Resurecting: 2 dead cylinders


Information and questions on GL1100 Goldwings (1980-1983)
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OpenCarryUSMC
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'02 1100 Shadow Saber
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Resurecting: 2 dead cylinders

Postby OpenCarryUSMC » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:23 pm



Hey all, love the site and have gotten a lot of good info from reading the posts. Now I'm at a point where I think (rear?) I know the answer but wanted to get verification.

ME: Formally trained mechanic with experience on jet and piston aircraft as well as 10 years in automotive. NO experience with bikes beyond basic preventative and routine maintenance. NO experience with carb rebuilding.

BIKE: 1981 GL1100 with Vetter gear.

It's been parked since 2005. Last summer the GF convinced (pressured) me into working on it thinking it would be as easy to resurrect as the 02 Shadow I'd done the summer before....yeah right.

The tank was full of crud and I pulled it. Found this site in the process because the book didn't mention the necessity of pulling the entire rear wheel. Wow, it was a lot less frustrating after doing that and I got a lot of other good info. LOL I cleaned it with soapy water and a couple handfuls of nuts and bolts. Then used two jugs of CLR on it, rinsed and rinsed. Came out looking soooo much better.

The main pickup was flowing well but the reserve was still clogged. I tried everything. Air pressure both directions, SeaFoam down the pickup line over night, a coat copper wire trying to find a plug in the line itself. Nothing worked. So I ended up taking some heavy square edged line trimmer line and chucking it in the cordless. A lot of work later "drilling" through the crud and it got through (though it punched a hole through the screen grrrr).

I also cleaned up the fuel level sending unit while I had the tank apart. Tested it with a digital MM prior to reinstallation (works too now that I have it all back together).

I will say this now to avoid everyone having to tell me. NO I haven't changed the timing belts yet and YES I will do that as soon as I determine that it's worth putting that much money into it.

Put it all back together and tried to turn it over. Wouldn't turn with my 200 amp shop jump/charger rig but spun nicely once the plugs were out. Okay, engine isn't seized. I replaced the battery on my main ride (the shadow for now) and put the old one in the wing after giving it a good charge. Fired right up but running rough as I expected. Sea Foamed the fuel big time and ran about 3 gallons through it in short runs as I had to pull on the choke and keep the RPM's fairly high.

Changed out the oil and filter while it was warm, inline fuel filter and lines, and the plugs.

The right side smokes and puts out hot exhaust while the left side doesn't smoke and the exhaust is cold or barely discernible warmth. At 4K or so the left will get a little warmer but not like it should be. I checked spark with a timing light attached to each plug wire in turn and all of them operated the light. Pulled the left plugs and did the eyeball spark check...hot and bright.

Disconnected the fuel line at the petcock and sucked straight SeaFoam in until it was obvious it had hit the carbs and then a little longer (it will run on straight SeaFoam). Let it sit 24 hours then ran it on gas for a bit and repeated the process.

Running better at this point so I took it on a short spin around the (country) block....5 miles. Had to keep the RPM high (2000-2500 to keep it running) and it was way short of power. This is similar to what I experienced with the Shadow when I resurrected it. Ran more SeaFoam through it during the week running it for a short time and then letting the SeaFoam sit for 4 to 24 hours.

Next weekend I took it out and did two laps around the block....have to wait for the GF to be available to follow me just in case. Running better but not much.

After it cooled I started it and checked the pipes. Still has cold to luke warm exhaust on the left side and the right is hot.

Pulled the left side plugs and started it. Put my hand in front of the plug holes for several seconds and the air coming out is quite warm but there didn't seem to be any fuel. Plugs are shiny and a little damn but don't smell like coolant.

So I'm thinking I'm still not getting any fuel into the left bank cylinders and I'll have to pull the carbs. I have a bore scope on the way as well as compression tester adapters (didn't have the right adapter so I have no idea if the compression is good yet) they'll be here this week.

I'm considering popping off the top covers on the carbs and putting some SeaFoam in there. I don't think that will fix the problem though as I fear, from reading all the threads I could find here on the subject, that the idle passages (at least) are plugged up and the SeaFoam can't get through them in order to dissolve the nasties. From what I've read here, that would mean the carbs are going to have to come off and be rebuilt.

If it goes that way, I'm seriously considering a single carb conversion using the VW Type IV (I think) manifold set up. I think it would come out about the same as a carb rebuild and would seriously minimize carb maintenance.

Any thoughts, suggestions, etc. would be appreciated.


An unloaded gun makes a pretty poor hammer....unless it's a HiPoint. (ME)

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WingAdmin
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Re: Resurecting: 2 dead cylinders

Postby WingAdmin » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:28 pm

Sounds pretty much like you're going the right way. Compression test will tell a lot obviously, but assuming the compression is good (wet and dry), I think you're going to have to buckle down and face the carbs.

The VW single carb conversions do work fairly well, but you will be giving up some low-end torque - they just don't generate the vacuum at low air velocities that the four smaller carbs do.

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WINGER3
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Re: Resurecting: 2 dead cylinders

Postby WINGER3 » Thu May 01, 2014 12:31 am

Sorry to hear about the problem your haveing. I had the same problem on my 83 GL1100A that I just sold last week. Mine was on the right #1 & 3#, the left side ran hot and right side ran cold, did seafoam, MM oil, you name it, no help. Pulled the carbs, right side floats on both carbs where way off, PO said he rebuilt them, had no idea of what he was doing. Carb's looked brand new inside, but was set up wrong, re-set everything and put the carb's back in and fired it up and ran like new. As WingAdmin say's your looking at pulling the carb's if the compresson is good.

You also need to check the sync., if the right side is good the left might be way off, so the right side is doing all the work no mater how good the carb's on the left are, it will not heat up like the right side. :mrgreen:
DON'T DESTROY IT-RESTORE IT

OpenCarryUSMC
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Medford, Oregon
Motorcycle: '07 Shadow Aero 750 (GF's)
'84 GL1200A
'82 GL1100I (FOR SALE)
'83 Yam XJ650 (GF's) (Sold)
'02 1100 Shadow Saber
'81 GL1100 standard
'00 750 Shadow ACE (Totaled)
'83 Yam XJ650 Maxim (sold)
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Re: Resurecting: 2 dead cylinders

Postby OpenCarryUSMC » Thu May 01, 2014 7:18 am

Thanks for the replies. I’m definitely wanting to see the compression test results and get the bore scope inside the cylinder. When I was in the Corps those things were thousands of dollars. GF just bought me one (so I can work on her home wiring not the bike….LOL) for next to nothing. I’ll definitely have to take a pic if it’s worth anything and put it up on the site.

WingAdmin
When you say you “lose some low end torque”, how much are we talking about? I’m a pretty mild rider. Always have been but even more so since putting one into a Rottweiler, then a telephone pole and losing my wife back in 2001. I don’t need it to run like a Marine with a DI climbing up his arse but I do need it to go when I need it to go and not be ready to die when I’m idling through a parking lot.

From what I’ve read there is a bit of work to the conversion but nothing horrible and it sounds like the total cost is about the same as a Randakks carb kit with the books and miscellaneous other things needed. I don’t figure I can ruin the value as they’re pretty cheap out here on the west coast. In fact, if I can’t convince the GF to ride it after I have it back in shape, I’m considering selling it and picking up a nice Interstate or Aspencade 12 or 1500.

Winger3
I wish mine was a PO but I abused her by parking her back in 2005 and letting her sit in the garage on the center stand. The ex had a Shadow that she preferred and when she couldn’t ride front due to meds I started riding the Shadow. Silly me but it kept momma happy (apparently not as happy as 65% of our investments though).

I understand the basic concept of synching the carbs but thought that was more of a TUNE than a “get any fuel” kind of thing. Or were you talking about after they’re rebuilt? Either way, it sounds like I need to find a new spot in the tool box. Oh darn, I have to buy a new tool!


So I guess the big questions for the Wing experienced folk are:
1) Is taking those top caps off give access to anything that might allow clearing something up? I’ve got a lot of experience working upside down, backwards, and behind my back (you wouldn’t believe how many funk positions a fighter jet makes you get into to reach things). I figure if that bore scope works I can get a look see and if I can figure out a way that it might just make some noise around here. Then again, I’m sure a lot have tried to avoid the trauma of yanking those carbs so there isn’t much chance of that succeeding.

2) Just how difficult is it for a mech with no carb experience to rebuild four carbs and get them running properly when it’s all back together? That and close to equal cost are the main reasons I’m considering the single carb conversion.


Great site, lot's of good knowledge here. I saved a lot of frustration getting the tank out because of this site. I also wired in a 10AMP CB when I blew the dogbone, and will be soldering the yellow wires and changing the cooling hoses and timing belts (with NAPA crossovers) when I get this puppy running. I may even start doing my own tires from now on.

One thing on the crossovers, the STANT number for the fuel cap crossed to something else at an O'Reilys parts store (NAPA was out) and while it was vented, it doesn't vent on a Wing. Must have to be THAT Stant cap. I'll be messing with the stocker and see if I can get it functioning again.
An unloaded gun makes a pretty poor hammer....unless it's a HiPoint. (ME)

OpenCarryUSMC
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Medford, Oregon
Motorcycle: '07 Shadow Aero 750 (GF's)
'84 GL1200A
'82 GL1100I (FOR SALE)
'83 Yam XJ650 (GF's) (Sold)
'02 1100 Shadow Saber
'81 GL1100 standard
'00 750 Shadow ACE (Totaled)
'83 Yam XJ650 Maxim (sold)
'82 Suz 125 St/Tr (sold)
Contact:

Re: Resurecting: 2 dead cylinders

Postby OpenCarryUSMC » Sat May 03, 2014 1:14 pm

Okay the goodies came in the mail yesterday and I just scoped the cylinders. Compression test later (lots of homework for my last college course). Not the greatest scope, the case is too long to allow moving it around inside the cylinder. However, for the price (less than $30 shipped) it's nice to be able to get a bit of a look in there.

Next step, compression test dry and wet.

Cylinder 1 seems to show a small band of corrosion on the cylinder wall but nothing really bad considering it sat for 10 years. Interesting that the cross hatching is so easily seen even after 70k miles.
CYLINDER #1
CYLINDER #1

CYLINDER #1
CYLINDER #1


Cylinder #2 shows cross hatching as well. Looks like a narrow band of????? circling the cylinder that I'm not sure what it is.
CYLINDER #2
CYLINDER #2

CYLINDER #3
CYLINDER #3

CYLINDER #4
CYLINDER #4

CYLINDER 4
CYLINDER 4
An unloaded gun makes a pretty poor hammer....unless it's a HiPoint. (ME)

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Re: Resurecting: 2 dead cylinders

Postby silverado6x6 » Sun May 04, 2014 1:32 am

I'm not in your league of an aviation mechanic or tech, but been wrenching all my life. These carbs on bikes are real finicky things with very small passageways, way more than what you see on cars. The best tool I have used is an ultrasonic cleaner, if you need to shop for one make sure its big enough, heated is nice but not absolutely necessary. Then getting a multi carb synch tool assists with getting them balanced.

That bore scope sounds like a worthy investment, I have even seen one at Walmart, I will have to think about getting one.
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OpenCarryUSMC
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Medford, Oregon
Motorcycle: '07 Shadow Aero 750 (GF's)
'84 GL1200A
'82 GL1100I (FOR SALE)
'83 Yam XJ650 (GF's) (Sold)
'02 1100 Shadow Saber
'81 GL1100 standard
'00 750 Shadow ACE (Totaled)
'83 Yam XJ650 Maxim (sold)
'82 Suz 125 St/Tr (sold)
Contact:

Re: Resurecting: 2 dead cylinders

Postby OpenCarryUSMC » Sun May 04, 2014 2:23 am

silverado6x6 wrote:That bore scope sounds like a worthy investment, I have even seen one at Walmart, I will have to think about getting one.


Wrenching on planes isn't any different than cars, just a different attitude....IT HAS TO BE RIGHT the first time. A good attitude for bikes as well.

My GF bought the scope through Amazon and a 7 meter (21 foot) USB version was under $30 shipped. I've seen 3 meter versions for $15 + shipping on Amazon. The length of the camera head doesn't allow much maneuvering inside the cylinder but it's better than nothing. Just plug it into your USB, load the software, and take stills or videos.

For about $20-25 she also bought me a wifi OBDII plug. Goes into the diagnostics connector and then connects to my smart phone. Various APPS available that can pull the codes, reset them, give engine parameters, etc. Haven't tried that yet but will soon.
An unloaded gun makes a pretty poor hammer....unless it's a HiPoint. (ME)

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Re: Resurecting: 2 dead cylinders

Postby WingAdmin » Sun May 04, 2014 9:28 am

OpenCarryUSMC wrote:
silverado6x6 wrote:That bore scope sounds like a worthy investment, I have even seen one at Walmart, I will have to think about getting one.


Wrenching on planes isn't any different than cars, just a different attitude....IT HAS TO BE RIGHT the first time. A good attitude for bikes as well.

My GF bought the scope through Amazon and a 7 meter (21 foot) USB version was under $30 shipped. I've seen 3 meter versions for $15 + shipping on Amazon. The length of the camera head doesn't allow much maneuvering inside the cylinder but it's better than nothing. Just plug it into your USB, load the software, and take stills or videos.

For about $20-25 she also bought me a wifi OBDII plug. Goes into the diagnostics connector and then connects to my smart phone. Various APPS available that can pull the codes, reset them, give engine parameters, etc. Haven't tried that yet but will soon.


I have both of those as well, and TORQUE is an excellent app for your phone that works with those WIFI OBDII adapters.

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DaveDanger
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Re: Resurecting: 2 dead cylinders

Postby DaveDanger » Mon May 12, 2014 11:06 pm

Good Evening OpenCarryUSMC,
I'm an A&P/IA down here in Georgia and I've been restoring an 83 GL1100A myself. Bought it two years ago from the PO who'd had it stored in a garage for the previous 7 years. I've accomplished several projects with this bike, and even with it not 100%, I've been riding since this time last year. A daily rider in addition to weekend jaunts thru the Georgia backwoods:)
The carbs were my biggest project as well, and believe it or not, they're not that difficult, especially using the kits and book from Randakk. I had splurged for a mercury-stik synchronizer for a previous bike, so that did help with the process, but 4 matched vacumm gauges will do the job as well. I had not done more than dabble in bike carbs prior to the Wing Project, so it could be pretty honestly said I was in-experienced there. I did them once with the Howard Halasz book from Randakk, and they were spot on after the sync process. The synchronizing process matches airflow/fuel flow/RPM & vacuum across the carb-set. It's not as complicated as it sounds. The book walks you thru it perfectly. (Took me an hour and a half from start to finish).
I bought it with less than 13,000 miles on it, and just this week rolled it over 18,000. It's a sweet ride:)
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Johnyy Smoke
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Re: Resurecting: 2 dead cylinders

Postby Johnyy Smoke » Tue May 13, 2014 4:49 am

I agree - the Randack kit is the way to go, expensive, but EVERYTHING you need is there.
In addition to the rebuild book they sell, I would also recommend this article http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12168
It isn't hard. Just tedious. A good weekends work. Regards, Johnyy

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Re: Resurecting: 2 dead cylinders

Postby tomos » Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:07 pm

Hi from Ontario Canada, l have been working on my bike for some time now,but when time came to do carbs l realized that is less expensive to send carbs to PISTOL PETES CARB SERVICE than to do it myself. Put on the paper cost of gaskets kit ,time,knolege setting it right ,synchronize it right,it is much better to have it done by a professional. My carbs are fantastic now and engine runs perfect.
This is my experience.
Regards Zoran

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eklimek
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Re: Resurecting: 2 dead cylinders

Postby eklimek » Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:12 pm

+1 for Pistol Pete. I figured it would be just my luck to miss a small piece through inattention and not discover the problem until after its all back together.




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