GL-1100 Water pump replacement -- Sort of


Information and questions on GL1100 Goldwings (1980-1983)
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hrobinson
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Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:23 am
Location: Riverside, California
Motorcycle: 1982 Gl1100

GL-1100 Water pump replacement -- Sort of

Postby hrobinson » Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:43 pm



Hi everyone

I have embarked on sort of replacing my water pump project.

Well the water pump is not at fault Its working quite well, rather the directions in the service manual are not complete. Not having the claymer manuals, I missed some steps which has caused me some headaches. Mainly its leaking around the front cover gasket (on the bottom). After I replaced the water pump shifting became difficult.

Oh yea Pictures are on the way. I just gotta start posting them.

My main goal is to stop the oil leak from the front cover, and replace the oil seal on the water pump shaft because THAT was never specified in the directions so that was missed.

I also suspect that the Gasket Kit I bought was incomplete .. and the gaskets were of inferior quality. I suspect this because the gasket I used looks to be a little too thin which might be causing my shifting problems.

I bought the kit that was recommended by WingAdmin Directly from the store he recommended. So I will see. I do have a spare OEM honda gasket on hand (just found it) so I will compare the two to see if the OEM gasket is thicker, and if it is, I will use that instead.

Ok, I have a series of pictures I will be uploading to ImageShack shortly so all can see my progress. Stay tuned :-)

-- Harold



hrobinson
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Re: GL-1100 Water pump replacement -- Sort of

Postby hrobinson » Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:18 pm

This is the Kit i purchased:


This is a pic of the instructions I made from WingAdmin's How to. This was the word document I posted about last week.


and off come the trunk, seat and false tank You can't see that in this picture but trust me, they are off.


Now I have drained the Oil, and Coolant. Um ... not at the same time but you get the idea.


This is the reason I have to redo the seals on this bike:



What is that you ask? that is oil on the bottom of the coolant tank. Ouch.

Good news is the coolant (which was just plain distilled water) did not have a significant amount of oil in it. It did have some oil as the water came out cloudy white but to me it did not look serious. I did have seaping of oil on the bottom of the engine between the front cover and the gasket. I can also see oil seepage from the valve cover gaskets. which were brand new just a year ago. It seems that the coolant tank acted as a oil separator. Keeping the oil in the coolant tank and allowing the water to flow back into the system.

I will be posting more as I progress through the project.

-- Harold

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Johnyy Smoke
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Re: GL-1100 Water pump replacement -- Sort of

Postby Johnyy Smoke » Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:19 pm

Might be a head gasket getting ready to blow?regards, Johnyy

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Johnyy Smoke
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Re: GL-1100 Water pump replacement -- Sort of

Postby Johnyy Smoke » Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:23 pm

So-you have 3 oem gaskets kits-and you are having problems with all of them? Perchance it is not the gaskets-but not enough research? Regards, Johnyy

hrobinson
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Re: GL-1100 Water pump replacement -- Sort of

Postby hrobinson » Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:30 pm

Johnyy Smoke wrote:So-you have 3 oem gaskets kits-and you are having problems with all of them? Perchance it is not the gaskets-but not enough research? Regards, Johnyy


I have reviewed my posts where did you get I had 3 OEM gasket kits and I had problems with all of them? As for the research, I had the service manual, I figured that was enough. It has been my "bible" when working on the bike ever since I owned the back back in 1998, and has never failed me. This was before I discovered this site, and the fantastic documentation it has.

Johnyy Smoke wrote:Might be a head gasket getting ready to blow?regards, Johnyy


You could be correct except ... a year ago I rebuilt the heads and replaced the Head Gaskets when I re-installed the heads so I don't think I have bad head gaskets. At least I hope not. The engine has not overheated since I put it back in operation, that would cause the gaskets to fail. The heads were installed with the guidance of a Honda mechanic who is a friend of mine. We both followed the service manual instructions when installing the heads.

As I work on editing this post, I have come to realize that I don't think I have anyone to blame but myself for this problem. Unfortunately I am really beginning to suspect as I had all along that I did not put the front cover gasket on the bike when I put it together. When I did the heads I purchased a top end gasket kit from Canada. Which was suppose to have everything I need to put the bike together on the top end. Since I don't throw anything away, (except used gaskets) I was examining the kit this evening, I had bought last year for the water pump project. I wanted to take pictures of the kit for the forum. This is the kit I used last year to put the bike back together when i replaced the water pump.

Inside that kit I saw a gasket I recognized. Sure enough it was the Front cover gasket. I have no Idea why I thought I did not need that gasket. Tomorrow I will see when I take the front cover off. I am really shaking my head on this one. I just don't know what to say right now.

Well for what its worth, here is the gasket :evil:


I guess I can't blame the gasket if I don't use it. :oops:

This is the gasket kit I ordered. It did not contain the oil seal for the water pump shaft nor any of the o-rings required to complete the water pump installation. but it contained every other gasket I could ask for.



Notice it says "Complete Kit" so I thought I had everything. The kit was made in Italy

Here is the company.



More to come!
-- Harold

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RBGERSON
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had every year from 75 to 83

Re: GL-1100 Water pump replacement -- Sort of

Postby RBGERSON » Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:20 am

I suspect head not re-torqued after the first 100 miles??? Also different torque values if you use lube or not on the head bolts. If so head gaskets leak a little. heads not flat?? If you did not use OEM head gaskets that could be youir problem too.. Oil getting into the system from the water pump is not likely..it drips out the weep hole first unless it's blocked and even then it's not likely to get back up into the water system. Leak oil from the front cover could be any of the oil ports in there and there are several. Maybe an o ring slipped out of place?? Or a dowel fell out and was not re-installed.

Possible oil/water leaks at pump..
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HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

FAIR WINDS,
RB

hrobinson
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Re: GL-1100 Water pump replacement -- Sort of

Postby hrobinson » Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:49 pm

RBGERSON wrote:I suspect head not re-torqued after the first 100 miles???


You have some good points. I really don't remember if I re-torqued or not You might translate that to no I did not.

RBGERSON wrote:Also different torque values if you use lube or not on the head bolts. If so head gaskets leak a little.


I did not use lube on the head bolts.

RBGERSON wrote:heads not flat??


Heads were flat, I sent the heads out to a machine shop just for that purpose. Also replaced valves they were pitted beyond repair, springs because it was already apart. The cams because they were pitted and the coating was flaking off.

RBGERSON wrote: If you did not use OEM head gaskets that could be youir problem too..


I am not going to say for certain, with stuff like head gaskets, I tend to purchase OEM. I know in my previous posts I wrote that I had purchased a complete top end gasket kit. I will have to look at the heads to see if I see green gasket material between the head and engine case. If that's the case, I did use the head gaskets out of that kit that I have already posted about.

RBGERSON wrote: Oil getting into the system from the water pump is not likely..it drips out the weep hole first unless it's blocked and even then it's not likely to get back up into the water system.


Yes I would agree, but if the oil seal on the water pump shaft was worn out then wouldn't it leak into the water? The oil begin denser than water and under higher pressure. Also this problem with the oil in the reserve tank was a problem when I took the heads off for repair last year. So then you would be telling me that I had defective head gaskets when I put the heads back on. How likely and common is that I wonder?

RBGERSON wrote:Leak oil from the front cover could be any of the oil ports in there and there are several. Maybe an o ring slipped out of place?? Or a dowel fell out and was not re-installed.

Possible oil/water leaks at pump..


Yes I would agree with all of that statement. When I did replace the water pump (done when I did the heads) I noticed that the pump had metal vanes, not the plastic ones noted in the document. Also I did not know to check for all the O rings and other little details when I put it back together. Who knows I might have had a bad case of HUA and thought I could get away with short cuts and experience is now teaching me to go carefully and methodically.

I did not work on the bike today as it is Easter, but I will start tomorrow, and get to the bottom of this issue some how.

Thanks for the comments and guidance, it is really appreciated.

-- Harold

doctorpaul
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Re: GL-1100 Water pump replacement -- Sort of

Postby doctorpaul » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:07 am

Motor oil is lighter than water ... always. A small amount of oil would emulsify temporarily in the cooling system but after sitting a bit it would be floating atop the coolant in your reservoir.
Dr. Paul
1980 Honda GL1100I
NE Oklahoma

hrobinson
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Re: GL-1100 Water pump replacement -- Sort of

Postby hrobinson » Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:42 pm

I now have the front cover off.

I did have a gasket installed after all.



Comparing the two gaskets, one posted earlier to this one. The gasket removed to feel thinner. Almost like paper. I can tell you its thicker than paper, but not by much, maybe double thickness. I am certaion this is a NON-OEM gasket but from what manufacturer I don't know. The Athena gasket which you saw earlier in this thread, I compared it with the OEM gasket I do have still in the package, appears exactly the same as the OEM gasket in terms of holes, and the positioning of them. It feels thicker than the one that I removed. I might use the Athena gasket as the package is already open, and I have read that Athena gaskets are suppose to be good quality according to one thread in this forum in particular.

This would explain why my shifter was binding, the above gasket is be too thin for this application. I did check the shifter after the cover was off, and its free and moves easily now.

-- Harold

hrobinson
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Re: GL-1100 Water pump replacement -- Sort of

Postby hrobinson » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:11 am

I have started putting the front cover back on.

Ran into a problem between the directions and my bike.

My bike is a Gl1100 Not an Interstate, not an Aspencade.
The Aspencade that was used for the documentation is actually a GL1100-A engine.

Some changes were made between the GL1100 and the GL1100-A. It seems the length and of the bolts.

So for those using the water pump replacement documentation and you are using Step 067 to put the bike back together and you have a GL1100 here are where you put the bolts as per the picture in step 067 for a GL-1100.

01. 1-5/8
02. 3-3/8
03. 1-5/8
04. 2-3/8
05. 2-7/8
06. 3-3/8
07. 1-5/8
08. 1-5/8
09. 2-3/8
10. 1-1/6
11. 2-3/8
12. 2-3/8
13. 1-1/6

Looking at the documentation, it seems the numbers in the Step 67 and my numbers are very similar. And it looks like if you follow the documentation you will not have a problem. I posted this for the sake of being complete. The numbers stated above were as I measured them on my tape measure. My tape measure marked off 1/8 inch increments on the bottom, so it made it easier to measure. I am not sure how WingAdmin made his measurements on the bolts, but I made my measurements from the top of the hex to the last thread on the bolt, and maybe that is the difference I am observing. In any case, I put my findings here just in case Honda did make a change and made the bolts shorter on the GL1100-A

-- Harold

indianakid
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Re: GL-1100 Water pump replacement -- Sort of

Postby indianakid » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:19 am

hi Harold,

hope you get your bike back on the road soon.

just an FYI bolts are measured from under the head. if it was a flush head (ie counter sunk) it would be from the top of the head.
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hrobinson
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Re: GL-1100 Water pump replacement -- Sort of

Postby hrobinson » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:33 pm

@indianakid

Thanks for the tip. I actually started doing that and thought, most everyone will probably measure from the top of the hex to the bottom of the bolt. It was easier that way.

I have not torqued down the cover yet, it got too late to work on the bike as well as a little cold. I will finish up on Wednesday for sure. I have had a lot of oil in the radiator. My thought was to plug up both ends with rags pour boiling water in the radiator to loosen up oil stuck in there then drain it out. Maybe the best way would be to use muriatic acid, since I live in an apartment, getting rid of toxic chemicals can be a pain.

I am still following WingAdmin's directions so that also includes running the bike on distilled water for a bit which I will also do.

--Harold

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Re: GL-1100 Water pump replacement -- Sort of

Postby WingAdmin » Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:16 am

Don't run the bike on distilled water for more than a few minutes, just for a flush!!

The clearance inside the front engine cover between the shifter mechanism and the inside of the cover is extremely tight. If the gasket you use is aftermarket and too thin (and by too thin, even a few thousandths of an inch is too thin), you will have trouble shifting. Being that you say the gasket you took out seemed thinner, I suspect this is your problem there.

hrobinson
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Re: GL-1100 Water pump replacement -- Sort of

Postby hrobinson » Tue May 21, 2013 6:07 pm

All,

I am still getting oil in the coolant reservoir. I did re-torque the head bolts. Yes they were loose. These are brand new head gaskets, so I don't see how these gaskets would be bad. I did open the radiator cape and look inside, and I don't see oil in the radiator. Even after it sat for a couple of days.

My symptoms are that I will see after 250 miles or so a small collection of oil inside the reservoir on the surface of the coolant which amounts to about an ounce or two. I know this because if I remove the reservoir and run the coolent through a coffee filter, the amount of oil is at most a tablespoons worth. It's always present and I was having this problem before I took the heads in to the shop for rebuilding.

I followed the directions in water pump replacement document carefully. After I carelessly allowed the neutral wire to fall between the block and the cover, I double checked my work before putting on the new gasket (good thing I did too). Found a missing o-ring, found it lying on the floor, checked again to make sure all seals were in place, then put it together.

Again, still oil in the coolant reservoir. For now I am living with it but looking for suggestions.

Now its on to rebuilding the carbs!

-- Harold




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