Timing belt information GL1100 Standard


Information and questions on GL1100 Goldwings (1980-1983)
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Benny
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Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby Benny » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:16 pm



Hi,

I am new to this forum and I am looking at buying a 1980 GL 1100 standard with 69,000Kms and wondered if it is possible to check if the timing belt has been replaced with the motor in the frame? This would be around 40,000 miles and would the bike be due at this mileage and age if it has never been replaced?

The bike is in very good condition overall, but misses at around 5K rpm and I suspect it needs a good carb cleaning ( Seafoam if I'm lucky) or carb rebuild as it has not been ridden very much lately.

Is there anything I should be looking for that was an issue with this model. The neutral light is not working and the air shock monitor light is intermittent, but I feel I can deal with these issues.

Thank You,

David



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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby WingAdmin » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:05 pm

There is no way to tell if the timing belts have been changed, unless the previous owner tells you (and you trust they are telling the truth).

First off, you can change the timing belts without removing the engine - it's not too bad of a job, a couple of hours at most.

However, you can't tell the age or condition of the timing belts just by looking at them. Unlike regular drive/serpentine belts, timing belts are designed not to stretch at ALL - not the tiniest bit - because this would throw the timing off. As such, they don't crack and fail like regular belts. A timing belt that is about to fail can look exactly the same as one that will run for another 50,000 miles.

Two things are at play here: mileage and age. At 69,000 km (43,000 miles) you're definitely at the mileage where they should be done. But if you don't know for SURE when they were last done - you might want to assume that they were NEVER done, assume they are 30 years old, and put them on the top of your list.

Timing belts are relatively cheap, and can be bought at NAPA. Having one break will do enough damage to the engine that it is cheaper to buy a new (used) engine.

You might also want to check the fuel filter if it's missing at high RPM's.

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby Benny » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:41 pm

Wing Admin,

Good advice and confirmation of what I was thinking already. The bike is at a local Honda dealer with the PO having them look into the missing at higher RPM. It will come down to what they find and if we can reach a reasonable price for both of us.

Cheers,

David

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby dnvldw14874 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:09 am

Do you have or can you get the part number for the timing belt from NAPA. And could someone do a tutorial on how to change them. Is it like on a car where you line up points? What position does the engine have to be in when you put it on the pulleys? How do i tell what position the engine is in?

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby WingAdmin » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:53 am

dnvldw14874 wrote:Do you have or can you get the part number for the timing belt from NAPA. And could someone do a tutorial on how to change them. Is it like on a car where you line up points? What position does the engine have to be in when you put it on the pulleys? How do i tell what position the engine is in?


The number one most requested tutorial - I plan to create one soon.

There's one for the GL1000 that is very similar to the GL1100 here.

Gates and NAPA (the NAPA brand is made by Gates) make quality replacements that most of us use, and they are a fraction of the price of the Honda OEM belts:

Honda part #14400-371-04/14400-371-14
Gates #T274
NAPA #250274
Goodyear Gatorback #40274

I would beware of the Chinese "unknown source" belts sold by vendors such as Saber Cycle.

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby dnvldw14874 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:06 pm

Oh. You're good! I found that and posted it already. I come back here, and found your reply. Thank you. I put it up in the DIY section for all to see until you get your own made. Is that even allowed: to post stuff in DIY that is found on other sites?

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby WingAdmin » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:35 pm

Sure, I don't mind! I just need to find half a day or so to pull belts off and put them back on, while taking pictures. My bike doesn't need it yet, so I was planning to do it to my spare engine.

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby dnvldw14874 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:17 pm

I have the engine that was on the bike when I got it still, and would love to rebuild it so that I too can have a spare engine. What all does one do to an engine to rebuild it? That would be an awesome tutorial!!! Maybe I will take a camera out to the garage with me when I do this. I would like to get all of the stuff to start it while on a stand once I get it rebuilt. I was thinking of getting a main wiring harness and doing it that way (connecting things that need to be connected to it) any Idea of how to do this, what all I will need?

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby dnvldw14874 » Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:24 am

The Gates brand is the same as the NAPA? That is funny considering I read a post that a Gates distributer put up on another site, saying that the NAPA were inferior to the Gates belts. Figures that a salesman would say that. They cost the same in my area anyways.

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby dwight007fchr » Sun May 15, 2011 8:35 am

WingAdmin wrote:I would beware of the Chinese "unknown source" belts sold by vendors such as Saber Cycle.



WingAdmin......I unfortunately just ordered new Timing Belts and other supplies from this vendor "Saber Cycle". Now I am worried that these belts will be inferior. Has anyone else used this supplier and these Timing Belts? I would appreciate any feedback on this. I am tempted to find a better brand and "attempt" to send these el-cheapos ($33) back.

Another question: When I removed the timing belt covers on my 83 Interstate, I was surprised to see that the "left" side (as your sitting on the Wing) cover had its outer bolt much longer than the other 3 bolts. Is this standard on this year, or did someone goof in the past and insert the wrong bolt?



I also see where a mechanic used black felt marker to draw "arrows" on the pulleys showing which way they turn. Is this standard from the factory, or does it indicate that sometime in the wing's history the timing belts were probably replaced? (Mileage is 68,000 and the past 2 owners imply that they have no knowledge of the belts being changed during the past 45,000 miles) Would be great if there was a date stamp on the timing belts so we could determine their age. Unfortunately no writing on the inside covers showing a replacement date/mileage.

Thanks.
dc

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby eklimek » Sun May 15, 2011 10:56 am

"Unfortunately no writing on the inside covers showing a replacement date/mileage."

Great idea to mark on the covers.

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby WingAdmin » Sun May 15, 2011 7:11 pm

dwight007fchr wrote:WingAdmin......I unfortunately just ordered new Timing Belts and other supplies from this vendor "Saber Cycle". Now I am worried that these belts will be inferior. Has anyone else used this supplier and these Timing Belts? I would appreciate any feedback on this. I am tempted to find a better brand and "attempt" to send these el-cheapos ($33) back.

Another question: When I removed the timing belt covers on my 83 Interstate, I was surprised to see that the "left" side (as your sitting on the Wing) cover had its outer bolt much longer than the other 3 bolts. Is this standard on this year, or did someone goof in the past and insert the wrong bolt?

I also see where a mechanic used black felt marker to draw "arrows" on the pulleys showing which way they turn. Is this standard from the factory, or does it indicate that sometime in the wing's history the timing belts were probably replaced? (Mileage is 68,000 and the past 2 owners imply that they have no knowledge of the belts being changed during the past 45,000 miles) Would be great if there was a date stamp on the timing belts so we could determine their age. Unfortunately no writing on the inside covers showing a replacement date/mileage.


If you do a bit of research on the web, I think you'll find everything you ever wanted (or in your case, didn't want) to know about Saber Cycle. They sell a lot of junk, and have legendary horrible customer service, where they will send insulting emails full of profanity, blaming you for everything, should you attempt to return anything or question them. :)

When it comes to timing belts...well, let's just say their belts are cheap for a reason. For something as critical as timing belts, I would pitch the Saber Cycle belts and buy a quality set from Napa or from a Honda dealer.

As for the long bolt, yes - the leftmost bolt is a 6x54, whereas the others are 6x45.5, so it's 8.5mm longer than the other three.

It's possible the arrows mean the belts were replaced...but you can't know for sure. I don't really know why you would put arrows on the pulleys for the timing belt change - it's not like they are rotated during the procedure.

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby dwight007fchr » Sun May 15, 2011 9:03 pm

Wingman.....Thanks for this information. I did as you suggested and did some checking into other buyer's complaints with Saber Cycles.....this vendor is the pits! I found out that many of them got the same rude insulting emails from SaberCycle as I got from him last night. I just cancelled my entire order....timing belts, throttle cables, carb sync kit, filters, etc. I did not realize he was selling inferior junk, and I do not need a set of timing belts that will break causing a serious accident. How does a derelict like SaberCycle stay in business?

Thanks for verifying that one of the timing cover bolts is longer than the other three.....had me a bit concerned.

Arrow marks on the timing gears.....I agree.....what help would it be for a mechanic to draw arrows showing which way the timing gears turn? Since it appears this does not occur at the factory, I suppose a new timing belt was installed around 25,000 miles.......maybe the first owner was extra-cautious and changed out early.

Another curious question.....while searching on Ebay, I found alot of sellers selling USED Timing Belts. Why in earth would someone take all this time and work in replacing timing belts with USED timing belts? The ones they are putting on are probably in worse shape than the ones they would be taking off (especially when I read about the delicate nature of these belts and how to handle them correctly).

Do you recomend any one supplier online who sells quality goods (timing belts, throttle cables, filters, etc.), unlike what Saber Cycle offers?

Thanks.
dc

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby RexAubrey » Sun May 15, 2011 9:11 pm

DC,

I just got 2 timing belts and 2 gallons of 50/50 antifreeze from NAPA only cost me about $41. Not positive on the price, son got them for me he works there. Still, if it costs a little more it is still less than the price of a new engine 8-).

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby dwight007fchr » Sun May 15, 2011 9:16 pm

Thanks Rex......I will try the local NAPA store for the timing belts.

Still looking for the throttle cables......I dont trust EBAY anymore.

dc.

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby WingAdmin » Mon May 16, 2011 9:31 pm

dwight007fchr wrote:Thanks Rex......I will try the local NAPA store for the timing belts.

Still looking for the throttle cables......I dont trust EBAY anymore.

dc.


I got my throttle cables from Puget Sound Motorcycles, through their eBay store, and they were fast and of excellent quality.

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby dwight007fchr » Mon May 16, 2011 9:42 pm

Wingman.......I tried Puget a few times, but they are out of stock. I found from another source, and ordered Gates timing belts locally. That idiot at Saber Cycles has been sending me arrogant and pathetic emails....I am amazed the lunatic is still in business.....I have never had to deal with such a stupid and arrogant merchant in my life. He had not even shipped the order, and said he would ship anyway and let me deal with the frustrations instead of him. I called my credit card company and filed a dispute immediately. This idiot should be forced out of business. Everyone----STAY AWAY FROM SABER CYCLES IN MISSOURI.

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby WingAdmin » Mon May 16, 2011 10:06 pm

Believe it or not, "that idiot" at Saber Cycles is actually a woman. :)

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby dwight007fchr » Mon May 16, 2011 10:32 pm

Wingman.......Interesting....Saber Cycle "idiot" is a woman. Well, the word "idiot" takes no exception to either man or woman. Talk about someone in need of an attitude adjustment....she meets all criteria.

One final question regarding the Goldwing timing belts. Why do they even have those 2 idle pulley springs if we tighten the nuts so the idle pulleys do not move? I would have thought that a fixed amount of tension form springs would maintain the tension better, especially as the belts wear-in. Perhaps that there would not be sufficient spring tension at high torque and rpms?

dc.

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby WingAdmin » Mon May 16, 2011 11:01 pm

If the pulleys were to move during operation, it could allow the belt enough slack to skip a tooth or worse. The springs on those tensioners are designed to put exactly the right amount of tension on the belts. The belts do not stretch - ever - so once you have the tensioners in the correct spot, you can tighten them, and the correct tension will be held there.

However...in real life, those 25-year old springs often have lost a lot of their springiness, and do not apply sufficient pressure on the belts. Therefore it's good to double-check the belt deflection after the tensioners have been tightened.

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby dwight007fchr » Tue May 17, 2011 9:05 am

Wingman........good point about the belt springs losing some of their tension over 28 years. I will definately check the belt deflection when I put the new belts on.

After I check, re-check, and check again the timing mark positions, and hand-spin the engine a couple times with the plugs out.....to be sure there is nothing wrong.....do you think it a good idea to go ahead and check the valve clearances in case this belt change caused a slight change in these tolerances? (I got your link to the great "how-to" on timing belt installation on the other site, and will follow it to a Tee).

Also, is it a good idea to crank her up for a minute (without the belt covers and radiator installed), just to check the noise from the tension rollers? When the belts are off, I will do a quick test on the rollers by applying pressure up/down/and sideways. They should be firm and have about 0 tolerance/movement, and no restriction to their rolling ability? Do you have any idea as to the maximum tolerance they can have before needing to replace?

I was tempted to apply oil to the bearings, but someone sent a copy of the1200 manual that strictly said not to do this as the oil can get on the belts and ruin them. You agree, or a couple drops would be fine?
Thanks.
dc

Thanks.

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby RexAubrey » Tue May 17, 2011 9:24 am

Just my opinion, I would not put any oil on the tensioner. At the speed the tensioner spins it is bound to sling any added oil and that would be detrimental to the timing belts.

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby WingAdmin » Tue May 17, 2011 1:25 pm

The valve clearances cannot change from a belt change. The only way this would occur is if the old belt slipped a tooth (or was installed incorrectly), and the valves were adjusted while the belt was on incorrectly - in that case, the valve clearances would have to be redone once the new belts were put on correctly.

It can't hurt to run up the bike without the covers on to give the tensioners a listen - however, it's common practice to remove the radiator in order to facilitate removing the belt covers - so unless you are planning to reinstall the radiator, run the engine, drain and remove the radiator, reinstall the covers...well, I guess it's your call.

The rollers should spin freely, but should have no "wiggle" to them up or down, or side to side. The bearings are sealed, so oil would do absolutely no good, and could deteriorate the belts prematurely. No oil on the tensioners!

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby dwight007fchr » Tue May 17, 2011 7:25 pm

Wingman.........Thanks for your comments. Yes, I took the radiator off, and thought you could run these engines for a quick minute with no water/no radiator connected.......just to listen to the belt rollers. That way, if the tensioner rollers are bad, they can be replaced before putting everything back together. Thumbs up or down on this idea?

Yea, you are right.....valve clearances should be unchanged from a belt change.....guess I have a timing belt on the wrong tooth up in my head.....will have to get that checked out sometime.

Got it......no oil on the tensioners......both you and Rex vetoed that idea, and I now concur.

DC

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Re: Timing belt information GL1100 Standard

Postby WingAdmin » Tue May 17, 2011 11:58 pm

You can try running your engine with no coolant in it, but I wouldn't do it to mine. :)

If you really wanted to do it, you could pop the radiator hoses onto their fittings (without bothering to clamp them in place), fill the radiator with distilled water, and run it like that - distilled water is cheap, and you get the extra bonus of flushing your cooling system when you pull it back off to reassemble everything.




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