Checking timing with a Timing Light


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Newport
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Checking timing with a Timing Light

Postby Newport » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:20 pm



I have the Honda "window" tool that screws into the crankcase to allow checking of timing using a timing light.
What is not really clear from the Honda manual (Page 3-29) is exactly which mark should be aligned.There is a "T" under which there is either a "1" or a "2" and then under that there is a "F"
Both the "T" and the "F" have a line marked either side and central to the depth of the letter.
Although the manual states that the "F-1" and/or the "F-2" timing mark should align there is no mark that relates directly to that text which indicates that "F-1" and "F-2" are marked across the rotating assembly which of course they are not.
So is it the line beside the T (which to me would indicate timing) or the line beside the F that should be aligned?
Perthaps it is niether because what aligns on my engine is the central point of numbers "1" and "2".
Why am I even doing this you may ask? I just cannot seem to get this engine running as I would expect.
Engine has been re-built, carbs done professionally, all electrical components checked although I will be replacing the ignition leads when the length of cable ordered arrives in the next coule of days.
After that ????????????????
Never mind: IOt is all good fun!



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WINGER3
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Re: Checking timing with a Timing Light

Postby WINGER3 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:30 am

Hi Ray; sorry about the bike, yes I read my Honda book, it's not to clear. :( I have a Clymer back up book and it shows pictures of the timing mark lineing up to the center of the F only , not 1 or 2, looks like this (-F-). I have to assume that if you are lineing up on the 1 and 2 that is your problem. Clymer says then you then have a problem with one of the ignition components. Clymer also said to rev the engine just past 3000K RPM and check the timing advance, at full advance you should see a line that lines up with the timing mark, looks like this (--) no number or letter just a line.

Honda book tells you to go to chapter 15 for ignition component problems, Clymer says chapter 7 for the same when timing is off. When you get the timing fixed, then you can check for full timing advance, if not correct then go to ignition advance mechnaism section to correct. I hope this helps.

By the way, Virgil is sending me the LCD display so I can switch with the one I have and then I will ship that one back to him so he has it to help others with problems with thairs. He says he has gained a ton of info from the unit so far and should be able to help others.

Best of luck. Bob :mrgreen:
DON'T DESTROY IT-RESTORE IT

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virgilmobile
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Re: Checking timing with a Timing Light

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:02 am

When I did mine (83),I realized that the timing was perfect....well at least it fired at the "F" mark.
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8622
Where I had a problem was in the mechanical and vacuum advance system.
The "timing" is factory set and locked by the physical position of the pulse coils attached to the vacuum canister.It's threaded to the coupler shaft.
The mechanical advance parts were contaminated and were stuck..A bit of cleaning took care of that.
The vacuum advance also had 2 problems...The plate that the pulse coils mount to float on a ring of ball bearings.They too were stuck.Same procedure.
The second part was the vacuum canister had a pin hole in the diaphragm.It too needed repair.
I found all this by using a timing light and a white dot marked on the CAM wheel and casting.
I marked the casting and wheel for TDC.When idling,it did move off the mark a bit.I assume that is the preset 10* BTDC.As I increased the RPM,my timing would not change thus the repairs.
There are specific numbers in the book,I think it's something like up to 25* BTDC with the mechanical advance(vacuum line unhooked) and up to 38* when the vacuum advance is added.
The vacuum tube only has vacuum as the throttle is increased and will peak around 4-5" of vacuum at 3500 rpm.There is NO vacuum at a idle.
I was watching for the changes as I operated the throttle.
If the initial timing is off (at a idle) the only adjustment is to loosen the bolt on the vacuum canister and screw it in or out.This moves the back plate.The pulse coils are not adjustable on the backplate.
Virgil.

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virgilmobile
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Re: Checking timing with a Timing Light

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:22 am

Oh,by the way....As I recall "T" is top dead center "1" TDC for cylinder 1 . "2" for cylinder 2.
" F " is the timing "fire" mark at a idle and " -- " is the max timing marks.

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Re: Checking timing with a Timing Light

Postby Newport » Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:59 am

WINGER3 wrote:Hi Ray; sorry about the bike, yes I read my Honda book, it's not to clear. :( I have a Clymer back up book and it shows pictures of the timing mark lineing up to the center of the F only , not 1 or 2, looks like this (-F-). I have to assume that if you are lineing up on the 1 and 2 that is your problem. Clymer says then you then have a problem with one of the ignition components. Clymer also said to rev the engine just past 3000K RPM and check the timing advance, at full advance you should see a line that lines up with the timing mark, looks like this (--) no number or letter just a line.

Honda book tells you to go to chapter 15 for ignition component problems, Clymer says chapter 7 for the same when timing is off. When you get the timing fixed, then you can check for full timing advance, if not correct then go to ignition advance mechnaism section to correct. I hope this helps.

By the way, Virgil is sending me the LCD display so I can switch with the one I have and then I will ship that one back to him so he has it to help others with problems with thairs. He says he has gained a ton of info from the unit so far and should be able to help others.

Best of luck. Bob :mrgreen:


Winger 3
I fitted my plug leads today and although I have eliminated something I still have the same issue of an occasional "kickback" through the carbs.
The bike does sound as though the timing is out.
Once again I checked the belt timing.
When the crankshaft is aligned to the T the marks on cam sprockets are in the correct position:
Page 7-17 of the Honda manual states thyt the T 1 mark should be aligned.
As advised earlier the T and the 1 are not in the same plane but I doubt that aligning to the T or the 1 would make any change at the cam sprockets.
I have reviewed everything that I can on the forum that is related and not quite sure what I will attack next but it is sounding as though I need to pull the swing arm again unless someone comes up with other bright ideas. Thanks for input

Newport
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Re: Checking timing with a Timing Light

Postby Newport » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:51 am

virgilmobile wrote:When I did mine (83),I realized that the timing was perfect....well at least it fired at the "F" mark.
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8622
Where I had a problem was in the mechanical and vacuum advance system.
The "timing" is factory set and locked by the physical position of the pulse coils attached to the vacuum canister.It's threaded to the coupler shaft.
The mechanical advance parts were contaminated and were stuck..A bit of cleaning took care of that.
The vacuum advance also had 2 problems...The plate that the pulse coils mount to float on a ring of ball bearings.They too were stuck.Same procedure.
The second part was the vacuum canister had a pin hole in the diaphragm.It too needed repair.
I found all this by using a timing light and a white dot marked on the CAM wheel and casting.
I marked the casting and wheel for TDC.When idling,it did move off the mark a bit.I assume that is the preset 10* BTDC.As I increased the RPM,my timing would not change thus the repairs.
There are specific numbers in the book,I think it's something like up to 25* BTDC with the mechanical advance(vacuum line unhooked) and up to 38* when the vacuum advance is added.
The vacuum tube only has vacuum as the throttle is increased and will peak around 4-5" of vacuum at 3500 rpm.There is NO vacuum at a idle.
I was watching for the changes as I operated the throttle.
If the initial timing is off (at a idle) the only adjustment is to loosen the bolt on the vacuum canister and screw it in or out.This moves the back plate.The pulse coils are not adjustable on the backplate.
Virgil.


Virgil:
Please also refer to my reply to other posting.
This bike ran fine before I dismantled it close on 2 years ago so I cannot hep but think that I have something wrongly assembled/aligned/timed
I have removed belt covers and will make a fitting of cardbaord as you did and let you know the results.
In the meantime if you have any bright ideeas shoot them "down under".

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virgilmobile
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Re: Checking timing with a Timing Light

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:23 am

Can you describe,under what conditions,you hear the "kickback".?
While accelerating,steady cruising,a certain RPM,decelerating,etc....
Is it defiantly from the intake and not the exhaust.?
Is it predictable or random.
Can you make it 'kickback' when you want to?
How bout a U-Tube video ?????

Do the cardboard test....this quickly shows if the mechanical and vacuum advance systems are working or not.

Virgil..from "up over" :D

Newport
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Re: Checking timing with a Timing Light

Postby Newport » Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:22 pm

Virgil:
Other activities dictate that OI may not get back to this for a few days but as soon as I do you will hear from me. Thx for continued assistance.

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Re: Checking timing with a Timing Light

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:21 pm

Any time mate....glad to poke my nose into your buisness. :D
Virgil

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WINGER3
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Re: Checking timing with a Timing Light

Postby WINGER3 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:28 pm

Ray;
Hang in there, you will get to the problem, it's probably something simple, as you said, just not hooked up/connected/plugged in right, they are the hardest one's to find. With Virgil working with you on it, I'm positive the two of you will get it fixed.
Bob :mrgreen:
DON'T DESTROY IT-RESTORE IT

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RBGERSON
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Re: Checking timing with a Timing Light

Postby RBGERSON » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:47 am

HI Ray,

Just saw this and there is one thing that makes me a little nervous:

As advised earlier the T and the 1 are not in the same plane but I doubt that aligning to the T or the 1 would make any change at the cam sprockets.

This is not true having the T1 mark off a bit will change the cam timing.. One thing that could have happened is the the main crank sprocket was not set to T1..when you reinstalled the timing belts..so when you lined up the cam sprockets to their marks things aren't correct if the crank sprocket was off a bit,not much, you'll have firing/timing issues..if it was off a tooth or two ..bent valves and/or holed piston..which isn't the case. If you didn't mark the crank sprocket's position before you removed the timing belts originally and reset it to that mark when you reinstalled the belts it may have moved a bit. The only way to fix it is to remove the belts, set the fly wheel to T1 on the correct compression stroke..#1 at TDC(I think..double check the manual for that info) mark the crank sprocket's position and then reinstall the belts making sure the crank stays in position and get the cam sprockets in their correct positions.

As said above you really were meant to adjust the timing on 1100's..only make sure all the parts are working correctly in the pulser/advance mechanism ..as VM suggested.
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

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Re: Checking timing with a Timing Light

Postby littlebeaver » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:43 pm

At any point in time did you remove the pulse generator? Like when the engine was rebuilt?

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Re: Checking timing with a Timing Light

Postby Newport » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:03 pm

Reply to RBGERSON:
Roger: Thanks for comments. In regard to the T1 marking. There is no T1 marking as the Honda manual would have you believe. There is a -T- and there is a 1 but they are not combined. When I say that I doubt that it would make any difference what I am trying to say is this: If you align to the -T- then that is where I believe it should be.
However should you try to align to the 1 then you would need to move the cam wheels so far to get a tooth aligned to the belt notches and it would not be aligned to the marking on the rear of the cam wheel cover that it becomes obvious that this could not be correct whereas aligning to to the -T- provides for the cam wheels to align correctly which mine are when the crank window clearly shows alignment to the -T-.

Having read up on information included in a previous posting from VIRGILMOBILE where he made up a cardboard fitting in order tht he could check timing from a cam wheel (that reference is included in his postings on this article) I decided to do the same and this is in my opinion a great method of checking timing as it allows checking of advance which is nigh on impossible to check via the crankcase window.
I bow to the mans ingenuity which gave me readings matching what is in the manual. With 10 degrees of advance at 950 RPM and further advance readings through rev range.
Having run the engine quite a bit yesterday It seemed to settle down when it got really warm so I have put all of the plastic ware back on and will register it and go for a ride to see how it performs.
Adding to draft post a bit later on: I have reassembled and am quite proud of what is one of 7 Aspencades imported into Australia by Honda in 1983. Hopefully it will run OK.
One of the best parts of this project has been the interaction with fellow forum members who I now view as my unseen friends.
I will let everyone know how the bike goes when I get to go for a ride.
Reply to: LITTLEBEAVER: Yes every last nut and bolt got disassembled during this resto.
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Re: Checking timing with a Timing Light

Postby WINGER3 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:14 am

Ray, I have to admit you have by far the best color Honda ever put on a Goldwing :D , a very nice ride indeed. I think you are going to have a great ride and the bike will be as perfect as a 1983 model can be. Ride safe my friend and keep us posted.
Bob :mrgreen:
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Re: Checking timing with a Timing Light

Postby littlebeaver » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:10 am

Cold blooded creatures these 1100's are.. :D




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