray it up good and wiggle it maybe it will come free. That cylinder is getting no air/fuel at idle but will run OK off idle.



Good idea, and I would like to follow it up. Problem is that the cylinder doesn't fire above the idle either. When I rev it up the engine seems to run "boggie", not sharp and crisp . Kind of sounds like a blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa instead of the sharp report of all the cylinders running. I can hold it at 4 to 6 thousand rpms and still no sharp response. If I snap the trottle forward (up) the engine just drags itself up. The throttle response should be much more responsive than that.
I will give your idea a try and see what happens with it. Thanks for your input. I have had no success as of yet, but will keep looking.'

Thanks
Chris

bondo343
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:17 pm
Location: phoenix, az
Motorcycle: 1976 gl1000

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby bondo343 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:50 pm

hi,

i'm very curious if you've resolved your issue.

i'm having a similar problem with my cylinder #1, but the pipe gets hotter when i rev it, so it does seem to be firing off idle. but if i run it and don't rev it so much, pipe is cold.

i know its not electrical as i've switched the coils, plug wires, and plugs between cylinder pairs, and still runs fine on 3 cylinders but not the #1

every once in a while it seems to hit while idling, but i have no real solid indication.

the only things that i just found out about but i haven't tried is the balancing adjuster being bound up, and the possibility of the plug that covers the idle jet is missing causing it to be super rich. (last testimonial on this page - http://www.randakks.com/Carb%20Parts.htm). i am going to look into this next.

just want to get this problem resolved and done with, so im super interested if you ever made out on this or not

thanks

joe

User avatar
damorsoft
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:31 pm
Location: Canada
Motorcycle: 1980 GL1100 standard

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby damorsoft » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:08 pm

In my case it was #4 that was bad, the problems was the throttle plate was closed tight at idle so thing worked great off idle. The balance adjustment was rusted tight so there was no way to adjust the plate open for some idle air.
That would not be your issue, but you could try to adjust the #1 balance screw to open up the throttle plate a bit and see if it starts to idle on all 4.

Good Luck

User avatar
chrisraven
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:08 am
Location: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
Motorcycle: 1977 GL1000, 1986 GL1200, 2009 GL1800, 1986 Honda V750

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby chrisraven » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:42 am

bondo343 wrote:hi,

i'm very curious if you've resolved your issue.

i'm having a similar problem with my cylinder #1, but the pipe gets hotter when i rev it, so it does seem to be firing off idle. but if i run it and don't rev it so much, pipe is cold.

i know its not electrical as i've switched the coils, plug wires, and plugs between cylinder pairs, and still runs fine on 3 cylinders but not the #1

every once in a while it seems to hit while idling, but i have no real solid indication.

the only things that i just found out about but i haven't tried is the balancing adjuster being bound up, and the possibility of the plug that covers the idle jet is missing causing it to be super rich. (last testimonial on this page - http://www.randakks.com/Carb%20Parts.htm). i am going to look into this next.

just want to get this problem resolved and done with, so im super interested if you ever made out on this or not

thanks

joe



Hi Joe: Have not yet resolved the issue, I'm thinking it may be sticking intake valves. The reason for this thought is the popping back through all 4 cylinders, seemingly in the firing ordeer sequence. So my next project will be to remove the heads and do a complete top end, measuring everything before it comes apart. Then it's apart right to the last nut, bolt, spring, washer.....etc..... I'm really thinking this could actually be the problem. Even though I have good compression, it is not 175 psi, so maybe there is a sticking valve. After all the unit has been sitting for 25 years. After I resolve this then I have to get into the wiring to get the tank gauge working.

Thanks for your interest, and any ideas are apprecieated.

Chris

bondo343
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:17 pm
Location: phoenix, az
Motorcycle: 1976 gl1000

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby bondo343 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:40 am

hi,

thought of a few more suggestions.

i know we've both been thru the carbs, but check this thread - http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/forum4/5295.html

if you have access to a leak down tester, i would do a leak down test to determine if your valve is leaking. i bought mine from harbor freight for 40 bucks. its a real nice diagnostic tool, and will tell you for sure if the intake valve is sealing.

for sticky valves, i use some sea foam and a spray bottle. i start the engine with the air box off so i have access to the air box side of the carbs. while running, spray one spray of sea foam into one of the carbs. the bike will stutter a little, but then big black clouds of smoke will start coming out of the exhaust. i do this a few times for each carb. then use some sea foam in the next tank of gas and go for a good ride. usually works well, and the clouds of smoke tell me it has cleaned the engine out for sure.

hope we can get this resolved and get these beasts back on the road


thanks

joe

bondo343
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:17 pm
Location: phoenix, az
Motorcycle: 1976 gl1000

Re: Number Four Doesn't Fire

Postby bondo343 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:08 pm

hi,

well i've got possible bad news for myself. i did leakdown this morning, and my #1 cylinder has a leaking intake valve. leakdown on all other cylinders was fine. i've not yet checked valve clearances, as i was hoping to not have to open the engine up at all. so hopefully the clearance is just tight and i'll not have to pull the head to lap the valves.

i would definitely recommend knowing whats up for sure b4 tearing it down.

good luck

joe




Return to “GL1000 Information & Questions”




Who is online

Users browsing this forum: dingdong and 1 guest