bad rings????????


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carl langendorf
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bad rings????????

Postby carl langendorf » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:09 pm



ok guys, here is another ? for anyone, my goldwing ran really good but i got very bad mileage out of it and cylinder #2 wasnt firing, would fire outside motor but was wet inside and wasnt firing , i attempted to run it while placing a mirror down inside but i couldnt see anything and things were dry, people told me to put some carb cleaner in it and see if it helped, i did help a little bit, it ran better and idled better but there was alot of gas in my oil so i wont ride it, a guy on here said call him up and he would help me with a clean, so i removed the carbs in preparation to bring them to him and what i found when i removed the air cleaner lid was oil in the carb manifold and oil in the air box, now someone told me that my rings are shot. how would i check? the bike ran really good and before adding lucas carb cleaner everything was dry and is it possible to do a compression test without the carbs in? also how do i do the test? reason is i was told that i cant just bump the starter and take my readings that i have to do it by hand of which i have never done, if the rings r bad then how do i replace them with tearing the motor apart? guy says i can do by removing the head, then the jugs but i thought the jugs were welded n couldnt b removed but he says they r bolted on, is that true? sure dont want to get into replacing rings and stuff, would rather get a different bike



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David-Mantle
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby David-Mantle » Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:45 pm

I receive Randakks newsletter on a regular basis and this month he just happens to explain how to use a compression gauge to test if the rings are shot .
http://www.randakksblog.com/engine-comp ... dium=email
Where your friends says the rings can be replaced by removing "jugs" - I take it you mean the barrels. These are cast as part of the crankcase assembly consequently the cases need splitting in order to remove the pistons and rings.
Should the engine show good compression one cause of oil might be the oil seals on the INLET valve leaking. These prevent the engine sucking oil into the combustion area which might be your problem. Should this be the case it is a relatively easy fix - just remove the head and strip out the valve springs , replace the seal and rebuild . Don`t forget you need a new head gasket - the are NOT re-usable. Whilst at it check the cambelts for wear or damage. Any sign of either then replace them.
Just a thought - hope it helps.
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SteveB123
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby SteveB123 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:47 am

Valve guide seals can be changed with the head in situ, no need to pull it unless you suspect HG issues.
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David-Mantle
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby David-Mantle » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:09 am

SteveB123 wrote:Valve guide seals can be changed with the head in situ, no need to pull it unless you suspect HG issues.


Thanks Steve - I didn`t know that they could be removed in situ :) that will save me a job should mine need doing in the future.
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carl langendorf
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby carl langendorf » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:42 pm

ok how do u change out them seals? im not even sure what the issue is yet, i dont think i can do a compression test with the carbs off can I? or should i put the carbs back on to test it then remove them again? it sux trying to get them off, but on the flip side i should be good at pullin them off lol :lol:

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SteveB123
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby SteveB123 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:41 pm

carl langendorf wrote:ok how do u change out them seals? im not even sure what the issue is yet, i dont think i can do a compression test with the carbs off can I? or should i put the carbs back on to test it then remove them again? it sux trying to get them off, but on the flip side i should be good at pullin them off lol :lol:


I see no reason why a comp test can't be done with the carbs off. What issue to you foresee?

To change seals you'll need to hold the valve shut (there are a few methods) and compress and remove the valve springs.
Current:82 GL1100 Interstate, 60 Amp Poorboy, MSD coil
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82 GL500 Silverwing

carl langendorf
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby carl langendorf » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:06 am

update.....i did a compression test yesterday and in cylinders 1,2,and 4 were 120 and cylinder 3 was at 92, all 4 plugs fire outside of bike. so with compression being so low im assuming the rings are bad and it will need a rebuild? i can pick up an 80 gl1100 motor with a fresh documented rebuild less then 2k ago...for 500 but im sure if i really want to do this or not or just get a different bike altogether......i was looking at a 1200 sportster from a family member and know the history of the bike and know i wouldnt have any riding trouble but i really like my goldwing so could anyone give me any input? i really dont care anything about a harley or not, for me its not what i ride but the fact that i ride

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Re: bad rings????????

Postby Wingsconsin » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:53 am

Sorry to hear you're having so much trouble with the bike...
My offer to do the carb rebuild still stands if you elect to stay with the 'Wing.
But it seems you MAY have bigger fish to fry...
I seem to remember that if you put a teaspoon on oil into the cylinder and do the compression test the pressure coming up indicates rings...?
Someone else maybe should verify this...
Lower compression on 1 cylinder is a bad sign....but not the death blow....but beyond my pay grade at this time...
Best wishes
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby WingAdmin » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:53 pm

Wingsconsin wrote:I seem to remember that if you put a teaspoon on oil into the cylinder and do the compression test the pressure coming up indicates rings...?
Someone else maybe should verify this...


Correct. If you have low compression, pour a tablespoon of oil into the cylinder via the plug hole and re-test. If the compression comes up, it's worn rings causing your problem. If the compression stays more or less the same, it's valves causing your problem.

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SteveB123
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby SteveB123 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:26 pm

carl langendorf wrote:update.....i did a compression test yesterday and in cylinders 1,2,and 4 were 120 and cylinder 3 was at 92, all 4 plugs fire outside of bike. so with compression being so low im assuming the rings are bad and it will need a rebuild?


What spec are you using to determine the compression is low? Was this test done with the carbs off?
Remember, compression specs are for engines at operating temps.
Current:82 GL1100 Interstate, 60 Amp Poorboy, MSD coil
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carl langendorf
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby carl langendorf » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:11 pm

i read on someone else's post that compression should be between 160 to 170, i did a compression test with engine cold, (sitting for 2 weeks) and carbs off. a couple people told me that with the way the carbs are mounted on these that they should be on to get the right numbers as with the carb intake tubes off there will be cylinder leakage from the start and they won't read right, sounds maybe right to me im not sure but with the intake tubes off you can see the intake valves on each cylinder so how can the right compression build up? i'm new to these wings, i really hate to have to get rid of it, its a great ride and comfortable more then other bikes i have had. my motor ran GREAT before i took the carbs off. it sure didn't act like a bad ring problem at all, of course i'm basing that on cars i have had that had bad rings/valves so maybe i'm wrong. :?:

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moffat
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby moffat » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:02 am

Was the bike burning oil before you had this problem as it sounds like shot piston rings to me. The other test is to apply compressed air into the sparking plug holes ensuring that the cylinder head valves are closed and listen for blow past the rings. Also listen if air is coming out of the inlet port or exhaust ports.
I have done this test with a pressure gauge attached and if the pressure falls quickly its a problem. To change the rings it an engine out job and crankcase split.
The left hand pistons have to be removed from the inside and the right hand bank come out of the top of the bores. Chances are you will need to replace bearings and other components whilst you are at it. If you go ahead you will probably need assistance as the engine weighs about 105 kilograms. A maintenance manual is essential!!
Good luck

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SteveB123
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby SteveB123 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:07 am

carl langendorf wrote:i read on someone else's post that compression should be between 160 to 170, i did a compression test with engine cold, (sitting for 2 weeks) and carbs off. a couple people told me that with the way the carbs are mounted on these that they should be on to get the right numbers as with the carb intake tubes off there will be cylinder leakage from the start and they won't read right, sounds maybe right to me im not sure but with the intake tubes off you can see the intake valves on each cylinder so how can the right compression build up?


Pressure builds up on the compression stroke, same as when the engine is running. The only reason the "carbs off" makes a difference is that the engine would be cold, which will affect the compression numbers.

Carbs do NOT seal "cylinder leakage", despite what you've been told; that's the valves and cylinder rings job.
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby WingAdmin » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:25 am

That said, when the carbs are on, and butterflies are closed, it creates vacuum between the carbs and the cylinders on the intake stroke, which means the overall amount of air available to be compressed in the cylinder on the compression stroke is less, meaning you will have lower compression numbers. That is why you need to hold the throttle wide open while cranking when you are doing a compression test in order to get a valid reading.

If the carbs aren't on the engine while doing the compression test, then this point is moot.

carl langendorf
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby carl langendorf » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:03 pm

no the engine wasnt burning any oil at all, it leaked a tiny bit every once in a while, by this i mean a drop in a week week n 1/2, i didnt hold the throttle open when doing the test? and at the same time after i stopped cranking the pressure stayed the same, it did not fall or leak out until i released the valve in the gauge to move onto the next cylinder. it really didnt use oil and ran well. the main issue i had was that my fuel mileage went from 140 to 160 per tank down to 70 at best and oil leak got severe, gas was in the oil. when i looked at the plugs cylinder #2 wasn't firing, it was dripping wet, hence gas into oil, plug sparks outside of the motor so i know its getting spark, but it was getting to much fuel and wasnt allowing the plug to fire, stuck float?? when i removed the plugs (after carbs were off for a week) plug 2 was still dripping wet so b4 hooking up gauge i cranked starter and gas came spitting out of that cylinder, once that was out i proceeded to do the test. im just not up to doing a ring job. i have located a motor with a fresh documented rebuild with 2k on it, and the guy is giving me a titled frame, rear swing arm, final drive assem, bake brake, rear master cylinder for 500......but b4 i pick it up i want to make sure im not wasting money by getting another motor if mine isnt the rings........

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moffat
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby moffat » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:37 am

OK lets recap
No blue smoke before the carburettors leaking petrol into the engine.gearbox lubrication oil ?
Smoking now probably due to viscosity change in the oil caused by the petrol leak into the oil?
Fix this first as leaking petrol into the oil via the carburettors dilutes the engine oil altering its lubricating ability , could also cause an explosion and shows a very high petrol consumption.
Your compression figures are all above 145 psi ( 170 is ideal at sea level)? Not rings or valve seats. Remember to turn off the engine kill switch when cranking over during the compression test as with all that gasoline around you may a large bang!


Sort out the leaking petrol from the carbs problem , sounds like sticking needle valve (s) operated by the floats or the floats are not floating. This is all explained in the maintenance manual.

carl langendorf
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby carl langendorf » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:18 pm

no i had no smoke until i added a lucas carb cleaner to my fuel, i know i added to much and once the bike warmed up after about 20 miles it started to smoke like crazy but then after another 20 or 30 miles bike ran better and no more smoke so im assuming that the lucas was cleaner up the carbs and someone else told me that it will smoke sum and thats how it gets rid of any garbage in the fuel system and the cylinders, now i dont know this to b fact and i have never used this stuff, i always used seafoam but this was given to me so i thought i would try it, its more of a gel type stuff, im not even trying to crank it over with that bad oil in it becuz i dont want any damage but i sure dont want to have to change rings either, not my thing, but i really like my wing and dont want to get rid of it, i figured out last week that i ended up only paying 50 bux for and have less then 200 put into it with 7000 on it since i bought it last feb. i should have the carbs back and put on hopefully by next weekend and will keep everyone updated as to what i find. should i do another compression test after its warmed up? compression seems a lil bit low?

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moffat
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby moffat » Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:52 am

Yes sounds like the smoke was from the carb cleaner as it only smoked after you added it. It takes while
Again sort the carbs out first before getting too worried about the piston rings as they could be OK
If it ain't broken don't fix it!
Put the correct 10-40 grade mineral oil in it , keep you eye on the oil level gauge to ensure it does not rise which is an indication of gasoline getting into the sump via the carbs-and always turn off the petcock on the tank when leaving standing a while. As long as it goes well with no excess of blue smoke just ride the thing. People can get obsessive about cylinder pressure and as long as it reasonable with only about 5 psi difference between cylinders
These machines are very well made and can last a long time and get the maintenance manual

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Britanicus
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby Britanicus » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:33 pm

If you can get an engine with a fresh rebuild get it. It is not really a hard job to put it back in the bike (expecially if the transmission is still attached.) or so I have been told. 500 bucks seems very reasonable.

My bike has started to misfire and burns abit of oil, I had a compression test done and all my compressions are around 65-75 pds. It is still running and fuel economy seems worse. But it is a Honda bullet proof so I just keep on rolling. If it dies I may find an engine and swap out. but more likely I will just part out and buy a new ride. Maybe as 1200 series wing.

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Re: bad rings????????

Postby Wingsconsin » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:08 pm

Maybe we should try this...

Bring those carbs up to my place..(they are off the bike right?)
We will run them through the ultrasonic, get the floats set perfectly, clean them up real good...
You go back to the house and put them on the bike and start it...
Do a stone cold valve adjustment on the bike - being very meticulous about doing it correctly perfect is the goal..
Then I visit with my 4 guage manomoeter and we SYNCH them perfectly...

After that point we have eliminated a bunch of possibilities - and it hasn't cost much of anything...maybe $100 max if we need parts for the carbs.... IF the thing was smoking due to an overdose of carb cleaning solution (maybe) then a good ride or 3 will clean that out and then re-do the compression test....

Just my 2 ¢
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby kirbb9 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:19 am

Hate to disagree but with 90 psi the rings are shot, you can also do a leakdown
test to confirm if it is rings.

Brady

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moffat
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby moffat » Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:32 am

Again
Sort the carbs out first

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SteveB123
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby SteveB123 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:59 am

kirbb9 wrote:Hate to disagree but with 90 psi the rings are shot, you can also do a leakdown
test to confirm if it is rings.

Brady


What is the cold compression spec?
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby Wingsconsin » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:16 am

carl langendorf wrote:no i had no smoke until i added a lucas carb cleaner to my fuel, i know i added to much and once the bike warmed up after about 20 miles it started to smoke like crazy but then after another 20 or 30 miles bike ran better and no more smoke so im assuming that the lucas was cleaner up the carbs and someone else told me that it will smoke sum and thats how it gets rid of any garbage in the fuel system and the cylinders, now i dont know this to b fact and i have never used this stuff, i always used seafoam but this was given to me so i thought i would try it, its more of a gel type stuff, im not even trying to crank it over with that bad oil in it becuz i dont want any damage but i sure dont want to have to change rings either, not my thing, but i really like my wing and dont want to get rid of it, i figured out last week that i ended up only paying 50 bux for and have less then 200 put into it with 7000 on it since i bought it last feb. i should have the carbs back and put on hopefully by next weekend and will keep everyone updated as to what i find. should i do another compression test after its warmed up? compression seems a lil bit low?


Clue -- Added a cleaner and got smoke.
Getting carbs back from...? A rebuilder...? Good !
Postings are my opinions based on experience and acquired knowledge.
Your results may vary. Universal disclaimers apply.


Motorcycle Adventure Storys writen by me
http://neverlost-justexploring.blogspot.com/

carl langendorf
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Re: bad rings????????

Postby carl langendorf » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:56 pm

im inclined to agree with moffat and wingsconsin here, i think the trouble is carbs, and wingsconsin, im going to run them up by u maybe mid sept, when more money comes in that way if anything is needed i can take care of it right away instead of waiting, im still going to get this other motor as he is giving me alot of other stuff with it, including a titled frame. i just did a compression on my brothers 98 harley fatboy......dealer says it should be 140 to 150 and its at best 110, and his is burning oil, huffing and puffing smoke at every stop and just not running right whereas mine runs great and there is no smoke at all, once in a while right after start up from sitting on the side stand but it doesnt even last for 10 seconds. i really do think that dealing with the carbs is the first and best way to go to start off, and at the same time when i did the test on mine it held steady pressure without going down or losing any pressure for over 3 minutes until i let the air out of the gauge. like i said im going to take moffat's advice and wingsconsin and deal deal with carbs first and i will call wingsconsin in maybe 2 weeks to set up something up??? i was tempted to remove the float bowls just for a look to see how bad they are but i dont want to mess sumthing up? im not a carb person lol :lol:




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