valve snap after replacing stem seals


Information and questions on GL1100 Goldwings (1980-1983)
  • Sponsored Links
User avatar
triketrash
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:36 pm
Location: Shelton, WA
Motorcycle: 1981 GL1100 Interstate

valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby triketrash » Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:34 pm



Hey guys- got my gasket kit in the mail and was excited to get down to the hangar and replace my valve seals to see if I could stop my big smoke
cloud at start up ( right side.) It went pretty smoothly but when I turned the engine over by hand after putting the rocker assembly back on, there was a significant snap of the spring on the right rear intake valve at the same point in the cycle each time it went around. I looked to see if the spring and keepers were seated properly and they seemed to be. I gave the spring a couple of good taps with a socket to try and make sure it was seated- didn't seem to do much. I then turned the engine over a couple of times with the electric starter with no plugs in and I didn't notice the snapping. Thinking I had solved it, I put things back together but when I ran the bike, the snap was still present. Turned off the bike and called it a day. Any ideas? VInce All I can think to do is pull everything all off again, remove and inspect the spring and valve. :|



User avatar
ct1500
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:09 pm
Location: Glastonbury,CT
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500
Contact:

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby ct1500 » Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:28 pm

If everything is lined up and installed correctly the first thing that comes to mind aint good and is a bent valve stem catching in the guide and popping out, is the snap when the rocker is coming off a lobe with spring tension releasing or upon valve going down (spring compression).

Compare the behavior of that valve while turning engine over by hand to its brother next door. When it snaps the valve should not be suddenly moving or jumping. Rest a finger or 2 on it while turning to see if you can feel it jump. Isolate the snap action to valve or possibly the rocker kicking out, lash adjuster or something else.

The rope deal in cylinder was done after cams out right, if done prior I suppose it is possible the rope got crunched between a moving valve and piston. Two types of bent stem possible here, on the stem end or head end. Nothing was ever forced was it.

Wait to see what it is though prior to getting nerved up.
This is what I do
Local and need repair help with your 1500, Valkyrie or ST please PM

User avatar
triketrash
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:36 pm
Location: Shelton, WA
Motorcycle: 1981 GL1100 Interstate

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby triketrash » Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:06 pm

yes- U used the rope in the cylinder trick to hold the valves up- I didn't really crank down on it too hard though- hard to believe I bent a valve but I guess it's possible. Ya it was getting dark when the snapping started, and I was ready to pack it in for the day, but I'll have a look tomorrow and see if I can isolate exactly when the snap is occurring relative to the cam action and also if I can feel the valve hanging up. I think I'll take the spring off again, and take a look at the stem, slide the valve in and out a little, see if I can detect some bend. I should have taken a photo to show you but when I first looked at the stem after putting the rocker assembly on, it seemed like it was at a bit more of an angle with the rocker than it should be. I don't know- will report back tomorrow but I'm trying not to freak out just yet. Thanks ct1500

User avatar
redial
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:17 am
Location: Kapunda, SouthAustralia
Motorcycle: 1997 GL1500 Spectre Red Aspencade

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby redial » Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:41 am

To test for a bend of the stem, put it on a flat surface (table, bench, etc), and roll it with the head over the edge and the shaft on the flat surface. It should be obvious if the stem is out of alignment and/or bent. I hope it is something simple.
Len in Kapunda

The world is not going to finish today, as it is already tomorrow in Australia and New Zealand, and other islands of foreign nations such as Guam and Samoa.

User avatar
triketrash
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:36 pm
Location: Shelton, WA
Motorcycle: 1981 GL1100 Interstate

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby triketrash » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:39 am

Well I woke up early with this problem on my mind- going over things and realized something. Drum Roll..... I forgot to put the bolt in from the left through the fuel pump into the camshaft. What would THAT do? By the way, what are the torque settings for that bolt, as well as for the valve cover bolts?

indianakid
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:28 pm
Location: long beach, ca
Motorcycle: 83 GL1100 I

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby indianakid » Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:08 pm

hi triketrash,

i dont think that bolt would cause your problem.......

i agree with ct1500 that the rope to hold the valves closed should only be used with the cams off. it is possible to bend a valve (it doesn't take much) if it is being held open by the cam. a quick way to check for a bent valve is to do a compression test or better yet a leak down test. if the valve stem is bent the valve will not seal. if it is bent the head will have to come off to replace the valve.

best of luck !

ps: mine smokes like a mosquito fogger from the left side if it sets for more than a few days (or weeks, shame on me). i just let it warm up and it goes away. oil consumption is not noticeable between oil changes (~5000 miles). if i run it every day i only get a few wisps of smoke to none at all.

User avatar
triketrash
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:36 pm
Location: Shelton, WA
Motorcycle: 1981 GL1100 Interstate

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby triketrash » Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:14 pm

thanks indianakid

Let me clarify a couple of things.

The big cloud of smoke I get is (hopefully was) from the RIGHT side and EVERY startup, even if the bike was sitting for only 5 minutes. After 5 mins the bike runs clean, with no sign of burning oil. Compressions are 150 all the way around.

The rope went in AFTER the rocker and cam assembly came off.

I hope to get down there later today to have a look and put that bolt in.

will report back,
VINce

User avatar
triketrash
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:36 pm
Location: Shelton, WA
Motorcycle: 1981 GL1100 Interstate

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby triketrash » Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:22 pm

actually, it's more like 30 seconds of smoke, not 5 mins for the record

User avatar
triketrash
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:36 pm
Location: Shelton, WA
Motorcycle: 1981 GL1100 Interstate

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby triketrash » Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:54 pm

Well ct1500- you called it- bent valve stem :( . I took a video to show you guys but I can't figure out how to get it off the darn phone. Anyway, I removed the rocker assembly and took the spring off that valve. When I rotate the valve stem between my fingers, the bend is obvious. So.... what now? Is there such a thing as bending it back, or am I destined to do a head job on a perfectly good head? I just can't believe it's bent. I'm pretty sure I did it when putting the rocker assembly back on somehow, not in the rope trick.

User avatar
ct1500
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:09 pm
Location: Glastonbury,CT
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500
Contact:

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby ct1500 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:38 pm

No big deal. You will never get that back to OEM straight and if reused it will wear the guide out. Just replace the one valve and you are good to go.

You are in luck, brand new is available.

Trying to force the old valve out will mess up the guide. I would use a cut off wheel in a dremel or die grinder to cut stem above guide boss after head removal. Chamfer the end of stem with a file if any material left over for easy removal.

Use a Honda head gasket and don't forget the 2 oil orifice O rings, intake seals. If the valve seat passes a couple of tests it will be plug n play.
This is what I do
Local and need repair help with your 1500, Valkyrie or ST please PM

User avatar
triketrash
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:36 pm
Location: Shelton, WA
Motorcycle: 1981 GL1100 Interstate

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby triketrash » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:53 am

well ct1500- you make it sound so easy that I have a little more confidence. I've never pulled a head before but I guess I'm gonna give it a go. I just need some clarification of terms. So you're talking cutting the stem just above the seal? I'm not sure what the guide boss is. And the 2 oil orifice O rings, intake seals- are these one in the same? And what kind of test are you talking about the valve seat passing?

User avatar
landisr
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:18 pm
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Motorcycle: 1976 GL1000
1994 GL1500A

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby landisr » Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:15 pm

Regarding pulling the head, I THINK I read somewhere here that there is an easily missed bolt on the bottom. The local gurus here can confirm or nix this. Just sayin'. ;)

Ron in AZ
Beam me up, Scotty. There's no intelligent life down here.

User avatar
terryt
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:52 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Motorcycle: 1979 gl1000 trike

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby terryt » Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:27 pm

Hi I might be missing some thing here.
you changed the valve seals without removing the head, yes
set engine up on timing marks before taking apart,
you removed the cam carrier and the cam, or did you leave the cam and timing belt in place?
replaced the valve seals refitted the cam shaft and carrier,
refitted timing belt checked valve timing and reset tappets,
turned engine over by hand a few times rechecked timing,
start engine
if you have bent a valve then your valve can timings out

User avatar
ct1500
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:09 pm
Location: Glastonbury,CT
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500
Contact:

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby ct1500 » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:26 pm

A couple items need to be gotten, this or similar for cleaning combustion chamber/valve seat with your drill.

http://www.pepboys.com/product/details/ ... quantity=1

And this for checking valve fit.

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detai ... &ppt=C0139

Intake O rings between head and intake, oil orifice O rings between head and block.
This is what I do
Local and need repair help with your 1500, Valkyrie or ST please PM

User avatar
ct1500
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:09 pm
Location: Glastonbury,CT
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500
Contact:

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby ct1500 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:53 am

Where you went wrong most likely was on cam installation. You should have been on crankshaft TDC of #1, can be checked by looking at left side cam pulley to ensure timing marks are lined up there. When installing cam and prior to tightening down, the right cam pulley timing mark must also be properly indexed. It is always a good idea to back off rocker adjusters (also keeps cam from jumping around) as valve clearance adjustment should be part of the job prior to valve cover install and after confirming all is timed correctly.

Cam timing was off and #3 piston was up allowing valve to go down just a bit hitting piston, and then as cam and rocker shaft were tightened more the weak point was the stem sticking out of guide. And you then went on to set cam timing from there, sound about right? ;)
This is what I do
Local and need repair help with your 1500, Valkyrie or ST please PM

User avatar
triketrash
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:36 pm
Location: Shelton, WA
Motorcycle: 1981 GL1100 Interstate

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby triketrash » Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:09 pm

No guys- the cam stayed in place the whole time. I undid the caps, pulled the rocker assembly, did the seals, and then re-installed the rockers. I didn't look at the timing at all because it never changed- the fuel pump was in place on one end, and the timing belt on the other. When I first heard the "snap" sound was when I was gradually tightening the cam caps.

Today I went to a local bike that I decided to buy as a parts bike- 1981, same year- kind of crusty but for $200 I don't think I can go too far wrong. I pulled the head off of the doner and hopefull will start re-installing the replacement valve and redoing my head tomorrow. Thanks again for all your comments and suggestions. Vince

User avatar
triketrash
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:36 pm
Location: Shelton, WA
Motorcycle: 1981 GL1100 Interstate

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby triketrash » Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:01 pm

ct1500- I was just looking at the links that you suggested- Man that wire brush looks pretty course- That's what you use for cleaning up the seat? Seems like it would scratch the heck out of it. And how about that permatex stuff- is that lapping compound? If not, what is it?

User avatar
ct1500
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:09 pm
Location: Glastonbury,CT
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500
Contact:

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby ct1500 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:28 pm

A wire brush will do no damage to hardened steel. The dye is used by rebuilders to check valve seat to face contact.
This is what I do
Local and need repair help with your 1500, Valkyrie or ST please PM

User avatar
triketrash
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:36 pm
Location: Shelton, WA
Motorcycle: 1981 GL1100 Interstate

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby triketrash » Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:36 pm

ok- I'll do it- thanks

User avatar
triketrash
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:36 pm
Location: Shelton, WA
Motorcycle: 1981 GL1100 Interstate

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby triketrash » Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:05 pm

Yesterday I pulled the head from a donor bike, today I pulled the head off of my bike to replace the bent valve with a donor valve. Hopefully I'll cut off the bent one tomorrow, get the seat cleaned off, and see how the new one fits. If I have any doubts I'll take it in for a valve job but I'm hoping some lapping will do the job. I've never done any of this stuff before so I'm hoping I don't screw it up too bad.

Here's a couple of pics to give you a feel for the job. The hangar is my Man Cave- The contraption in the foreground is my weightshift controlled trike- kinda like a Goldwing in the Sky!!
Attachments

User avatar
ct1500
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:09 pm
Location: Glastonbury,CT
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500
Contact:

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby ct1500 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Lapping valves is not done at the factory nor does the auto machine shop lap valves, everything is ground and the preferred method. Honda manual is contradictory on the matter when they advise not to reface valves but OK to lap :?: Whether .0001 in. comes off the valve face via machine or lap, end result is the same.

A $34 dollar new valve would have been cheaper and less work, new OEM is always better than unknown used. Your chances of plug and play and playing together better are much better with the new with only the valve seat that MIGHT need attention

What is the mileage on your bike.
This is what I do
Local and need repair help with your 1500, Valkyrie or ST please PM

User avatar
triketrash
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:36 pm
Location: Shelton, WA
Motorcycle: 1981 GL1100 Interstate

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby triketrash » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:22 pm

My bike has 57 K- donor bike is unknown because the speedo has been changes.

Do I need to use any RTV on the head gasket or is that not recommended? Man the old one sure came off nicely. Very little crap stuck to the block or the head.

Also, I'm not seeing any fuel pump gasket or cam seal in my kit- any chance I can re-use those or is that just asking for trouble?

User avatar
RoadRogue
Posts: 1917
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:51 pm
Location: Castlegar BC, Canada
Motorcycle: 1997 1500SE

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby RoadRogue » Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:04 am

Please take that tube of RTV and throw it as far from your bike as possible and then forget where it landed. RTV has NO place in or on your engine. I know that may sound a little harsh but I have seen all kinds of damage from RTV when used with or instead of the proper gasket, clogged oil pick up screens, blocked oil passages etc. 8-)
Ride safe, Todd
Over night campers welcome

User avatar
Johnyy Smoke
Posts: 599
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:44 am
Location: Se Minnesota
Motorcycle: 1980 GL1100
Vetter. "Its like Deja Vu all over again".

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby Johnyy Smoke » Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:03 pm

ct1500 wrote:Where you went wrong most likely was on cam installation. You should have been on crankshaft TDC of #1, can be checked by looking at left side cam pulley to ensure timing marks are lined up there. When installing cam and prior to tightening down, the right cam pulley timing mark must also be properly indexed. It is always a good idea to back off rocker adjusters (also keeps cam from jumping around) as valve clearance adjustment should be part of the job prior to valve cover install and after confirming all is timed correctly.

Cam timing was off and #3 piston was up allowing valve to go down just a bit hitting piston, and then as cam and rocker shaft were tightened more the weak point was the stem sticking out of guide. And you then went on to set cam timing from there, sound about right? ;)

Yep- about the only way this could have happened- rocker adjusters not backed off all the way prior to tightening down. Regards, Johnyy

User avatar
Johnyy Smoke
Posts: 599
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:44 am
Location: Se Minnesota
Motorcycle: 1980 GL1100
Vetter. "Its like Deja Vu all over again".

Re: valve snap after replacing stem seals

Postby Johnyy Smoke » Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:08 pm

Install new cam seals also- I would recommend using gasket sealer on them also, this can be a problem point if not addressed correctly (oil leaks). Regards, Johnyy




Return to “GL1100 Information & Questions”




Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests