GL11000 Blue smoke


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moffat
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GL11000 Blue smoke

Postby moffat » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:59 am



OK here is an odd one. I have overhauled thoroughly my GL1100 engine as it was burning oil from the left hand bank of cylinders. The engine has had new liners in the left hand bores as they where damaged , new piston rings carefully gapped and fitted with ring gaps not aligned up. new valve guides and seals etc etc.
It still burns oli after 600 miles of running and seems to happen after about 10 seconds after start up start up when it blows blue smoke excessively. I do not mean the usual puff of smoke on start up I mean a lot. I can run it smoking until it warms up then shut it down and it restarts with no smoke?
I have even run it with the valve cover removed to rule out oil sucking into the combustion chamber through the seals guides ( which are new anyway) and am baffled.
I use the standard oil as recommended and have even tried different oil grades to no effect. The compression pressures are excellent at 175 PSI on all cylinders and there is no mechanical noise from the engine.
I have run the engine on 3 cylinder by removing the spark plug high tension cable on number 4 cylinder which vastly reduced the smoke to minimum and the smoke come s back after reconnection and running on a 4 cylinder so it appears to be the number 4 cylinder.
I have had the head off again and checked the bores in case a ring was broken and damaged the bores but they are fine.
The co2 levels in the right hand bank are 1.8 and the left hand smoky bank are 2.8 if that's a help.
Before I strip it down again does anyone have any experience with this problem? Could it be there is a cracked oil way leaking into the combustion chamber that seals off when warm for example- and if so where could this be?



Oddbirdwithbrokewing
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Re: GL11000 Blue smoke

Postby Oddbirdwithbrokewing » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:47 pm

Non seated head gasket?...IE. a warped head? Or, too simple, possibly too much oil in crankcase and an oil seal ring that hasn't properly set yet?

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moffat
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Re: GL11000 Blue smoke

Postby moffat » Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:15 am

Oil level is ok I have even drained some off to see if it makes any difference. The head and new gasket where carefully torqued up after new guides and seals and as there is no coolant loss or exhaust gas blowing out of the gasket I think the head is not warped?
I wonder if I take the head off again and have it crack tested in case the oil feed to the rockers is escaping into the combustion chamber. The oil feed to rockers restrictor between the head and the cylinder block and its oil seals are new so I doubt there is any problem there. I will also remove the oil strainer in the sump and see if there is any metallic bits from say a broken oil control ring?
I will also apply an air pressure to the cylinder via the spark plug hole and see if there is any leak past the number 4 piston
Assistance appreciated

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moffat
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Re: GL11000 Blue smoke

Postby moffat » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:12 pm

Ok I have applied air pressure to all 4 cylinders one at a time and the pressure remains at 8 bar which is the maximum my compressor can attain for several minutes very slowly dropping to about 5 bar over a 30 minute period. I think that this is OK. I have slackened off the valve adjuster to ensure the valves are seating on the cylinder head and all I can hear is a slight leak past the piston rings over a while which is normal I understand. After this test the bike does not smoke at all straight away but if I leave it for a couple of days it smokes after 10 seconds after start up on the left hand bank and if I shut the engine down after a minute or so and leave it for 5 minutes before starting again there is no smoke.
There is no swarfe in the engine oil or the gauze strainer and the engine breather has been disconnected from the carburettors.
All compressions figures are as per the book and I have even tried running the bike for a short while with the left hand rocker box removed to test if the valve guides seals are leaking even though they are all new to no avail.
Do you think I should overhaul the carbs just in case no 4 cylinder is getting neat fuel in it and diluting the lubrication oil in the cylinder?

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moffat
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Re: GL11000 Blue smoke

Postby moffat » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:34 am

OK the silence is deafening!! When the bad weather comes again I plan to remove the engine and strip it down again and look for problems. I wonder if the Oil control ring on number 4 cylinder is faulty somehow.
Will keep the forum posted!

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moffat
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Re: GL11000 Blue smoke

Postby moffat » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:07 am

OK I decoded to have another go at this problem with number 4 cylinder burning oil and stripped the engine down again! The bike gas covered 650 miles since the last strip down . The bores rings are perfect as are the piston rings, the new guides seals and valves checked out OK as well. So I wondered if I have a crack in the cylinder head leaking oil into the combustion chamber?. I placed the head on the bench , plugged the oil supply feed to the rockers and filled the oil way up with WD 40 and left it a few hours-NO leak. I then filled the casting up ( see photo) with Gasoline and left again a few hours and the number 4 combustion chamber was damp with gasoline whilst the number 3 combustion chamber was not. I am currently repeating the test with WD 40 oil. I have added a photo of the cylinder head with two red pencils showing the casting area I filled for clarity.
It looks as though I have a porus cylinder head over the number 4 combustion chamber????? Cylinder heads are not available from the HONDA parts supplier here and I wonder if anyone in the UK has a spare left hand cylinder head for me to make a comparison test with????
Left hand cylinder head with red pointers
Left hand cylinder head with red pointers

Oddbirdwithbrokewing
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Re: GL11000 Blue smoke

Postby Oddbirdwithbrokewing » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:29 pm

OK the silence is deafening!! :?:


I'm not sure why no others have chimed in on this. Not ashamed to say that I have had no experience with "porus" cylinder head. With the older wings it is not that unusual to have some blue smoke on start up as some oil can seep into the combustion chamber, as i am sure you know, especially if left on the kick stand rather than the center stand. But with your rebuilt engine I would not think that would be a problem. Other than that it is back to warped, cracked head, or block or poor quality after market gaskets or o rings.

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Re: GL11000 Blue smoke

Postby Baunix63 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:45 pm

Seers,

the engine got new liners on the left side. Did the bores get a honing?
If not, the bores are to smooth, so there can be no film of oil for lubrication of the rings and pistons. This film is a kind of needed sealing together with the pistons . Without a very light raughness of the bores there is no oily film.
So the new liners can faster wear out and the pistons work like a pump, pumping oil from the crankcase to the combustion chamber.
Michael from Bavaria

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moffat
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Re: GL11000 Blue smoke

Postby moffat » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:20 pm

Bores where honed with a nice cross hatch pattern on both left hand bores I plan to reassemble the engine with new oil control rings even though they have only covered 650 miles since the last overhaul. All rings will again be carefully gapped as per the book.
I have just filled in the top of the cylinder head casting with epoxy and when it sets I will fill with gasoline again as per the same test I did and check if the gasoline is still leached through the casting. If not I will put it all together and run the engine to check for smoke again. If Ok then it points to the porous head then that's the problem identified but I am looking for another left hand head one to replace it and do a proper job.
Thanks for the interest shown its highly appreciated

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squirrel
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Re: GL11000 Blue smoke

Postby squirrel » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:56 pm

hi not sure if this will help but i was at a bike meet last week spoke to a guy selling parts from a gl1100 (unfinished project ) decent bloke he may have the head you need he lives in Chichester i can give you his number if interested .

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moffat
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Re: GL11000 Blue smoke

Postby moffat » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:53 am

Thanks squirrel let me have his number please

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squirrel
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Re: GL11000 Blue smoke

Postby squirrel » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:13 pm

pm sent with numbers hope it helps

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Johnyy Smoke
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Re: GL11000 Blue smoke

Postby Johnyy Smoke » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:23 pm

Heads on e-bay all the time. A simple search will yield results. Regards, Johnyy

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moffat
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Re: GL11000 Blue smoke

Postby moffat » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:04 am

Have fixed the heads I think. Strange thing I have found on the number 4 piston oil control rings though. One ring has a gap of 0.6 mm (within tolerance) and the other one has a0.95 gap which is barely within tolerance? The bike has only done 650 miles since the rings where fitted and number 2 cylinder oil control rings and both 0.60 mm gap. Have I had a faulty ring from new I wonder so have bought new rings which are all gapped 0.6 mm which is in the middle of the manual tolerances. Am having the bores honed again as well.
Bores are standard size so have not got smaller rings.

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moffat
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Re: GL11000 Blue smoke

Postby moffat » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:00 am

OK update on this one. FIXED!!
I have had the bores rehoned again and fitted new three ring sets on number 2 and number 4 pistons in spite of the only odd oil control ring tolerance gap on number 4 cylinder. The old rings are in the trash. The new oil control rings are in the middle of the tolerance level and are at 0.55mm. The compression and scaper rings are also well within the tolerance as per the book.
I have had the head crack tested and its showing no cracks and now is not leaching the small amount of oil through it as I have filled the area in with high grade epoxy resin which has cured the leaching now. I plan to run the bike for a while and am prepared to aquire another cylinder head if necessary but want to use the bike in the unusually good weather here at the moment.
Result so far on second start up from cold-NO SMOKE!!!!!!!!
I really think the problem was with a faulty oil control ring from the last overhaul 650 miles ago and thus stress to anyone who is re ringing their engine to carefully test the gap of ALL the rings including both the thin oil control rings as you will become extremely good at removing and refurbishing GL1100 engines if you do not ( I am well on the way now!!!!) I found personally that as I had to do the job on my own without an assistant I put the two crankcase halves together with the two casing halves on the bench with the engine in the same position as in the frame and got number 2 cylinder piston in first followed by number 4-not easy and requires patience but can be done. Lowering the left hand case onto the pistons was too difficult for me on my own.
I assume that as the number 2 and 4 cylinders are extra lubricated via the oil feed through the connecting rods the oil squirted on the bores must require more work from the oil control rings than the ones on cylinders 1 and 3 which are only splash lubricated from the gears below ??????

Oddbirdwithbrokewing
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Re: GL11000 Blue smoke

Postby Oddbirdwithbrokewing » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:49 pm

Happy Trails from Texas. ;)

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moffat
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Re: GL11000 Blue smoke

Postby moffat » Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:10 am

After 35 miles the same thing is happening as before but its number 2 cylinder that is smoking now.!!!! I start the bike on the centre stand as always keep it on that in the garage and after a couple of seconds blue smoke again which diminishes but stays there. I took the plug leads off to determine which of the left hand bank is smoking and its now number 2 and not number 4 as before.
So I run the engine, dump the oil ( which was fresh 10-40 Mineral not synthetic or semi synthetic) refill with fresh oil of the same type start up and NO SMOKE. Then I leave it for a while and back comes the smoke on start up which again remains. I have repeated this test several times to the same effect?
The bores are re honed and new carefully gapped piston rings fitted with the gaps apart at 120 degrees as per the book new valves and guides and seals fitted and tested . Cylinder head has also been checked for cracks using crack detector dye and is OK. Head gasket is new again and mating surface checked for warping, I have even run it with the crankcase vent pipe removed as a check and also with the left hand cylinder head rocker box cover removed to eliminate oil leakage from the valves which are new anyway. Compression is 175 psi per cylinder.
Has anyone come across this before?
I am not going to strip it down for a third time and wonder if I have to run it in for a good mileage to ensure the new rings are bedded in with the rebored cylinders but have never come across this problem with other engines in the past.

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Re: GL11000 Blue smoke

Postby moffat » Sat May 31, 2014 6:41 am

Bike sold as seen as I have given up!




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