High RPM miss during acceleration


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marcsac
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High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby marcsac » Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:41 am



83 1100 Interstate...has anyone ever experienced a high RPM miss during acceleration. It happens above 3.5 - 4K+ and only when you really rap on the throttle. The manual trouble shoot say 'faulty ignition" . Just had the carbs rebuilt by dealer and I thought it may have been a sticky slide (with the power loss)...but, dealer took the carbs off and recheck there work and showed me that the slides were operating normally.

I also checked the vacuum advance hose from #3 carb for holes or cracks....nothing! She runs great except for this issue.


Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle :)

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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby WingAdmin » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:55 am

There's usually two different causes of this sort of miss. One is fuel starvation (acceleration at high RPM takes a ton of fuel), which means I would be looking at fuel filter or pump impediment. You can usually tell that type of problem, as the engine tends to "bog down" as if it was running out of fuel. The other is a genuine miss, where you have good power for most of the piston cycles, but the odd one just doesn't ignite. In this case, your manual is correct, it's spark. There are a few things to check, and I would do so in this order:

Plugs, boots, wiresss, coils, pulse generators

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marcsac
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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby marcsac » Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:34 am

Thanks for the response WingAdmin. I think I eliminated the fuel starvation issue and it really sounds like a miss. I pull the plugs and cylinders #2 and #4 (left side?) showing black carbons deposits. #1 and # 3 plugs look great. I believe #2 and #4 are attached to the same coil. One quick question.....the manual says test coils with "coil tester" . That's a new one for me? Three spark test?

Also, I used your "How to Articles" to rebuild both master cylinders and all three calibers. I only wish I would have found Goldwing Docs before I had the fork seals and carbs rebuilt by dealer. The detail and step by step pics give me the confidence to attempt repairs that usually make me nervous when just using the manual.....THANKS!!
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle :)

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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby WingAdmin » Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:22 pm

marcsac wrote:Thanks for the response WingAdmin. I think I eliminated the fuel starvation issue and it really sounds like a miss. I pull the plugs and cylinders #2 and #4 (left side?) showing black carbons deposits. #1 and # 3 plugs look great. I believe #2 and #4 are attached to the same coil. One quick question.....the manual says test coils with "coil tester" . That's a new one for me? Three spark test?

Also, I used your "How to Articles" to rebuild both master cylinders and all three calibers. I only wish I would have found Goldwing Docs before I had the fork seals and carbs rebuilt by dealer. The detail and step by step pics give me the confidence to attempt repairs that usually make me nervous when just using the manual.....THANKS!!


Ah, ok, the carbon on the plugs tell the story.

When plugs get fouled by carbon (which is conductive), the spark takes the path of least resistance over the insulator nose to the metal shell instead of jumping across the gap. This can cause misfiring, particularly under heaven engine load/pressure.

So what causes fouling? Typically, cold cylinder temperatures. Anything below 450-475 degrees or so means the carbon deposits are not being burned off.

So what causes cold cylinder temperatures? The main culprit is an overly rich mixture. You did say that you just had the carbs rebuilt, right?

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marcsac
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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby marcsac » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:08 pm

Yep....A honda guy at the local bike shop rebuilt them a few weeks ago. I did get some advice on GoldwingDocs regarding sticking slides might be the problem as I described it as a high RPM power loss...which sounded reasonable. I took the bike back and the mechanic took the carbs back off and showed me they operated smooth as silk.

The bike does run cool when not in traffic (by that I mean at the low side of operating temp on the gauge.) Also #2 and #4 plugs were black but not LOADED with carbon
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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:55 am

This is a bit off the wall....but...
I had a 78 that had a bit of restriction in one header.The inner thermal liner was swollen almost shut.
Black plugs... Both on one side???That's both coils.Low voltage feeding the coils???...the engine may not be breathing right.
It may be worth just looking at,including valve timing and clearance.
A volt meter attached direct to the coil while running.hopefully it stays above 12 volts.

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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby marcsac » Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:58 pm

I thought that the left side #2 and #4 were connected to the same coil and conversely...#1 and #3 to the other one.?
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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:41 pm

No..as I recall,the front cylinders fire from the right coil and the rears fire from the left.
They do not fire side to side.....thus the question about the black plugs on one side...
The plugs fire at the same time(wasted spark),so I would guess that if one is firing OK the matching plug on the other side would be good too.

Poor combustion leading to a contaminated plug indicates increased fuel mixture ratio...
(not likely with your rebuilt and properly synced carbs)...or a incomplete burn duration.

Were they synced ???

Poor spark.(not the case either,it would affect the fronts or rear cylinders)...

Poor air flow..(restricted exhaust)...mouse nest in the exhaust??

Valve timing..(scavenge cycle off)..Even one tooth off on the cam....at 3 teeth off,the valve taps the piston.It will still run at 2 tooth off....
Valve adjustments...(alters the cylinder breathing)
Just more thoughts....Anybody else???

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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby marcsac » Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:07 pm

yep....carbs were synced according to honda guy. I pulled the plugs again and there is a bit more carbon on left than on the right side. Nothing to write home about. Maybe I was looking for an easy fix with a bad coil....but like you said...Both Coils...I doubt it. The tach cable just broke...Probably from taking the carbs off twice. I ordered a new one..and ordered two valve cover gaskets also, with the plan of adjusting the valves. They dont make unusual noise but the bike probably has seen an adjustment in 20+K.
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle :)

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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:04 pm

Yes they tick a little.Adjust when COLD and get them accurate.
One step at a time.By the book.
Check the cam belt marks If possible.It will run fair being one tooth off and even I did that once.

The interesting point is that one side isn't running right.Just a little off.
I may be wrong but I can't stress enough about how the engine breathes.At 3k rpm, a slight change in valve timing becomes annoying.
between the end of the exhaust stroke and the intake stroke,both valves are open just a little(scavenge cycle)If a valve is too tight,loose or not timed exactly right,it won't aspirate the cylinder properly.It leaves the cylinder either too rich or lean.

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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby marcsac » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:54 am

I discovered from the guy I bought the bike from that the timimg belts have never been replaced. It looks like I have the original 30 year old belts (with 41K on them)....and the bike sat for two years before I bought it. You had mentioned that I check the cam belts timing marks when I adjust the valves and I figure this would be a good time to replace them.

Which leads me to my question.....Where is a good place to buy timing belts and should I only use OEM. The price difference is huge!
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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby SteveB123 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:03 am

marcsac wrote:I discovered from the guy I bought the bike from that the timimg belts have never been replaced. It looks like I have the original 30 year old belts (with 41K on them)....and the bike sat for two years before I bought it. You had mentioned that I check the cam belts timing marks when I adjust the valves and I figure this would be a good time to replace them.

Which leads me to my question.....Where is a good place to buy timing belts and should I only use OEM. The price difference is huge!


Napa for belts. No need for OEM....Honda doesn't have a timing belt factory.
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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby WingAdmin » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:41 pm

SteveB123 wrote:
marcsac wrote:I discovered from the guy I bought the bike from that the timimg belts have never been replaced. It looks like I have the original 30 year old belts (with 41K on them)....and the bike sat for two years before I bought it. You had mentioned that I check the cam belts timing marks when I adjust the valves and I figure this would be a good time to replace them.

Which leads me to my question.....Where is a good place to buy timing belts and should I only use OEM. The price difference is huge!


Napa for belts. No need for OEM....Honda doesn't have a timing belt factory.


Not only that, Gates (manufacturer of NAPA belts) is also the manufacturer of OEM Honda belts. Same belts, half the price.

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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby marcsac » Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:02 am

Ok...I'm back. I replaced the timing belts and adjusted the valves. It definately runs better...more responsive, but I still got that annoying high RPM miss. So....how do you check to see if you got a bad coil(s). I check power in and it is right at 12V. Power out ???

Also...thanks to ALL you guys on this site for the help....and everyone who posts. NO WAY I get through that timing belts R and R with just the manual!!!! By reading old posts and asking questions, I knew what to expect and was ready for it......still took me all day :)

Quick history

Rebuilt carbs (Honda guy)
New fuel filter / plugs / check wires (OK)
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle :)

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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby dwight007fchr » Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:31 pm

Greetings. I have been doing quite a bit of repairs/tune-ups on my 83 1100. I just recently completed the installation of the Relay at the Regulator connection joint (as superbly detailed by Wingadmin's "How To" article). Just drove her today, and now I have a slight miss. I am thinking that the miss is a result of an old and failing battery, which may not be supplying the amps needed by the coils to give a good spark.

I had charged the battery two weeks ago, and she was up around 12.2 volts at that time. Before going on a test drive today I checked the battery and she was just under 12 volts, and she was not willing to fire-up when I tried cranking the starter, and the battery quickly lost power to where the starter would not roll over. So, I gave her a jump with an extra deep cycle that I have laying around, and she fired-up with great authority. I immediately took the jumper cables off and let her warm up for a couple minutes at around 1750 rpms, and then took her for the test drive. In my case, the miss seems to be more in the lower RPM range of 1500-2500 RPMs. I drove her for a good 15 minutes thinking that it could be some bad gas in the carbs (although she has been sitting over the winter with fresh NonEthanol and a dose of SeaFoam in the tank, so I would think the gas was in good shape). When putting the pedal to tha medal, the Wing seemed to lunge with decent authority and power.....so, I did not notice the miss when I spurred her pretty hard.......but only in the mid range RPMs.

So, my question is: Can a weakened battery cause the coils to produce less-than-sufficient spark to the plugs?

Another bit of evidence: When getting back from the 15 minute drive, I checked the battery and she was reading about 12.6 volts. Should the battery have reached a higher voltage after a decent drive?

Many thanks.
dwight
Virginia

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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby SteveB123 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:48 am

dwight007fchr wrote:So, my question is: Can a weakened battery cause the coils to produce less-than-sufficient spark to the plugs?


Yes, during cranking.
What is the voltage across the battery when the bike is running?
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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby virgilmobile » Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:58 am

At the battery and at the coil.A voltage drop in the kill switch or any connections can reduce the voltage avaiable on the coils during a increased load.

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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby dwight007fchr » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:28 pm

Thanks Virgil..........I will need to do further investigating.......just want to get her purring like a kitten again.

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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby SteveB123 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:20 am

Are the wires and caps in good shape?
Low voltage into the coil will give low voltage out of the coil, however; bad wires or caps will bugger up any voltage out.

Wires and caps are cheap and easy enough. If yours have been firing since the Reagans first term...they deserve a rest!
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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby dwight007fchr » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:40 am

SteveB......Very funny friend. I believe the plug wires came off an old Wing manufactured during the Carter years, and remembering those years of "Billy Beer", they are surely second-rate. Ha ha, heeee-hawww. My bet is still that the battery is going bad after being boiled-over many times (3 times I have found her just over 1/2 full of electrolite). I fixed the overcharging issue thanks to the brilliant directions of Virgil and Wingadmin, but think the battery is ready to be put aside along with the Billy Beers.

dwight

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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby marcsac » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:16 am

OK Virgil..it looks like I have narrowed down the annoying high RPM miss to fuel stavation. When running down the highway (tach at 3.5 - 4.0K) and I rapped on the throttle and tried feathering the choke just a bit to see if it is fuel starv ation or I just didn't find the ignition problem yet. When I did this..... the miss smoothed right out and bike jumped to life almost tossing me off the back!

So the manual says under......under the Fuel Section Trouble Shooting guide "Miss During Acceleration"
1 Ignition malfuntion
2 Faulty Air Cutoff valve(s) or Accelerater Pump(s)

Any thoughts or advice you can give me??
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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby SteveB123 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:31 am

When I rebuilt my carbs this winter, all four air cut off valves were physically ok, but VERY stiff to move the centre brass piece (the part that actually cuts off the air) in the carb body.
Grunged up air passages.

My WaterPik got a workout cleaning out all the accelerator pump passages, too!....and the adjustment needs to be correct.
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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby dwight007fchr » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:14 am

Marc..........I tried the same thing last weekend.....while cruising along I slowly began choking her (not the gal on the back) as I was going about 40mph and with a bit of miss going on (again, not the "Miss"), but the choking had no affect at all. For a minute I was thinking that maybe the choke cable was not hooked up, but when I got back I checked and she was working fine......easy to see at idle speed. So, by increasing the mixture to very rich as driving, it seemed to have no affect.

So in my case, I am still leaning toward a worn-out battery........and not the worn-out "Miss" who I was choking. Ha ha.

dwight

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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:43 am

Ok,iffin you really want to know,I did mod mine a little.
It was a step,test,step method.The process took 3 months of tinkering to resolve the carb problems.
It took so long because,just like your bike,it also could have been anything causing it.
Now beware.....what I did to my carbs may not fix yours....You sound like you have a slightly different symptom...The higher rpm..mine was affected a bit lower....Use your best judgment when you work on it....Attack the area that is affected...the fuel circuit at 4k rpm.
Look at the air cutoff valve.There is a "by the book "test for it.
here a link for more info...http://www.saber-cycle.com/blog/2010/01 ... erformance

And mine...viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9179

It's gonna be a trial and error.Make your determinations on the fly as you dismiss each problem area.
At 4 k rpm the slow jet,mid range ports(4 in each carb) ,slide height,and main jet all come into play.Don't dismiss the slow jet...like mine,if they are restricted a bit,it will affect the total fuel flow as it's added to the main jet flow.

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Re: High RPM miss during acceleration

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:54 am

dwight007fchr wrote: So, by increasing the mixture to very rich as driving, it seemed to have no affect.

So in my case, I am still leaning toward a worn-out battery........and not the worn-out "Miss" who I was choking. Ha ha.

dwight


Before you just replace the battery,you could verify the voltage available on the coils.
Attach a DVM to the frame and the wire feeding the coils.Tape it to the shelter and drive it.Look at the coil volts when it's acting up.
Does it reflect the same voltage as the Battery volts?Or at least close......I'm guessing the coil volts should be between 13.5 and 14.2 volts at 3k rpm.
There's a lot of wire,connectors and 2 switches between the battery and the ignition coils that could cause a voltage drop too.

As a point of interest,my 1500 had only 9.8 volts on the coils while cranking....I modified the circuit the same way as we do with the regulator circuits by adding a relay.Now I have full battery volts 100% of the time right on the coils.It did help.




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