Ignition advance mecanism


Information and questions on GL1100 Goldwings (1980-1983)
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pierredulac
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Ignition advance mecanism

Postby pierredulac » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:09 pm



Can someone give me an answer for my GL1100 1983 ignition question? I did a preventive test of the advance mecanism with a vacuum pump and ithe advance moving at 1.6hg and end at 3.2 at it said in the shop manual. But it cannot hold the vacuum for at least 1 second...it is normal or the vacuum unit is leaking. I can't check if the ignition is correct when the engine's running because the engine motorcycle is all in parts in my garage and i want to solve that before reinstalling the engine.

Thank



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virgilmobile
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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby virgilmobile » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:32 pm

The canister has a hole in the diaphragm. Been there,seen that.
2 choices,fix it or live without the full ignition advance.It's something like an additional 20°
One post fellow replaced his with a Napa part.
Please mark the "at rest"position of the pulse coil before you tear the canister off as it has none there.
Been there too.I'm glad I took pictures. :)

pierredulac
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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby pierredulac » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:36 am

Realy apreciate...i try to find out the past post of the guy who use a NAPA part instead of remplacing the whole Honda gen. pulse set but cannot fid it. Can you tell me what Napa or Blue streak p/n will remplace the original?

Thank

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eklimek
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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby eklimek » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:49 am

Littlebeave is credited with this. See

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7072

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littlebeaver
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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby littlebeaver » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:22 am

Pierredulac, Virgil is correct, it has a hole in the canisters diaphragm or you lost the cover off the adjusting screw on the back of that canister, I would like to show you what happens under that pg cover while the engine is running and the vaccum advance is working properly, it will just lay there doing nothing if the diaphragm has a large hole in it....I hope this helps, I am throttling it so you can see the centrifugal weights moving because of the vaccum ..

If you look hard you will see the spark advance spinning in the center as the engine runs

pierredulac
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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby pierredulac » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:58 pm

Thanks littelbeaver, i know the principle, it's exactly the same on old car with distributor advance. My problem is that part is obsolete from Honda and i can't find a new one on the market. That's bad cause i'm restoring my motorcycle like new and i dont want to fix it with old parts that can break in few days after instaling it. And you know it take a lot of time to reach the vacuum when the bike all set. My engine's off the bike now and i'm waiting for a solution...i hope find it before santa come home... :D

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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby pierredulac » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:12 pm

Can someone try this before...

This Tech Tip is provided courtesy of Howard Halasz - noted GL1100 Guru. Howard is a frequent contributor of technical columns and other information to GWRRA's Wing World Magazine.


"A common failure with all GL1100s is the vacuum advance part of the pulse generator assembly. The units for the 1980 models use a higher advance angle than the unit for the 1981-1983 models.

Unfortunatley, the vacuum portion of this assembly is not rebuildable. GL1100 pulse generators are no longer available from Honda and good used units are hard to find now. But, the work-around is easy. Simply plug the vacuum fitting at the the #3 carburetor - the loss of vacuum advance will never be noticed other than a very slight decrease in fuel economy. Performance loss is also negligible.

If it's working, i'll do that unstead of buying an old part.

thanks

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scotterichmond
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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby scotterichmond » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:28 pm

I have tryed that and was not liking the results
I am in the process of researching a replacement from napa
part # VC 2058 has the same specs and similar demensions. I was not able to get the old honda vaccum pot off, as the fastener does not seem to unscrew. I quit because the part I bought on ebay was "good" and did not want to destroy it. you could pick up where I left off.

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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby littlebeaver » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:26 pm

If Howard says you don't need it, then I guess you don't need it... He is after all an expert... :D Plug it... I don't know what the heck I'm doing half the time anyway..ha ha...I shouldn't give anyone any advise on anything... :D it's usually wrong advise..

pierredulac
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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby pierredulac » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:42 pm

Well...every advices is good but when i'm not sure for the result, i chose the safest way. In that case i'll find a use vacuum advance that work even if i spend $$$

Thank again

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wishbone63
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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby wishbone63 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:04 pm

I plugged mine with a golf tee and a short piece of rubber hose. It made a lot of difference in my bike.

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littlebeaver
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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby littlebeaver » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:45 am

pierredulac wrote:Well...every advices is good but when i'm not sure for the result, i chose the safest way. In that case i'll find a use vacuum advance that work even if i spend $$$

Thank again

Here's what one looked like after I opened it up...I have opened up many of them..

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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby littlebeaver » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:53 am

Here is the auto type vaccum advance I used..
Pierre if you are missing the cover that is over the adjusting screw then you sir will have a leak, you need to check that first, here's a photo of it exposed,,,, If that cover is gone it will leak there I grant you that...Easy test is to hold your figure over it and test it then if it's gone of course..

pierredulac
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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby pierredulac » Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:50 pm

My vacuum actuator still have his cap and it seal ok. I pickup an old one from another motor and when i do the test with my vacuum pump, it make the same result. I pump it to 5 hg then it comes down to 0 in two secondes. I don't know if it's ok because i just purchase that Gl1100 and i didn't ride it before so i'm not quite sure if if was correct. Maybe the engine create enough vacuum to keep the advance right even if the diaphramg have a little leak? What do you think about that? Or maybe i'll open the one i receved and try to pach-it with rubberized product from Loctite?

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littlebeaver
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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby littlebeaver » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:25 pm

Pierre 9 out of 10 diaphragms I looked at had holes in them....

You know that adjustment screw on the back of the cannister in that photo, that's how you raise the setting, clockwise to up it, counter clockwise to lower it...But remember one thing,,I ain't no expert..I just rebuilt one from scratch.. :lol: Nobody is going to tell me I can do something by gosh... :lol: Just because they don't sell them anymore don't mean ship man.. Here's a clue, I fastened the oem lower canister to the aftermarket one, reconfigured the arm to fit the oem arm and sleeve...Replaced the auto spring with the oem spring in the canister..Bingo perfect..The video with the advance working above is my rebuilt one..You should just patch it instead of doing all that though.. might be easier for ya... :D

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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby pierredulac » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:52 pm

Littlebeaver...I'm patching my vacuum advance diaphragm but almost everything is rusted, the diaphragm have 4 little holes in it and maybe not good enough to work for a long time :evil: . Can you tell me what p/n of your auto vacuum you purchase ? I'm gonna build the same vacuum as your...if you want to share your project's confidence.

So you take the Honda lower canister, the spring and integrate the napa upper canister, diaphragm? So your new unit dont have the adjusting screw on it? Is that screw is essential?

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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby littlebeaver » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:19 pm

No it has no adjustment screw on it but the oem spring put it right at 4.00" big deal right.. It holds and works well...I can help you but it's kind tough..You have to figure every correctly because you are removing the threaded sleeve off the oem arm and it's attached to the diaphragm cup, it's studded to the diaphragm.. I removed the sleeve and drilled down thru it via the threaded side with a bit that would not damage the threads, that sleeve must be tapped out from the backside, you have to thread the rod on the new diaphragm to the correct length and fasten it to that sleeve...All the while adding the oem bottom to the aftermarket bottom...See the reason for this is so it will fit back where it came from in its hole in the PG body....I got a typical chevy v-8 advance, open it up like this, grid the upper top edge of the diaphragm with a dremel and a heavy duty blade, or file it all the way around,, then just peel it away, If you decide you want to do this be sure before you start this to mark the plate for a referance spot..I marked two spots...I used JB weld to close it up and also at the threads when I attached the threaded sleeve...I bought the advance on ebay for about 12 bucks..Junk yards are full of them...Here are some photo's with explainations...
aftermarket advance bottom with sleeve attached
aftermarket advance bottom with sleeve attached
Bottom of oem on top of after market bottom
Bottom of oem on top of after market bottom
I am cutting out the stud to get that sleeve free
I am cutting out the stud to get that sleeve free
I'm drilling out the bottom of the sleeve threads are not to be damaged
I'm drilling out the bottom of the sleeve threads are not to be damaged
Last edited by littlebeaver on Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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littlebeaver
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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby littlebeaver » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:32 pm

here's the thing if you are smart which I know you are you will mark the spots where the arm starts and stops as shown in the picture.
Marks at closed and open
Marks at closed and open
when you fasten the sleeve to the oem bottom make sure it will glide in and out smoothly... I used JB Weld to fasten them like glue...Measure the arm length from the oem base and take not of that measurment, You want that measurement when you are done, and allow yourself some turn in if you can...It's very important that the arm is where it was before when you started...Very important..I got mine really close, I had to turn the cannister once to sett the timing on its marks..You must have an inspection sight cap for that and a timing light..Here's what it looks like all buttoned up...I had not painted or sanded anything yet...Pierre I used a welders clamp to clamp the two halves together then had fun with my JB Weld, I put it on top and bottom all the way around, generously..kinda crazy I know but when you do stuff like this it's making it work I didn't care what anyone thought I was on a mission..I have proven it works via video..It might be a lot easier just to patch the holes ha ha...If the vacuum advance looks like the one I have there it's good...I will look up what year it fits or one like it and post it for a reference for you... remember I am an expert at nothing..If you need help setting the timing, turn the canister clockwise to advance it or counter to retard it, as I said you gotta watch it as its idling at 950 rpm to set the marks...
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Buttoned up not painted yet..
Buttoned up not painted yet..

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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby littlebeaver » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:44 pm

If you have any questions I probably have the answers, what size tap and die ect. that's if you are going to tackle this...Lokk on ebay for a vaccum advance ...The spring in that must be change with the one you have,,, it's real firm for the v-8 huge difference...

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eklimek
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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby eklimek » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:18 pm

So, if I got this right, the only part you must refurbish is the diaphragm. But the new diaprgham doesnot fit in the old can, so most of the work is fitting the new can and diaphragm to an original spring and rod? That rquires adjusting rod length so the actual excursion meets the original specs?

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littlebeaver
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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby littlebeaver » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:40 pm

Yes, that is correct sir, I shall give some more photos now...I had to eat some of my wife's gumbo...
after you grind some off the top edge you can just peel the edge off..
after you grind some off the top edge you can just peel the edge off..
tools I used
tools I used
notes of the sleeve
notes of the sleeve
after market diaphragm, you can see the threads after I used the die to make the threads
after market diaphragm, you can see the threads after I used the die to make the threads
Hey fella's there is no end to how to make this work...I looked at many advances, I tryed to find one so I could just replace the diaphragm, but in this case, I used the aftermarket canister, just fastened the oem bottom to it is all, does that make sense..Reconfiguring the diaphragms arm because I'm smart that way ha ha...It's ok, you can laugh at me all you want :lol: .... :shock: ....I clamped the canister together and jb welded it over night...It's held for at least two years now, maybe even longer..Hey look at the VW canister or vaccum advance I'd like to try that one..It might be easier to just patch the holes...Virgilmobile came up with something that worked I think...After I made this work and it held a vacuum and nice and such I then thought to myself, oh man, Will this sucker fit...????Oh man.. :shock: :shock: It fit just fine on my 81, I can't say it will fit all other models because I don't really know,, but it's likely it will...This can be a fun project...Now you guys know how I did it..Too bad they don't sell them new,, someone could probably cut that stud, tap out the sleeve and refasten it with to the original base uasing new diaphragm material...But I have not try that because this worked for me.. :D

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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby pierredulac » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:09 pm

Thank for all the detail...i'm going that way too. Question: How can you control the travel of the the rod if you dont reinstall the sleeve that support the oem spring? Is the diameter of aftermarket vacuum important?

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littlebeaver
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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby littlebeaver » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:12 pm

Here is one I got off ebay, it should show a few model vehicles to look for that have this type advance..http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Buick ... c4&vxp=mtr Pierre you could always just plug it at the Carb....But it won't run like mine :lol: :lol: just kidding...It will be fine if you just do what the experts say...I just need that extra ummmfff for my fatass is all.. :lol: Wow look at my post number, I'm going to have a party when it hits 2012

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littlebeaver
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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby littlebeaver » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:35 pm

[quote="pierredulac"]Thank for all the detail...i'm going that way too. Question: How can you control the travel of the the rod if you dont reinstall the sleeve that support the oem spring? Is the diameter of aftermarket vacuum important?[/quote]

Yes what I did on the travel was I made a stop, remember I made those marks, well if you don't have a stop it will go in too far, I have it so the marks I made before are exactly the same..How did I make the stop, I used JB Weld and carefully went around the sleeve where it needed to be, once it set up I used a utility knife to trim the stop you might mark the sleeve where the stop needs to be and dismantle it to get the jb weld around the sleeve real well, .. , I forgot about that, good question, the diameter of the canister is not important..Just make darn sure that the sleeve slides fine..Whats neat about this is, you can still adjust the arm just like before..How cool is that..See when you spin the canister as I said before to set the timing, all you are doing is turning the threads on that arm... :D I devoted a lot of time playing around with this, my timing is spot on and my vacuum advance does it's job..

pierredulac
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Re: Ignition advance mecanism

Postby pierredulac » Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:43 pm

well done...tried the easy way. Open the canister, cleaned-up, patched whip 3M fast adhesive and sealed the diaphragm on canister with same glue(to make sure there's no leak), spot weld the two canister parts together and finished the seal around with Permatex cold weld. Everyting is tested and i'm very happy with the result. It was the fastest way without changing the diaphragm. I have another defect vacuum for my next project from a car vacuum (the Littlebeaver way). Thank all for your great help.

Pierre
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