carb issue


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AMXER
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Motorcycle: 1982 GL1100 Interstate

carb issue

Postby AMXER » Thu May 31, 2012 7:26 pm



As my frustration starts to build I am turning to this list for help once again from anyone with suggestions. I had some flooding issues with my 82 GL1100I after being parked for the winter, after some checking found the carbs were very dirty with a lot of sediment in the carbs. I decided from searching the list to go with Randakks master rebuild kit along with the manual from him on rebuilding the carbs. It all seemed to go very well, everything came apart easily and cleaned up quite good and reassemled quite good. Now I'm trying to get them set up with the idle air mixtures and syncronizing. I bought a set of gauges a while back for this purpose and I calibrated them all to each other first. The manual says to adjust the idle mixture screws in until the idle drops then back out 3/4 of a turn, and keep adjusting back to approx. 950 rpm I have done this on all 4 carbs. The idle mixture screw has no effect on #3 carb at all, I can turn it all the way in with no change at all in idle quality and cannot get the vacuum under 15 inches on carb #3. I get a reading of approx 8 inches vac on the rest. I hope someone can help as I'm ready to push it to the corner of the garage and put the cover on it for awhile.
Thanks in advance Terry M



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virgilmobile
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Re: carb issue

Postby virgilmobile » Thu May 31, 2012 11:12 pm

Ok....When carbs have different vacuum readings it means that there is a unequal amount of air flowing through them.Thus the reason for the sync.
If you run a engine at 1000 rpm and close just one throttle valve,the rpm will drop and the vacuum will rise on that one carb.
So... if you have 3 carbs about the same and one with a higher vacuum,you need to open the throttle on that carb and lower the throttle(sync screws)for the other 3.
Now if your talking about the high vacuum on the right rear carb,it is the base line carb and the throttle is set with the idle screw.

You would effectively need to turn up the idle on that one and turn down the other 3 carbs .
Make sense???

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SteveB123
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Re: carb issue

Postby SteveB123 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:35 am

Those idle vacuum readings are unusually low (assuming the gauges are accurate)....and the idle mixture screw having no effect on #3 is also really odd.
There is definetly something amiss here!
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Previous: 93 GSX1100F Katana
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AMXER
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Re: carb issue

Postby AMXER » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:49 am

That does make sense for the sync process, it actually makes more sense to me than it did before. I still don't quite get why the idle air mixture screw wouldn't make any difference, if I'm getting this right, the throttle on #3 being closed too much would cause my high vacuum reading on that carb. But wouldn't the throttle being closed also make the idle air mixture screw have an effect. I will be back at it after work tonight and will try the idle adjustments suggested, it does make sense except for the idle mixture screw. I could be just having a hard time getting my head around this.
Thanks Terry

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RBGERSON
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Re: carb issue

Postby RBGERSON » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:28 am

I f you are turning the true idle mixture screw VS the synch bolt/nut or the idle adjusting bolt..and it's not doing anything the tip could be broken off in the carb..not good..but if someone tighten it up it could have broken off..pull the screw all the way out and look at the tip..see if it's looks all there..if it's broken off start looking for a new #3 carb.

That screw effect gas flow not air..if the passages is blocked it is another reason why nothing is happening. Those are the only two things I can think of that will cause what you are describing.
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SteveB123
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Re: carb issue

Postby SteveB123 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:36 pm

RBGERSON wrote:That screw effect gas flow not air..if the passages is blocked it is another reason why nothing is happening. Those are the only two things I can think of that will cause what you are describing.


AND, if so, would that not block fuel flow to the idle circuits, requiring the throttle plates to be set farther open to achieve an idle, using the mid range fuel circuits?
THAT would certainly lower the vacuum at "idle"!

Just thinking out loud, via my keyboard.
Current:82 GL1100 Interstate, 60 Amp Poorboy, MSD coil
Previous: 93 GSX1100F Katana
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AMXER
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Re: carb issue

Postby AMXER » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:42 pm

I tried tonight to adjust the idle sync screws on the carbs to get the vacuum down on # 3 carb but with minor changes and worse running condition. I pulled the idle mixture screw from #3 carb to check to see if the tip was broken off. It was ok with spring, washer and o-ring intact. I was super careful with the reassembly as the manual explains the problem of overtightening these. I was happy with the results of double checking it. I tried adjusting the idle air mixture screw again with no change, it makes no difference at all on #3 carb. I can turn the screw all the way in or almost all the way out with no effect. Next I guess I'll be taking the carbs back off and check for a blockage, I'm possitive I checked everything when I was cleaning them, but you start to second guess everything when things aren't going right.
Thanks Terry

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virgilmobile
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Re: carb issue

Postby virgilmobile » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:21 pm

Ok.Slow down and let's get common on the terms and procedures.I think your turning the wrong screws.
The idle screw is a idle circuit fuel delivery control preset and is adjusted AFTER a proper sync.It makes only small change in the fuel idle delivery system.
You must get the sync right and then adjust the idle needle valves for the idle down adjustment.
The idle screw will NO affect on the vacuum.
The vacuum is controlled by how far the THROTTLE valve is open.If you completely close #3 carb,the vacuum will be very high.To keep the bike running,your just opening up the other 3 carbs.

I would suggest this approach.
The idle screw...not the idle sync screw with the needle and spring,the big one on the throttle plate....Turn it out till the throttle stops moving.This sets #3 carb closed.(Right rear carb)
Loosen the other 3 lock nuts on each carb.
Starting on the right front,slowly adjust the screw till you can tell the throttle is closed.Mess with it a few times,push on it ,you can tell when it stops moving.
Move to the left side and do the same on those two.You will go back and forth a few times to get the knack of it,
What we are trying to do is close all 4 throttle valves at the same time.
Just wait for this....If you can get all 4 of them closed at the same time,or even close,you should see a dramatic improvement in the vacuum readings right away.
When your ready,turn in the idle screw just one turn after it starts to open the throttle.
START THE BIKE AND ADJUST THE SAME SCREW FOR 1000 RPM.
Now you can sync them because you have pre-set the throttle plates all the same.It takes a gentle turn on the screw,just a 1/4 turn will upset the balance.This takes time.

Only after the sync should you mess with the idle set screws.I usually pre-set them at 3 turns out,or whatever the book called for.Rarely do they need tweaking.

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AMXER
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Re: carb issue

Postby AMXER » Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:49 am

I will start back at the beginning of adjustments and try your suggested method, pulling the carbs again will be my last resort. Your explanation makes sense and I'm pretty sure I am refering to the correct screws but might be doing a different sequence. I am new at doing this type of repair on a bike, my order of adjustments came from the manual I got from Randakks. I appreciate the advice and am hopefull to be riding by the end of the weekend.
Thanks Terry

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AMXER
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Re: carb issue

Postby AMXER » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:56 pm

Thanks to the help from those on the forum I finally got the carbs syncronized pretty close. I'm still not sure everything is correct though, I set all throttle plates closed and then adjusted the main idle screw on #3 up 1 turn and started the bike and warmed it up. Then allowing vacuum to my guages had 15 in on #3 and 10 on #1 and 6 on #2 and #4. I managed to get 1 and 3 to 10in and 2 and 4 to 7in. By the time I could get 2 and 4 balanced to 1 and 3 at 9in vacuum the sync screw on #4 has completely compressed the spring on that screw, this doesn't seem right. I know it was not even close to that tight before I took the carbs off. Also I need to disconnect the throttle cables again to check for binding as the throttle seems to stick around 3000-4000rpm.
Thanks Terry

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virgilmobile
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Re: carb issue

Postby virgilmobile » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:54 pm

Was it at 3000 rpm when you first started to sync it this time?Or did it climb up there during the sync?
Each time you make an adjustment,you MUST readjust the idle back to 1000 rpm with the idle screw at the cable throttle plate.
So you start at 1000 rpm...adjust the right side for the same vacuum,readjust the idle,adjust it again till the right side is equal at 1000 rpm.
Do exactly the same for the left side.
You may have to go back and adjust the sync and the idle a few times.

Finally sync the left to the right.All the time trying to keep it set at 1000 rpm.
Ya kinda have to go back and forth a few times.
Stop worrying about the numbers.Look for equality on all four at 1000 rpm.
When your done it should idle at 900 rpm and pull equal vacuum on all four cylinders.It doesn't matter what the numbers are.

Syncing must be done at a low rpm.This is where just 1/8 of a turn makes a difference.At 3000 rpm you can turn the screws till they bottom out and you'll not see much difference.

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patbrandon1
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Re: carb issue

Postby patbrandon1 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:38 am

Aren't the men on here fantastic?! Never have I seen so much willingness to help, and patience to boot.

Maybe have a look at this link to the how to sync your carbs. Try not to overthink this. It is really pretty simple when you get the hang of it. Breathe and relax. The numbers are not important, as Virgil stated. But all your gauges need to have an error reading taken from them. Look closely at step 18 in this link. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=81

Keep us posted.

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AMXER
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Re: carb issue

Postby AMXER » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:47 am

I agree, the advice and willingness to help is incredible and appreciated. I wasn't 100% clear in my results, the carbs are all in sync and everything is back together thanks to the help here. The throttle sseems to stick when I rev it above 4000rpm, I will check the routing of my throttle cables tonight. I did start the sync process at 1000 rpm and continue to adjust the idle after each step. Thanks to all who have helped.

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virgilmobile
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Re: carb issue

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:18 am

Good job then.
Does your throttle not snap back closed ? like a binding and you have to roll it back by hand ?
There is a spring behind the throttle plate on the carb body.It can be dislodged or misaligned.
Dragging cables can stick as so can the throttle handle itself.

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AMXER
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Re: carb issue

Postby AMXER » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:39 pm

Well after work I went out to the garage and checked the throttle a couple times with the engine not running, then started it and warmed it up, revved it a few times to 4-5000 rpm with no sticking throttle. I took it out for a ride it had more throttle response and power than it ever seemed like since I bought it, all was going well untill I turned around to come home. It was well warmed up by this time so I decided to open it up a little, once in 5th gear the throttle stuck at 5000 rpm, the throttle handle was not stuck I could turn it back with no change to rpm's, after a few light twists on the handle as if to speed up it finally released to normal. Once home I tried to get it to stick and it would not. Hard to tell what stuck when it won't do it in the garage. Any suggestions?
Thanks Terry

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patbrandon1
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Re: carb issue

Postby patbrandon1 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:56 pm

Seems like your return throttle cable may be sticking, or maybe even broken. Try moving throttle at the carb. Try to get some PB blaster, or other penetrant in the cable. Then you can try to work it. Just might have to get new ones. Do you watch the cable where it attaches to the carb, and does it move the throttle body at all? Just sounds like the return cable is not working right to me.

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Re: carb issue

Postby WingAdmin » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:56 am

It absolutely sounds like the "push" throttle cable is broken. Its job is to forcefully close the throttle should it stick open, like you are experiencing. You should replace that ASAP.

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AMXER
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Re: carb issue

Postby AMXER » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:01 pm

I didn't get time to check it out tonight but if the return cable was broken wouldn't it stick at all throttle positions? I am just wondering why it only stuck only under heavy accelleration and not under normal riding conditions. I'll make time tomorrow night to diagnose the problem further.
Thanks for all the great help and advice.

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Re: carb issue

Postby patbrandon1 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:21 pm

AMXER wrote:I didn't get time to check it out tonight but if the return cable was broken wouldn't it stick at all throttle positions? I am just wondering why it only stuck only under heavy accelleration and not under normal riding conditions. I'll make time tomorrow night to diagnose the problem further.
Thanks for all the great help and advice.


Well, once it gets hot, maybe things bind up more, or the farther you pull the cable, that's where it binds. Either way, the return (push) cable should take the throttle back to idle when you release it or turn it back. That is why there are two cables, so you can get back to idle without so much spring to fight for acceleration.

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AMXER
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Re: carb issue

Postby AMXER » Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:08 pm

I still don't know what stuck but the return cable is definately not broken. I turned the throttle fully and then held #3 linkage by hand full open then twisted the throttle back and it pulled it back with no problem. I will have to check and make sure I didn't change the routing when I put them back on the carb, maybe disconnect them and see how much resistance there is in moving either cable. Hopefully something stupid I have done that is cheap and easy to fix.

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Re: carb issue

Postby WingAdmin » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:00 pm

AMXER wrote:I still don't know what stuck but the return cable is definately not broken. I turned the throttle fully and then held #3 linkage by hand full open then twisted the throttle back and it pulled it back with no problem. I will have to check and make sure I didn't change the routing when I put them back on the carb, maybe disconnect them and see how much resistance there is in moving either cable. Hopefully something stupid I have done that is cheap and easy to fix.


Also check it with the handlebars turned fully left and right.

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AMXER
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Re: carb issue

Postby AMXER » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:57 pm

I found the cause of my sometimes sticking throttle, after disconnecting the cables and not getting them to bind, I operated the throttle at the carbs a few times and they stuck open, but I still couldn't see what was sticking. Disconnected the throttle linkage to #4 carb and tested #2 and #4 with no problems, tested #1 and #3 and they stuck, somehow the little metal rod that has the spring on it to activate the accelerator pump got bent where it connected to the throttle linkage on carb #3. At approx. 3/4 to full throttle it was crooked in the hole and would not allow the linkage to rotate back. I'm glad I found it and that it was something easy and inexpensive to fix. Thanks again for all the help, this forum is great. Happy riding finally.




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