stumped


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seldonca
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1984 Magna V30

stumped

Postby seldonca » Fri May 24, 2013 9:42 am



I've replaced the timing belts and the carbs on my GL1100. I'm getting spark to the number 2 and 4 cylinders and I'm getting gas to them because the plugs are wet when I pull them out to check them but it doesn't seem to be firing on that side. The exhaust isn't hot like the other side and the headers aren't hot on that side. Is it possible the valves are so far out of adjustment that its not getting enough compression on that side to fire properly? There is lots of exhaust being pushed out the tail pipe on that side. I haven't adjusted the valves yet but when I did the belts they were off by 1 and a half to two teeth on both sides. They're right on now. If you go here you can see what its doing, http://s940.photobucket.com/user/seldon ... 4.mp4.html

.



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virgilmobile
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Re: stumped

Postby virgilmobile » Fri May 24, 2013 10:27 am

Cool...a problem to solve....
Here's the basics....To fire a cylinder,3 things need to happen...
Spark at the right time....Have the wires been reversed???

Compression....At least 100 psi is needed to fire a cylinder...These bikes will run with as low as 125 psi...Usually I see them above 145 psi.

The right mixture of fuel...If the floats on the left side were installed upside down..(yes it happen to me)..those 2 cylinders will flood with gas and never fire...

At this point,testing can be easy...
Dry the plugs...while there out,stick your finger onto the plug hole and bump the starter...It should easily blow past your finger pressure...Not an exact measurement but without a pressure gauge,you can at least compare it to a cylinder that is running.
Verify the plug wiring as shown above.You don't have a spark problem as the other 2 cylinders fire and they come off different coils,but they could be in the wrong hole.
When you identify if anything is a problem,fix it and try again...
Valve adjustments are a good thing....Poorly adjusted valves can lead to low compression or a non firing cylinder....especially if they don't close.
You don't appear to have a timing belt alignment problem....1-2 teeth off and one cylinder on that side would still fire,3 teeth off and a valve gets bent leading to no compression on one cylinder.

So the first thing is spark and check the compression....then onto the carbs.

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seldonca
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Re: stumped

Postby seldonca » Fri May 24, 2013 10:36 am

I've triple checked the wiring and the wires are all going to the right places. I've opened up the float bowls and the floats all look good, they're on the right way and they're not stuck or sticking. I pulled out the jet in the middle of the float chamber on all the carbs, I'm not sure which jet that is, and they were spotless. They looked brand new. I don't have a compression tester but I'll try the finger trick. I'll adjust the valves before I do that tho.

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virgilmobile
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Re: stumped

Postby virgilmobile » Fri May 24, 2013 11:35 am

Check the compression before you adjust the valves.
That way you can confirm the problem.
Everything else about the spark and carbs sound OK.
After you adjust the valves,do turn the engine over by hand.Just to be sure they don't hit a piston.
I turn mine by the bolt on the back end of the bike,under the cover at the stator case.

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seldonca
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Re: stumped

Postby seldonca » Tue May 28, 2013 9:22 am

Just an update to the problem, I adjusted the valves and managed to get the number 2 cylinder firing a bit, number 4 was still buggered. I managed to get a hold of a compression tester yesterday finally and did a check. 1 and 3 are 160 to 170 lbs, 2 and 4 are at 100 to 110 lbs. Sorry I can't be more exact but all I could manage to borrow was a tester with a rubber end on it, not a screw in one. I'm thinking the head will have to come off to see whats wrong with it. Another learning experience for me. :)

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virgilmobile
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Re: stumped

Postby virgilmobile » Tue May 28, 2013 9:34 am

Low compression can be attributed to just a few things....
Worn out engine....Not in your case...the other 2 are fine..
Valves out of adjustment.....Not that either....you just did them....
Leaking valves....possible.....
Timing belt a couple of teeth off......possible...
3 teeth off and the valve gets bent...just a little....possible....
Double check the timing marks on that side against the "T1" mark in the flywheel inspection hole.
I have rigged up a compressor to a threaded fitting,put the cylinder at the bottom,(both valves closed) and pressurized to 90 psi...With a hose in my ear,like a stethoscope,I could hear the air leaking back into the carbs....One valve was bent...

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seldonca
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Re: stumped

Postby seldonca » Tue May 28, 2013 9:52 am

I don't have a compressor and I don't think the wife would be thrilled with me buying one right now. I've checked the timing marks a few times now, I attached pictures, and they're as close as I can get them. I did recheck the timing marks on the crank as well, it was right on T1 when I took the pictures. The top picture is the left side.
Attachments

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virgilmobile
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Re: stumped

Postby virgilmobile » Tue May 28, 2013 10:23 am

It's hard to identify at this point why the compression is so low....I'm leaning to bent/burnt valves...
!00 PSI will have a very hard time firing.
This really isn't a good way...but bear with me...This is an alternative leak down test and can check the intake valves only....
Remove the down tubes from the carb on the bad side to expose the intake valves....
Kill the spark with the kill switch...
Leave the spark plugs in...
Spray a little ..Just a little...WD40 on each valve...
Crank the engine....If the valve is leaking,it will blow some of the WD40 out of the intake hole.

Another way..
Remove both spark plugs and bring one cylinder to TDC and add enough (fluid,gas,SeaFoam,cleaner) to cover the valve and see if it stays there..or seeps into the cylinder....

Or just remove the head and inspect.....

Either way...your trying to find out why the compression is low on 2 matching cylinders....
They really need to be above 135 psi to fire well...and should be within 5 psi of any other cylinder,measured wide open throttle and a 4 -5 second crank per test.

dwight007fchr
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Re: stumped

Postby dwight007fchr » Tue May 28, 2013 8:49 pm

Seldonca........My first thought is that the timing belts were actually right before you changed them by moving about 2 teeth over. Did you get a chance to follow the detailed instructions/pics on how to properly replace the timing belt? I assume the Wing running before you replaced the timing belt......so I am thinking that the most logical answer is that the belt is not on exactly right, and those cylinders are getting low compression because the valves are not in the proper position.

I just did a compression test on my 83 1100, and I first used the rubber boot compression tester, and was pushing hard as heck on the compression tester, but only getting about 75 lbs from each cylinder. I screwed in a real compression tester, and got 165-170 in all cylinders. Could be that the boot tester is not sealing as good on one side.

Im thinking that there should be a way to take all the plugs out and get the piston of each cylinder in the TopDeadCenter spot (just by looking thru the plug hole and watching the piston come to the top. At that position (if its the firing stroke) the valves should be shut, and you should get a valve clearance using the feeler gauge. If you find that the valve clearance is occurring at some other point in the piston stroke, then maybe this is a sign that the timing belt position is off. (But I may be wrong, so be sure to get feedback from the other Wing experts here).

Keep us posted.....im learning.
dwight.

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seldonca
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Re: stumped

Postby seldonca » Tue May 28, 2013 9:55 pm

Dwight, I followed the instructions here, http://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3544 , when I changed the the belts and the instructions here, viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2229 ,to adjust the valves. I'm going to try and buy a good compression tester this weekend. It ran before but not well, it does run better now than it did before but the smoke coming out of the pipes on the left side gives me some serious concerns as does the not firing properly. I've taken it apart 3 times to verify that the belts are set up correctly and I can't see how I could get it any closer than it is now. Both pulleys are in the up position, the marks are right on for the pulleys and I checked that I was on the T1 mark on the crank. Once I have the chance to check the compression with a better tester I'll be able to make a better decision where to go next. My real name is Mike btw, seldonca is just what I use on the web. I think that the ideas virgilmobile gave me to at least check the intakes are worth a try and I'll look at doing them after I get a better compression test. Thanks for the ideas, I'll give it a try when I have a chance.

dwight007fchr
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Re: stumped

Postby dwight007fchr » Wed May 29, 2013 6:43 am

10-4 Mike. Smoking out the left side......I read on one of these threads that if you park using the kick-stand instead of the center stand, then there is a chance that more oil will leak past the valve guides and into the left piston chambers....causing the smoking for the first couple minutes.

Let us know what you discover as you proceed.
dwight

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seldonca
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Re: stumped

Postby seldonca » Wed May 29, 2013 8:32 am

The bikes been on the center stand the whole time I've been working on it and when I picked it up from the PO it had been stored on the center stand.

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virgilmobile
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Re: stumped

Postby virgilmobile » Wed May 29, 2013 9:26 am

I just had another thought too.
I remember working on a 83 gl1100.I tore the engine down for parts as I purchased it cheap without a title as a parts bike.
When I disassembled the heads...guess what...
I found both intake valves had broken inner springs.
Yes they do have 2 per valve on the 1100,and I didn't notice thi inside ones being broken.
It might be something to look at on yours as it never did run well.
A broken spring 'could' lead to poor compression.
Just a thought before you rip the heads off.The springs could be replaced without pulling the head.
It's the string in the jug trick.

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seldonca
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Re: stumped

Postby seldonca » Thu May 30, 2013 8:43 am

I'll take a closer look at the springs this weekend when I'm working on it. Thanks for the heads up. Is it easy to see if they're broken or do you have to pull the springs off to see it?

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virgilmobile
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Re: stumped

Postby virgilmobile » Thu May 30, 2013 9:38 am

I have no idea....I didn't look for a broken spring when I disassembled the engine...I only saw it after I removed the rocker and the valve spring keepers.
You might be able to get a small screwdriver past the outer spring and push on the inner one to see if it's loose....

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patbrandon1
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Re: stumped

Postby patbrandon1 » Fri May 31, 2013 11:08 pm

Just one quick suggestion seldonca. Always shut off the fuel petcock after every ride, even if the bike is on the center stand.

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seldonca
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Re: stumped

Postby seldonca » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:37 pm

Just posting an update, I bought a proper compression tester today and rechecked the compression. The problem is definitely in the the number four cylinder, it was down at 120 pounds. The rest were at between 160 and 170. I'm thinking my next step is to pull the head to see whats going on. I've been looking for gasket kits and found some athena kits but I'm not sure about the quality. Has anyone used these gaskets?

dwight007fchr
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Re: stumped

Postby dwight007fchr » Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:27 am

You sure the valves are set right on #4?

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seldonca
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Re: stumped

Postby seldonca » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:33 am

I just did them, but I could check again. It can't hurt.

dwight007fchr
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Re: stumped

Postby dwight007fchr » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:34 pm

Yea....never hurts to double check. The last time I did the valves, I almost made a huge mistake........the darn feeler gauge had two (maybe 3?) stuck together, and instead of setting at say .004, I was setting at 2-3 times that thickness. Gotta really inspect the guage so you dont have a couple stuck together.

Good luck.

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seldonca
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Re: stumped

Postby seldonca » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:44 pm

I rechecked the valves, they're correct. I'm using the feeler gauge that came with the bike, it only has three blades. One for the intake, one for the exhaust and one for the plugs

dwight007fchr
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Re: stumped

Postby dwight007fchr » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:03 pm

Im thinking something is causing one of the valves to stick or not to close flush......maybe the exhaust valve and carbon?

Seems there should be another test to do prior to pulling the head off.

Having only 3 feeler gauges in your hand makes the mistake of sticking a couple together less likely.

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seldonca
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Re: stumped

Postby seldonca » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:28 am

I can't think of anything else I could do before pulling the heads. I think I'll get a start on it today. This should be interesting.

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SteveB123
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Re: stumped

Postby SteveB123 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:32 am

I bought an Athena set for when I did my heads.
Worked fine.
Current:82 GL1100 Interstate, 60 Amp Poorboy, MSD coil
Previous: 93 GSX1100F Katana
82 GL500 Silverwing

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seldonca
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Re: stumped

Postby seldonca » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:38 am

I had sent an email to the supplier about the Athena kit to ask what was in it because the description is very sketchy. This is their reply, Sorry, we do not have a contents list. All the engine gaskets should be included. No oil seals. I'm not a mechanic so I'm not sure what that means. Can anyone clue me in?




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