Countering ethanol issues


Information and questions on GL1100 Goldwings (1980-1983)
  • Sponsored Links
Oddbirdwithbrokewing
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:38 am
Motorcycle: 1975 gl1000
1983 gl1100A Aspencade

Countering ethanol issues

Postby Oddbirdwithbrokewing » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:07 pm



I have just recently come aware of problems caused by the addition of ethanol
to gasoline. Primarily from GWDocs. I came across an ad in a magazine extolling
the efficacy of this product. http://www.biobor.com/fuel-additives-pr ... -index.php
Just wondering if you gurus are familiar with it? And, are most stabilizors basically the same? Is the added expense of running it all the time worth it .

DISCLAIMER: I have no association, at all, with this product.



User avatar
thrasherg
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:21 am
Location: Plano, TX
Motorcycle: 2004 GL1800, 2005 Honda Shadow 750, 2008 Yamaha R6 with RG500 engine, CRF450X, CRF230, CRF250X, XR200, CR500

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby thrasherg » Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:50 pm

I suspect most people are aware of this issue. My road bikes I run with ethanol and just drain the tank when I lay it up for winter, but I remove the ethanol from the fuel for all my dirt bikes. I fill a 5 gallon plastic gas container with premium gas, I then add 3 cups of water to the gas. Put the lid on the can and shake it as hard as I can for about a minute. I then remove the cap and attach a tap to the filler cap and invert the gas tank and leave it to stand for a few hours. The ethanol in the fuel will bind with the water, and water is denser than gas, so the water and gas will settle out, leaving the water at the bottom of the gas can. I then put a container under the tap and slowly open the tap and drain of less than 1/2 pint of fluid, (make sure the tap and outlet of the gas tank are at the lowest position) at first you will just get water, then you get a bit of water with fuel mixed in (You can see the bubbles of fuel in the water), then you get neat fuel. At that point, shut the tap and now fill your dirt bikes with neat ethanol free gas.. This is obviously too much hassle to do on a road bike, but for my dirt bikes it works great. Use Premium gas because once you remove the ethanol you do lower the rating of the gas so premium (ethanol free gas) will be equivalent to regular gas (With ethanol).

It's really easy, I use a saw horse to hold the gas can and just bought some PVC fittings from home depot to make the tap that I fit to the gas tank to drain of the water/ethanol, mix.

Gary

User avatar
tfdeputydawg
Posts: 899
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:59 am
Location: Indianapolis, In.
Motorcycle: 06 Wing III/2010 Hannigan

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby tfdeputydawg » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:23 am

Since our Wings are engineered to run on 10% Ethanol I don't understand all this concern! Of course I've never understood the rows upon rows of all the additives, magic "fixers" one sees in places like WalMart, AutoZone. etc. We have made Lucas a billionaire by buying "stuff" that is not really needed if one services ones vehicles as suggested by the manufacturer.
Rant over, flame suit on!

User avatar
SteveB123
Posts: 842
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:29 am
Location: Winchester, Ontario, Canada
Motorcycle: 1982 1100I, 60A Poorboy, MSD coil

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby SteveB123 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:31 am

tfdeputydawg wrote:Since our Wings are engineered to run on 10% Ethanol I don't understand all this concern!


Please expand on your theory of how 30+ year old bikes are "engineered to run" on ethanol.
Current:82 GL1100 Interstate, 60 Amp Poorboy, MSD coil
Previous: 93 GSX1100F Katana
82 GL500 Silverwing

User avatar
thrasherg
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:21 am
Location: Plano, TX
Motorcycle: 2004 GL1800, 2005 Honda Shadow 750, 2008 Yamaha R6 with RG500 engine, CRF450X, CRF230, CRF250X, XR200, CR500

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby thrasherg » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:31 pm

Also, to be clear, whilst the 1800 was "engineered to run on Ethanol", ethanol has very negative effects on rubber parts, so whilst Honda used new rubber parts (adapted to better support Ethanol) that last longer with Ethanol fuel, the parts will last even longer with ethanol FREE fuel!! Also the injectors are less prone to sticking if you use Ethanol FREE fuel, so it's still better to run Ethanol FREE fuel if possible on the 1800, and all other models will have the same benefits if you use Ethanol free fuel (rubber parts, fuel lines, float valve seats, etc) will last longer and the carb jets will be less prone to get blocked with sticky goo!!

Gary

User avatar
cbx4evr
Posts: 1397
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:35 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB Canada
Motorcycle: 2000 GL1500SE
2004 Kawasaki KLR 650
Solex 5000
1980 Honda CBX - sold :-(
1981 Honda CBX - sold :-(
Contact:

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby cbx4evr » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:39 pm

"It´s a friggen motorcycle, it´s not supposed to be comfortable, quiet or safe. The wind noise is supposed to hurt your ears, the seat should be hard and riding it should make you s**t your pants every now and then. "

Oddbirdwithbrokewing
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:38 am
Motorcycle: 1975 gl1000
1983 gl1100A Aspencade

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby Oddbirdwithbrokewing » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:09 pm

thrasherg wrote:Also, to be clear, whilst the 1800 was "engineered to run on Ethanol", ethanol has very negative effects on rubber parts, so whilst Honda used new rubber parts (adapted to better support Ethanol) that last longer with Ethanol fuel, the parts will last even longer with ethanol FREE fuel!! Also the injectors are less prone to sticking if you use Ethanol FREE fuel, so it's still better to run Ethanol FREE fuel if possible on the 1800, and all other models will have the same benefits if you use Ethanol free fuel (rubber parts, fuel lines, float valve seats, etc) will last longer and the carb jets will be less prone to get blocked with sticky goo!!

Gary


So the question remains. Do any of the additives live up to their claims to protect engines against the negative effects of ethanol or not?

User avatar
tfdeputydawg
Posts: 899
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:59 am
Location: Indianapolis, In.
Motorcycle: 06 Wing III/2010 Hannigan

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby tfdeputydawg » Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:42 pm

"So the question remains. Do any of the additives live up to their claims to protect engines against the negative effects of ethanol or not?"
As a matter of fact, this statement is included in the link below:
The basic rule is E10 is ok for everything, but E85 can only be used safely in cars that are FlexFuel compatible.
http://www.motorweek.org/features/goss_ ... assic_cars
E-85 is a different story entirely

User avatar
thrasherg
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:21 am
Location: Plano, TX
Motorcycle: 2004 GL1800, 2005 Honda Shadow 750, 2008 Yamaha R6 with RG500 engine, CRF450X, CRF230, CRF250X, XR200, CR500

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby thrasherg » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:05 pm

tfdeputydawg wrote:"So the question remains. Do any of the additives live up to their claims to protect engines against the negative effects of ethanol or not?"
As a matter of fact, this statement is included in the link below:
The basic rule is E10 is ok for everything, but E85 can only be used safely in cars that are FlexFuel compatible.
http://www.motorweek.org/features/goss_ ... assic_cars
E-85 is a different story entirely


The linked article seems to claim that most of these aftermarket products are just snake oil!! One of the simple truths is that Ethanol will not easily bind with gasoline, it is attracted to water, so if ethanol gasoline is stored in a damp environment, the ethanol in the gas will bind with the water in the atmosphere and cause water to appear in your gas tank. This will cause rust and poor running, so you definitely do NOT want to leave any Ethanol gas standing for a long time in a damp environment.. None of the additives can prevent Ethanol binding with water, it is a natural reaction of Ethanol.. :)

Gary

User avatar
tfdeputydawg
Posts: 899
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:59 am
Location: Indianapolis, In.
Motorcycle: 06 Wing III/2010 Hannigan

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby tfdeputydawg » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:28 pm

We all have our opinions.
Does anyone have any factual details of E-10 fuel having any negative results with constant use in any kind of gasoline engine?
No neighbor's 14th cousin twice removed told me, real experience of a problem?

User avatar
SteveB123
Posts: 842
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:29 am
Location: Winchester, Ontario, Canada
Motorcycle: 1982 1100I, 60A Poorboy, MSD coil

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby SteveB123 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:52 pm

thrasherg wrote:The linked article seems to claim that most of these aftermarket products are just snake oil!! One of the simple truths is that Ethanol will not easily bind with gasoline, it is attracted to water, so if ethanol gasoline is stored in a damp environment, the ethanol in the gas will bind with the water in the atmosphere and cause water to appear in your gas tank. This will cause rust and poor running, so you definitely do NOT want to leave any Ethanol gas standing for a long time in a damp environment.. None of the additives can prevent Ethanol binding with water, it is a natural reaction of Ethanol.. :)

Gary


What sort of damp gasoline storage enviroment are you envisioning?

Steve
"Licensed fuel tank installer"
Current:82 GL1100 Interstate, 60 Amp Poorboy, MSD coil
Previous: 93 GSX1100F Katana
82 GL500 Silverwing

User avatar
SteveB123
Posts: 842
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:29 am
Location: Winchester, Ontario, Canada
Motorcycle: 1982 1100I, 60A Poorboy, MSD coil

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby SteveB123 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:56 pm

tfdeputydawg wrote:We all have our opinions.
Does anyone have any factual details of E-10 fuel having any negative results with constant use in any kind of gasoline engine?
No neighbor's 14th cousin twice removed told me, real experience of a problem?


Only when it got old.....many many pulls to start my Briggs powered Toro mower, after several months of on the same fuel.....we had a VERY dry summer last year. :)

Fresh high test (no ethanol), and it was back to one-pull starts. No, I have no idea if fresh ethanol gas would have had the same effect....it certainly could of! :geek:
Current:82 GL1100 Interstate, 60 Amp Poorboy, MSD coil
Previous: 93 GSX1100F Katana
82 GL500 Silverwing

Oddbirdwithbrokewing
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:38 am
Motorcycle: 1975 gl1000
1983 gl1100A Aspencade

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby Oddbirdwithbrokewing » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:06 pm

tfdeputydawg wrote:We all have our opinions.
Does anyone have any factual details of E-10 fuel having any negative results with constant use in any kind of gasoline engine?
No neighbor's 14th cousin twice removed told me, real experience of a problem?


Good question. However the article, itself, said that ethanol would slowly
cause parts to fail.

User avatar
thrasherg
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:21 am
Location: Plano, TX
Motorcycle: 2004 GL1800, 2005 Honda Shadow 750, 2008 Yamaha R6 with RG500 engine, CRF450X, CRF230, CRF250X, XR200, CR500

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby thrasherg » Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:30 am

SteveB123 wrote:
thrasherg wrote:The linked article seems to claim that most of these aftermarket products are just snake oil!! One of the simple truths is that Ethanol will not easily bind with gasoline, it is attracted to water, so if ethanol gasoline is stored in a damp environment, the ethanol in the gas will bind with the water in the atmosphere and cause water to appear in your gas tank. This will cause rust and poor running, so you definitely do NOT want to leave any Ethanol gas standing for a long time in a damp environment.. None of the additives can prevent Ethanol binding with water, it is a natural reaction of Ethanol.. :)

Gary


What sort of damp gasoline storage enviroment are you envisioning?

Steve
"Licensed fuel tank installer"


My garage in Seattle during the winter months!! Lots of rain outside, so a very high humidity/damp atmosphere. I left a pint of ethanol free gas in an opened metal tin ( this was done last winter) with another tin of E10 gasoline in the same type of can. They where side by side for 2 weeks, I expected the gas to evaporate, but it didn't. However there was a visible amount of water in the E10 can after 2 weeks, but I couldn't see anything in the ethanol free gas.. That was all I needed to know that I must NOT park any gasoline powered vehicle in my garage for more than 2 weeks with E10 gasoline.. Regardless of what the ethanol might do to my engine parts, the water in the fuel will cause poor running and will need me to drain my tank to remove the water.. Something that I don't want to do, so I just put regular ethanol free gas in my vehicles when I am not going to use them for more than 2 weeks.. Not too scientific, but it was enough for me.

Gary

User avatar
tfdeputydawg
Posts: 899
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:59 am
Location: Indianapolis, In.
Motorcycle: 06 Wing III/2010 Hannigan

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby tfdeputydawg » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:39 am

Gas tanks on vehicles are not open containers! But, then I digress. I am not going to belabor this any further.
We make our decisions based on what we think we know!
I myself do not find any problems w/storing, for example, my mower for long periods of time with E-10 in it as long as I also put a fuel stabilizer compatible w/ethanol in the fuel and run the motor long enough to get the mix completely through the system.
My mower and my Wing are both old enough I believe if parts were to deteriorate, it would have happened by now!

User avatar
SteveB123
Posts: 842
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:29 am
Location: Winchester, Ontario, Canada
Motorcycle: 1982 1100I, 60A Poorboy, MSD coil

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby SteveB123 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:12 am

thrasherg wrote:
SteveB123 wrote:

What sort of damp gasoline storage enviroment are you envisioning?

Steve
"Licensed fuel tank installer"


My garage in Seattle during the winter months!! Lots of rain outside, so a very high humidity/damp atmosphere. I left a pint of ethanol free gas in an opened metal tin



If you store ethanol-gasoline illegally and try and force it to absorb water, it will....at least whatever "gasoline" is left, becuase you've lost a fair bit of the major volatile compounds storing it like that.
Legal fuel storage containers, of the sizes I'm familiar with (5 litres to 75,000 litres) have their ullage filled with product fumes, not moist air...particulary volatile products like gasoline.
Same thing on a vehicle, but you have much more control over the ullage. Keep your tank full.
Current:82 GL1100 Interstate, 60 Amp Poorboy, MSD coil
Previous: 93 GSX1100F Katana
82 GL500 Silverwing

User avatar
RBGERSON
Posts: 2625
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:57 am
Location: SCOTTSDALE, AZ
Motorcycle: 98 SE GL 1500
had every year from 75 to 83

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby RBGERSON » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:16 am

This might help some..

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

FAIR WINDS,
RB

User avatar
thrasherg
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:21 am
Location: Plano, TX
Motorcycle: 2004 GL1800, 2005 Honda Shadow 750, 2008 Yamaha R6 with RG500 engine, CRF450X, CRF230, CRF250X, XR200, CR500

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby thrasherg » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:32 am

SteveB123 wrote:
thrasherg wrote:
SteveB123 wrote:

What sort of damp gasoline storage enviroment are you envisioning?

Steve
"Licensed fuel tank installer"


My garage in Seattle during the winter months!! Lots of rain outside, so a very high humidity/damp atmosphere. I left a pint of ethanol free gas in an opened metal tin


If you store ethanol-gasoline illegally and try and force it to absorb water, it will....at least whatever "gasoline" is left, becuase you've lost a fair bit of the major volatile compounds storing it like that.
Legal fuel storage containers, of the sizes I'm familiar with (5 litres to 75,000 litres) have their ullage filled with product fumes, not moist air...particulary volatile products like gasoline.
Same thing on a vehicle, but you have much more control over the ullage. Keep your tank full.


I agree, hence my comment that it wasn't very scientific, I agree my gas tank is not open to the elements (Its full of gasoline vapor), but during the winter it sits for 15 to 20 weeks (not just 2) and I can see E10 does absorb moisture more than ethanol free gas, so it just seems a smart move to not leave E10 in the tank if it's standing for a long time. Maybe adding a fuel stabiliser will help reduce the absorption of water (I haven't read that anywhere, but its possible, it should definitely reduce the loss of the more volatile components from the gasoline, which will help with starting at the end of the storage period) but I just decided to not store with E10.. As stated, each to their own, there is probably no one answer that is 100% correct!! :D

Gary

User avatar
fr1tz
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:22 pm
Location: Vienna, Ohio
Motorcycle: 1982 Aspencade CSC Trike

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby fr1tz » Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:33 pm

Hey Guys I've been reading all the comments about E10 gasoline, I like thrashergs method of removing ethonal. its called phase separation, ethonal absorbs water by one half of one percent by volume weight thats not much water. as far as storage goes for example an out side storage tank expossed to the sun will breath (hot sun during the day and cold evenings) so their for the tank breaths and condensation accurs, a sealed container does not breathe so not to worry about water. what we do need to worry about is the proposed E15 it has been proven to be disastrous to small engines like lawn mowers and our older wings are not designed to handle ethonal at any percentage until you replace all gaskets & seals but theres nothing we can do about big governments policys. The snake oil is supposed to provide a protective lining from the ethonal LOL
again theirs alot of oppinions out hear but this is just the begining - fr1tz

PS draining your fuel system may be just as bad as leaving the system full
Never ride faster than your guardian angle can fly

User avatar
tfdeputydawg
Posts: 899
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:59 am
Location: Indianapolis, In.
Motorcycle: 06 Wing III/2010 Hannigan

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby tfdeputydawg » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:13 am

fr1tz wrote: our older wings are not designed to handle ethonal at any percentage until you replace all gaskets & seals

Sorry to disagree but, to repeat what I posted earlier in this thread:

The basic rule is E10 is ok for everything, but E85 can only be used safely in cars that are FlexFuel compatible.

User avatar
Johnyy Smoke
Posts: 600
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:44 am
Location: Se Minnesota
Motorcycle: 1980 GL1100
Vetter. "Its like Deja Vu all over again".

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby Johnyy Smoke » Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:42 pm

Ethanol at %10 has no detrimentall effects on bikes or cars- and if it should-it would be to miniscule to worry about. This thread is akin to "What oil should I use?" What it boils down to, is common sense, and not much else. Otherwise- subjects such as these just burn up bandwith-and go on and on and on- to no end,or real conclusion. let us talk about "real" problems with Goldwings, repairs and such, and not the improbable ones. Regards, Johnyy

Oddbirdwithbrokewing
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:38 am
Motorcycle: 1975 gl1000
1983 gl1100A Aspencade

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby Oddbirdwithbrokewing » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:14 pm

This thread is akin to "What oil should I use?" What it boils down to, is common sense, and not much else. Otherwise- subjects such as these just burn up bandwith-and go on and on and on- to no end,or real conclusion. let us talk about "real" problems with Goldwings, repairs and such, and not the improbable ones.
[quote][/quote]


I hope you don't mind if I respectfully disagree. If there is no problem with E 10, ther are obiviously a lot of people that need to know that they are wasting their time and money removing ethanol from their gas and by ppurchasing products
that, supposedly, counteract problems that don't exist. I don't have an answer to the question and would readily accept your opinion that there is little to worry about. But, there is obviously others that have differing opinions.

User avatar
Johnyy Smoke
Posts: 600
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:44 am
Location: Se Minnesota
Motorcycle: 1980 GL1100
Vetter. "Its like Deja Vu all over again".

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby Johnyy Smoke » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:56 pm

Let us talk about real problems with Goldwings-and not the improbable ones,Regards, Johnyy

Oddbirdwithbrokewing
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:38 am
Motorcycle: 1975 gl1000
1983 gl1100A Aspencade

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby Oddbirdwithbrokewing » Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:48 pm

I believe there are many sources (including this one viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14679&p=74550&hilit=how+to+remove+ethanol#p74550 that contradict your supposition that the harmful effects of ethanol are "improbable". let's leave it open for discussion if anyone desires, if not this thread will pass of it's own accord.

User avatar
Johnyy Smoke
Posts: 600
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:44 am
Location: Se Minnesota
Motorcycle: 1980 GL1100
Vetter. "Its like Deja Vu all over again".

Re: Countering ethanol issues

Postby Johnyy Smoke » Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:05 pm

Oddbirdwithbrokewing wrote:I believe there are many sources (including this one viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14679&p=74550&hilit=how+to+remove+ethanol#p74550 that contradict your supposition that the harmful effects of ethanol are "improbable". let's leave it open for discussion if anyone desires, if not this thread will pass of it's own accord.

I use valvoline 10w 40, Regards, Johnyy




Return to “GL1100 Information & Questions”




Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 7 guests