older goldwing timing belt info


Information and questions on GL1100 Goldwings (1980-1983)
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older goldwing timing belt info

Postby mshawnm109r » Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:11 pm



ok i dont know if this will help but i thought i would try to share!

The Timing Belt (Cam belt) Page


Every piece of machinery must be maintained, especially the Honda Goldwing considering its failure history.
Critical items to maintain are fluids, which are obvious, but as important are Timing Belts used to turn the
cam shafts in the engine.

The GL engines (1000 - 1200) use "gear belts" to allow power from the engine crankshaft to turn the two cam
shafts, one in each side of the engine. Gear belts, unlike the familiar "V-belt" and "flat belt," have teeth which make
the belt act like a combination flat belt and gear. The belt teeth cause the cams to be "synchronous" with the
engine crankshaft so the cams stay in time with the crank.

If the cams are out of time from the crankshaft, the valves in the cylinder head will hit the piston and cause severe
engine damage. This ocurrs when the cam pulley is off time by 3 teeth or more in a certain direction. Thus, a broken
cam belt that costs $10.00 U.S. can cause hundreds of dollars of damage or even destroy an engine. This makes a
case for proper maintenence and installation of cam belts.

Honda dealerships may not be properly trained in cam belt installation and maintenence. I suppose the occasional
mechanic could go "out of bounds" and study this for himself, but in my experience, Honda discourages dealers
from doing such things. At one time, a Honda dealers mechanic admitted he wasn't allowed to do a service procedure
on a customers motorcycle even though he knew it was proper, simply because dealer rules didn't allow it.

This leaves you "on your own" with belts. Consulting a repair manual may not give you the information needed.
So, Iv'e constructed this page, based on engineering data provided from the Gates Corporation, a manufacturer and
distributor of high quality Timing Belts. These Gates belts are often used as replacements on GL1100 / 1200s and
are availiable at most Auto Parts stores and at any industrial belt supply house.

Timing belts are not as simple as "go throw a set on." This invites disaster. Neither are they simple to handle
or install. Some basic information will help you install your own or at least help identify a belt in need of
replacement.

Since this website is dedicated to older Goldwings, the following blanket statement is made:

"Change both timing belts IMMEDIATELY unless you know for certain their age and mileage are
acceptable."

If you are unsure, don't even put the key in and start the engine, it could be the LAST time it runs!
The damage that can be done isn't worth the $ 20 - $30 in cost for a new set of belts.

The questions about belts are lumped in three general categories:

1.) When to change belts
2.) How to change belts
3.) Operation and storage

1.) "When?"

As before, IMMEDIATELY if it is unknown when the last change was done. A broken belt at highway speeds can
destroy an entire engine and at worst, COST YOUR LIFE in an accident when the engine locks up and rear tire skids.

DANGER -- NEVER TOUCH A RUNNING GEARBELT,
THEY CAN CATCH A FINGER AND DRAG IT INTO THE PULLEY.

NEVER PUT YOUR FACE NEAR A RUNNING GEAR BELT, NOR IN A
POSITION THAT PLACES YOUR FACE IN LINE WITH A RUNNING BELT.
BELTS CAN COME OFF WITH GREAT FORCE AND HURT YOU.

Belts must be changed as follows:

a.) if they are more than six (6) years old (based on storage life). Storing a Gear Belt at 100*F
reduces its storage life in half (3 years instead of 6).

b.) if any surface of the belt is cracked

c.) if any cords in the belt are sticking out

d.) if they are noisy

e.) if engine speed exceeds 6,000 RPM (based on speed limits for the belt, I have routinely exceeded
that speed but dont recommend it. Ive done lots of stupid things on a Goldwing I wont even begin
to tell you about.

f.) more frequently if the cycle is overheated or stored / operated in very hot or cold weather

g.) if anything falls in the belt teeth while running

Belt handling and storage are CRITICAL. Many of you are familiar with "V belts" as used on older cars,
lawnmowers etc. Forget what you know about them. Handling a Gear Belt like a V belt will destroy it.

a.) NEVER drop, twist, stretch, bend backwards, pry on a Gear Belt. Do it once, throw it away.

b.) Avoid storing Gear Belts exposed to sunlight, in wet locations, over 85*F, in airflow from
a heater, near electrical transformers or motors that generate ozone, near solvents or chemicals.

c.) NEVER bend a Gear Belt backwards (with teeth out).

d.) NEVER bend a Gear Belt to a diameter smaller than the smallest pulley (engine crankshaft pulley).

e.) NEVER use a Gear Belt that was hung on a nail or other support that places the belt weight
on a smaller diameter than the smallest pulley. This can break a cord in the belt. If the belt hange
long enough on a nail or other small diameter object, it will form to that small diameter and be
stressed when put on the engine.

f.) NEVER buy a belt that has been repackaged, they must be stored in their original box, and not bent
to a smaller diameter than the small pulley (crankshaft pulley) while stored in the box.

g.) My recommendation, never buy a belt that doesn't say "Gates" on both the belt and box.
The "off brand" stores ("NAPA" which I loathe) and the like may sell reduced quality merchandise.
It isnt worth it. They operate on the "Sears principle" - buy it with reduced quality at a cheaper price,
buy a lot of it, and make profit on it. Buy spark plugs and antifreeze at the "chain stores" but not timing
belts for Goldwings. If need be, go to an industrial belt supply house which will be familiar with proper
gear belt handling. It could save your engine.

2.) Once we've jumped through that amazing group of hoops to get a good belt, installation is not simple.

a.) NEVER, EVER, for ANY REASON pry a gearbelt onto a pulley. Not even a little! It could cost you an engine.

b.) NEVER turn a pulley to put tension on a belt. Belts are to be installed with no pulley tension.

c.) NEVER turn the engine by the cam pulley. This places all the engine torque on one cam belt.

d.) Pulleys must be clean. Rubber build up on pulleys can damage gear belts. Clean them with a cloth moistened
in carburetor cleaner. Avoid spraying carb cleaner on pulleys. Allow the pulleys to completely dry before
installing the belt or the belt could be damaged by the solvent.

e.) It is CRITICAL to be sure the cam pulleys (large pulleys) are "in time" with the crankshaft or valve damage
will occur. This is not easy as when the engine is set to TDC, the right cam will jump out of alignment when
its belt is removed, and you may not notice its happened.

f.) Ensure the belt is installed on-center both pulleys, with no belt hanging over any pulley edge.

g.) Proper installation tension is CRITICAL and difficult to set. The Factory tensioning idler system is well
designed, but there is no gurantee the tension springs, which are now about 20 years old, have the proper
tension. The spring may or may not be the proper tension, I have not verified it. Proper belt tension must
be calculated.

The belt tension required by Gates is within 0.1 pounds of force on the belt at a certain location
for a certain "belt deflection." IT IS NOT ENOUGH TO JUST PUSH THE BELT A CERTAIN DISTANCE
TO ESTABLISH TENSION, IT MUST DEFLECT A DISTANCE WITH A CALIBRATED FORCE.
DO NOT CHECK TENSION ON A GEAR BELT AS YOU WOULD A V-BELT (by "pinching" it between
two adjacent points) THIS WILL RUIN THE BELT.

f.) Once installed, I always turn the engine over by hand several revolutions then recheck alignment to
gurantee the belts have not "jumped time." Then I crank the engine over without spark plugs installed
recheck them, then run the engine a few minutes and recheck both timing and tension.


3.) Operation.

a.) The maximum operating temperature for a properly installed Gear Belt is 185* F.

b.) Gear belts are not allowed to wander off the edge of the pulley, they will be damaged.
This is caused by shafts out of alignment and is unlikely in a Goldwing engine.

c.) Avoid engine speeds over 6,000 RPM. I have operated these engines over 10,000 RPM
but its risky. The engine is not the problem, the timing belts are.

d.) Gates says "...shutdown for through inspection...may be required every three to six months."
Since timing belts on Goldwings are rather reliable, and to avoid damage, I'd go every year.

e.) Gates says "When equipment is stored for prolonged periods of time (over six months),
the belt tension should be relaxed... or (belt) removed and stored (properly)." If this is not
done, the belt may "take a set" or permanently form to the pulleys and cause short belt life.

f.) Avoid riding the motorcycle until it is up to full operating temperature, especially when air
temperature and/or engine temperature are very cold. From EXPERIENCE - if you are in such a
hurry that you cannot wait a few minutes for warm up, you should not be riding. Take this as
sound advice from a rider with over 150,000 miles on two wheels. Being in a hurry on a motorcycle
can kill you.


ABOUT EXTERNAL ALTERNATORS.

Some well meaning mechanics have devised a plan to "save you from Hondas $800 stator change"
by inventing a kit to install a car alternator onto the front of the GL engine.

An example of this is at : http://www.icss.net/~squirts/stator.htm

Looks like a good idea, eh?

I read this page and the little red warning light went off in my head. "Somethings wrong."

I then calculated the horsepower requrements for the GL1200 electrical system that sources up to 30 amp
of electrical current. Electrical power can be converted to an equivalent mechanical horsepower.

Then, the power was compared to the charts for service limits on the GL1200 cam belts provided by Gates.

The result? Depending on how much horsepower the cam takes, the addition of the alternator may
overload the cam belt and break it.

The biggest problem is that the cam horsepower is very difficult to calculate, it requires profiling the
cam lobes and valve springs and using CALCULUS to find cam horsepower. Guessing isnt good enough.
This is even beyond a mechanical designers ability. Yes, I could calculate cam horsepower to the gnats
eyebrow, but Ive better things to do with a weeks worth of work. Im spending my time correcting the
original problems with the GL charging system.

Once the cam power is calculated, it is added to the electrical horsepower and compared to the cam belt ratings.

From my estimates of cam horsepower from engine speed and belt size based on Gates engineering data,
and calculations of electrical load, the timing belt may or will be overloaded when the engine speed is low.

Notice on the web page link above, the Author and "inventor of the kit" uses OPINION, not calculations,
to "design" the system:

"The pulley used in the plans is mounted externally, as I said, and is larger in diameter to increase the
revolutions of the alternator pulley. I figure an increase of two-fold or so at the alternator pulley. While this
would be OK for a motorcycle mainly used for "around town", I think that most any 4 cylinder motorcycle
should provide enough rpm's at speed to keep the alternator at peak speed."

These statements prove that there is no engineering knowledge nor even basic electrical calculations
behind this "design." It is a wrecked engine in the works.

Also, from a quick inspection of the "plans," there is no seal installed in the cover to prevent water
from entering the cam belts, which WILL destroy them.

Yes, this conversion looks like a good idea, but it plays on fear and finance to sell itself. We notice no
statements of individuals pushing these kits to take responsibility for your destroyed engine, no warranty
no statements on how to re-tension the cam belt for the additional load (which is required!), and the link
to the "professional" installation is "404" (web page has been removed.)

The GL1200 stator is NOT that expensive nor that hard to change. It is much cheaper than a destroyed set
of valves and possibly a cracked piston.

It's admirable that well meaning mechanics intend to conquer the GL charging problems, but mechanics
are not trained sufficiently to handle ENGINEERING work. Its best left to the engineers.

There is also a possible risk in accident with that alternator hanging over the side of the engine. What happens
to the motorcycles trajectory if it goes over on the alternator side in an accident? Even I cannot answer that.
Do you want that alternator breaking off and tearing your face off in an accident? If the cycle goes down on
pavement on the alternator side and the alternator is broken off its mount, the movement of the pavement
will throw it backwards. YOU are then behind a 10 pound missile moving, at maximum, the speed of
the vehicle at the time of impact. The alternator, placed where it does not belong, will hit the pavement first
and if it breaks off, do YOU want a 10 pound weight hitting your body at upwards of 60 m.p.h.?
IT CAN KILL YOU. Is your life, or plastic surgery to reconstruct your face, worth $800?

Just for fun, I calculated the force which a 10 pound weight moving at 30 m.p.h could place on a human head
if it forces the head back 6 inches. The force is about 1,244 pounds for a deceleration of 0.011 seconds.

I consulted with an expert in the insurance industry with 40+ years who has seen all sorts of "freak" accidents.
He advises that the outboard alternator could even cause an accident when leaning the cycle hard in a turn
if it strikes the pavement, and that this could involve (legal) negligence on the part of the "inventor of the kit."

Further, if the stock cycle goes down, it will tend to slide in a straight line forward, I've ridden them down to know.
With that alternator acting as a pivot point, what happens to the cycles trajectory? Does it slide straight,
cause the cycle to pivot, or to roll over on you?

Vehicle ENGINEERS go to great trouble to design vehicles safely and one important point is to not attach
things that "poke out" from a moving vehicle. Even tires that protrude past fender wells are illegal in Ohio.
Adding an external alternator is not within the vehicles original design changes the vehicles design. Why risk it?

There are lots of half-baked "kits" and "modifications" out there to all sorts of vehicles. You new guys to
"Goldwinging" have not seen the trail of such junk thats been left behind over the years. For example, the
nice shiny chrome brake and clutch master cylinder covers that warp and let water in to ruin the master cylinders.
Or the pretty chrome engine covers that overheat the engine and accelerate stator failure. The path is littered
with dozens of guys that have attempted to put "integrated communications systems" and CBs on that ended
up in the trash. Every one that have attempted that last one besides Hondas electronic OEMs and me have
failed.

It takes serious engineering skill and a lot of testing to design modifications to vehicles. These things are NOT
within grasp of mechanics. Even I with major skill in electronics spent about 200 hours researching the Harness
before even making the first cut into the GL wiring harness. And a lot more hours than that before the first one
went on a customers Goldwing.



idjit
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Re: older goldwing timing belt info

Postby idjit » Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:30 pm

Thank you!! This is why I joined this site. So much valuable information.

BillR
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Re: older goldwing timing belt info

Postby BillR » Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:08 pm

Is there a DIY for changing the belt?

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Five
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Re: older goldwing timing belt info

Postby Five » Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:39 pm

BillR wrote:Is there a DIY for changing the belt?

http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/forum9/17422.html
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CreatorsDream
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Re: older goldwing timing belt info

Postby CreatorsDream » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:48 pm

Great info! I looked up the Gates timing belt for my '82 GL1100 Interstate and it is a T274. Actually went to http://www.woodys-auto-supply.com and they had it for $17.53. Looking for these timing belts using the Honda part number made them VERY expensive. So Kudos to you and the goldwingdocs community!

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SteveB123
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Re: older goldwing timing belt info

Postby SteveB123 » Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:28 am

My goodness there is a lot of BS in that post. Lots of dire warnings with no reasoning behind them.

Change belts if you dare to rev past 6000?
Never ride until bike if fully warmed up?

Not very credible, IMHO.
Current:82 GL1100 Interstate, 60 Amp Poorboy, MSD coil
Previous: 93 GSX1100F Katana
82 GL500 Silverwing

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dingdong
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Re: older goldwing timing belt info

Postby dingdong » Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:12 am

SteveB123 wrote:My goodness there is a lot of BS in that post. Lots of dire warnings with no reasoning behind them.

Change belts if you dare to rev past 6000?
Never ride until bike if fully warmed up?

Not very credible, IMHO.


I agree Steve.

No offense intended to you personally mshawnm109r. Wow! How do I diplomatically say most of the post is a bunch of unnecessary and arguably wrong scare tactics. Especially your must do and never do lists regarding the belts and then there are thousands of 1200 owners successfully using the external alternator (Poorboy). Where did you come up with all this "knowledge"?

Edit: I went back and reread the original post. It's even worse than I thought. Except for the recommendation to change the belts if you are unsure when they were changed it's almost all a bunch of JUNK. All of you new to GoldWings guys......Please don't take this as the gospel on wings. Do your own research.
I apologize if this offends anyone. I normally don't respond to posts such as this but this is just so wrong.
Tom

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HawkeyeGL1200
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Re: older goldwing timing belt info

Postby HawkeyeGL1200 » Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:48 pm

I'd have to change my belts at least once a week, if exceeding 6000 rpms means the belts are no good LOL.
I am wrong as often as I am right concerning what is wrong with someone else' motorcycle without having seen the machine in person. Guessing with limited information, as to the source of the trouble, is sketchy at best.

Old Fogey
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Re: older goldwing timing belt info

Postby Old Fogey » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:24 pm

A couple of things here.
I think the original post was meaning the alternator conversions that ran off a pulley mounted on the left cam, so that the one timing belt had the added stress.

Secondly, when I was looking into timing belts and suppliers for my WinGovations site, I talked with the technical guys at Quinton Hazel.
Interestingly, I was told that there were NO timing belts manufactured by anyone for the 1000/1100/1200 designed for continuous engine speeds over 6000 rpm.
Until Quinton Hazel were bought over and shut down, we sold over 500 pairs of their belts without a single problem, so maybe the techs were erring on the side of caution.
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HawkeyeGL1200
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Re: older goldwing timing belt info

Postby HawkeyeGL1200 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:25 pm

If I did the math right in my head, continuous operation @6000 RPMs, assuming high gear is used, would mean I was running down the highway (continuously) at about 120 miles per hour. I do like to go fast, but that would surely get me arrested in most every state in the US, were there a police officer anywhere near by.

I have run my engine up to 7000 rpms for short burts while accelerating through gears. I have not exceeded 100 mph on my old GL1200 yet, and probably won't any time soon.
I am wrong as often as I am right concerning what is wrong with someone else' motorcycle without having seen the machine in person. Guessing with limited information, as to the source of the trouble, is sketchy at best.

PartsMan1968
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Re: older goldwing timing belt info

Postby PartsMan1968 » Thu May 12, 2016 12:58 pm

My recommendation, never buy a belt that doesn't say "Gates" on both the belt and box.
The "off brand" stores ("NAPA" which I loathe) and the like may sell reduced quality merchandise.
It isnt worth it. They operate on the "Sears principle" - buy it with reduced quality at a cheaper price,
buy a lot of it, and make profit on it. Buy spark plugs and antifreeze at the "chain stores" but not timing
belts for Goldwings. If need be, go to an industrial belt supply house which will be familiar with proper
gear belt handling. It could save your engine.


Read more: posting.php?f=4&mode=reply&t=1512&sid=0c4145ca213af2e90ef445a6fe306738#ixzz48SuBLUMS

I happen to own a Goldwing AND work for a NAPA store. I used our NAPA Gates belts when I did my timing belts. They are made by Gates and it says so on the box and the belt. Please do not bad mouth our belts if you have no clue what you are talking about. Thank you.

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Re: older goldwing timing belt info

Postby WingAdmin » Thu May 12, 2016 3:14 pm

PartsMan1968 wrote:
My recommendation, never buy a belt that doesn't say "Gates" on both the belt and box.
The "off brand" stores ("NAPA" which I loathe) and the like may sell reduced quality merchandise.
It isnt worth it. They operate on the "Sears principle" - buy it with reduced quality at a cheaper price,
buy a lot of it, and make profit on it. Buy spark plugs and antifreeze at the "chain stores" but not timing
belts for Goldwings. If need be, go to an industrial belt supply house which will be familiar with proper
gear belt handling. It could save your engine.


Read more: posting.php?f=4&mode=reply&t=1512&sid=0c4145ca213af2e90ef445a6fe306738#ixzz48SuBLUMS

I happen to own a Goldwing AND work for a NAPA store. I used our NAPA Gates belts when I did my timing belts. They are made by Gates and it says so on the box and the belt. Please do not bad mouth our belts if you have no clue what you are talking about. Thank you.


I can echo this. NAPA filters (air and oil) consistently rate very near the top of most filter efficiency and quality tests, their hoses are top quality, and their belts (specifically the GL1500 timing belts) are made by Gates, as mentioned. I have a set of them in my GL1500. I have never been disappointed with the quality of products from NAPA.

4wred
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Re: older goldwing timing belt info

Postby 4wred » Thu May 12, 2016 5:06 pm

Wow,I'm not touching this topic with a ten foot pole :oops:

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littlebeaver
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Re: older goldwing timing belt info

Postby littlebeaver » Tue May 17, 2016 2:34 pm

I protest.... :shock: :shock: :shock: How come nobody is speaking of the two Hippo's ridin around on the motorcycle and the impact it may have on the belts, ya think perhaps it could put a strain on the belts.... :lol: I seen two over sized pizza loving people toteing a bucket of KFC the other day of on this poor little Goldwing 1100.... OMG.... The strain on those belts, and they was towing a trailer too, had one of those silly bears on the rack... :shock: :shock: :shock: :lol:




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