GL1000 cams in GL1100


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madmike1950
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GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby madmike1950 » Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:24 pm



I have 2 sets of camshafts out of a 1976 GL1000. My understanding is they were pretty hot since the original GL was for competition for the Kaw Z-1. My understanding also is that you drop those in a GL1100 (which should bolt right in after cutting off the shaft that drives the points) will improve performance. Has anyone done this? I believe the 1000 and 1100 head are the same. just being curious :?:



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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby Old Fogey » Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:41 am

As with most things like this, the answer is yes and no.

To make it worthwhile, the carbs and ignition have to be altered too, the 1100 carbs being smaller than the 1000. The carbs are easy; just swap one set for the other, including the manifolds.

The ignition timing is more problematic. The 1100 electronic ignition is non-adjustable (in theory anyway). You could eliminate that unit and go for the 1000 set up, but the 1100 head is not machine to take the points housing. I have heard of folk just fitting it anyway but I don't have experience of that. Correct answer is to use a 1000 head on the left side.

Hopefully you have the 1000 rocker sets to go with the cams. Rocker pads and cam lobes wear to one another; if you simply fit the new cams to your 1100 rockers without doing anything else, you will wipe out both cams and rockers in short order.
If you don't have them, you will have to remove every sign running from both rockers and cams. I believe that the rocker pads have a coating of Stellite on them; whatever, when I have done this I found they have an extremely hard surface.
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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby madmike1950 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:33 pm

Thanks , this project is in the planning stage. I appreciate the info. 8-)

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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby madmike1950 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:35 pm

And sometimes the impossible takes a little longer. :!:

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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby Phavas » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:37 am

Hi,
I'm trying to do just this but also include the GL1000 ignition. I've posted elsewhere and if someone can enlighten me on the wiring I would appreciate it.
As for rockers and cams wearing in on each other: myth. The cams do most of their wearing early in their life and then just spin, unless a bearing runs dry and something goes doolally.
Same for the rocker pads. Once they're set up, the variations will be minimal.
I've got a bunch of GL1000 heads, cams and rockers and have built heads from my parts bin on several occasions. Wear is not a real issue.
You can also run the stock 31mm carbs and re-jet if you want it richer, but the GL1100 will run quite happily on the emissions control units with the earlier cams.
I'm more concerned about the wiring.
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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby Old Fogey » Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:11 pm

Phavas wrote:Hi,
I'm trying to do just this but also include the GL1000 ignition. I've posted elsewhere and if someone can enlighten me on the wiring I would appreciate it.
As for rockers and cams wearing in on each other: myth. Absolutely not!
The cams do most of their wearing early in their life and then just spin, unless a bearing runs dry and something goes doolally.
For the cam journals to head bearings that is true.
Same for the rocker pads. Once they're set up, the variations will be minimal.
This is where you run into problems. I've been building engines for 40+ years and I assure you that if you investigate any reputable engine builder, they will tell you that my advice is good. The Wing cam castings are not the best and you can definitely run into serious wear problems if you don't follow it
Check out this page:

http://www.wingovations.com/cams-and-rockers/4579471096
I've got a bunch of GL1000 heads, cams and rockers and have built heads from my parts bin on several occasions. Wear is not a real issue.
You've been lucky not to have had the problems pictured!

You can also run the stock 31mm carbs and re-jet if you want it richer, but the GL1100 will run quite happily on the emissions control units with the earlier cams.
Yes, it will, to a point. But you lose out on the whole reason for swapping in the more aggressive cams and ignition timing since those carbs and their manifolds will considerably restrict the top end breathing.

I'm more concerned about the wiring.
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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby Phavas » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:07 pm

The Wingovations page presents a worse case scenario and, obviously, I don't agree with it: he says "DON'T DO IT!" then tells the reader precisely how to do "it". It's full of contradictory info: Use a file to remove the wear ridges, then 600 emery cloth and crocus cloth. No mention of how to do it however. Using a file is problematic: there is no way to accurately file off a wear ridge without scoring another part of the rocker face or rounding off an edge (I've tried). If you want to use emery, you can wrap the cloth around the cam lobe and rock it back and forth, loosely assembled in the head, then wash the unit thoroughly to remove the particulate, but it will take days. These things are hard, if they're badly worn or scored, chuck them out and go for relatively unworn parts, or call a machine shop to re-face them.


I have also been building engines for 40 + years, so we can beat our chests over this and still not get anywhere.
You wouldn't put severely worn parts together in any engine but; when you can't get new, you use your experience and clean up old to fit. Can't count all the heads I've put together but I haven't had a wear-in problem yet.

It's all down to the quality of the parts you have on hand: put nasty looking cams into a warped head with a set of heat-blued rockers and you're going to have problems. Use your brain and choose decent used parts and it's all good.

Cheers,
PJH
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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby Old Fogey » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:32 pm

I'm sorry that you don't agree but perhaps you should read it again, without the pre-conception this time.
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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby Phavas » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:34 pm

I like your signature, which is why I'm a little surprised at your inflexibility.
I used to build Jaguar racing engines. Usually I never met my clients: an engine would arrive, clapped out, in a crate and I'd be given a budget. The best compliment I ever got was from a guy in Connecticutt which read: "Your engine blew up. We won. Brilliant!" I have assembled motors with clapped out pistons, reversed and shimmed rings, re-used shell bearings that most shops would chuck and honed ridges to tolerances that were simply "unacceptable" in any machine shop but the things worked. Having said that, I am an American who has lived in Europe most of his life. I've worked as a mechanic in England for many years and currently live in France. I know what a bunch of unimaginative gits some "restoration" and "bespoke" engine guys can be. We used to call it "Fix with new." I've had a healthy dose of "experts" who recommend no one do what they do themselves and I don't subscribe to the philosophy. If you can convince someone you've got a magic solution to their mechical problem, you've got a client for life who never questions the invoice. The latest bunch of clowns I've dealt with have been the "Vincent experts" (I have had several of them) who prescribe some of the most ridiculous "fixes" for simple problems because they want irreproducible results. Ergo, I take all advice, like that from "Wingovations" with a large dose of salt. I have built maybe 50 GL1000 heads from piles of parts. I always checked the cams in a lathe to see if they were bent, checked the heads for warpage, and inspected the bearing races for traces of abrasion, heat etc... The claim that Honda machining is approximate is hogwash. You want bad machinig? Try mating crankcase halves from two different Vincents, you know the $75000 motorcycle that never won a race?
Its a prescription for disaster. British bikers want numbers matching bikes because mongrols just don't run. I can take a cam from opne Goldwing and slap it into another and have minimal or no problems that can't be solved with a little lapping.
Anyway, My object is not to make enemies, just enter into discussions. Didn't mean to offend you.
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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby Old Fogey » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:07 pm

I'm not offended, nor being inflexible, just annoyed at you putting words in my mouth.

If you like the signature, you may have noticed that I am the 'he' you refer to!

Nowhere in that article did I say to use a file on anything.

The cam in the picture is a NEW cam. I really don't care that you would, but I would not run a new cam with rockers that had ANY signs of previous running.

Where is the claim of 'approximate' engineering? I did not rubbish Honda engineering, far from it. But plain statement of fact; that cam casting is none too accurate.

As time served toolmaker standard engineer, I am perfectly capable of understanding what is needed and the best way to achieve that aim.

I don't subscribe to the 'fix-it-with-new' either. Many, many times with these old machines that isn't an option anyway, and a good deal of the enjoyment of running these bikes and helping other folk run them is finding ways to overcome that problem.

So no need to fight over stuff. We are on here to help people with less knowledge than ourselves fix their old Dinosaurs. You and I may be up to fixing stuff with less than the proper way to do things, but my aim with those articles is to give the correct information to owners that don't have that grounding, whatever you may think about them.
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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby HawkeyeGL1200 » Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:45 pm

It would be nice to see a step by step "how to" article on the proper way to use 1000 heads/cams etc. on an 1100 engine if one of you gentlemen felt up to writing it. I'm always interested in learning new things. I've read about this before, but never really had any interest in tackling it myself. I would imagine there are plenty out and about who would like to see it done, step by step... with photos of course.

I've see a few "single carb conversion" articles put together like that, and always found that sort of thing very interesting...

You both seem to have forgotten more about building engines than I ever knew...
I am wrong as often as I am right concerning what is wrong with someone else' motorcycle without having seen the machine in person. Guessing with limited information, as to the source of the trouble, is sketchy at best.

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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby Phavas » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:26 am

Truce. It's a help forum you're right.
Anyway, it deserves discussing over many drinks somewhere.

Cheers,
PJH
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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby guidowitz » Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:16 pm

I need to do an engine swap on my 1976, however, 1975--1977 GL 1000's engines are hard to come by. Now looking at the 1100 or possibly a 1200 for the swap as they seem to be more available. I too would love to hear any details from the most knowledgeable among you on this subject as it seems to apply to a bunch of us.....if you please.

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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby Phavas » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:34 pm

Don't use a GL 1100 engine!
GL 1000 are plentiful, but why do you have to swap? These motors are good for insane mileage.
I have a good Gl1000 engine if you want it. Write me on pjhavas@gmail.com or call on 2078918161 and we'll talk.
Cheers,
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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby guidowitz » Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:25 am

I am probably going to swap a 1100 onto my 1976.

I am now wondering if I put 1000 heads on the 1100, will I also need to swap the 1000 carbs on the 1100 or should I just use the 1100 carbs?

Apprieciate all the useful info here...

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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby Johnyy Smoke » Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:57 pm

I am wondering if the performance increase would be enough to validate the effort? Regards, Johnny

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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby Overdog » Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:54 pm

I've been wondering about this whole cam swap thing......is it possible to swap 1200 cams into an 1100 to get more low end power???

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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby Old Fogey » Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:30 pm

guidowitz wrote:I am probably going to swap a 1100 onto my 1976.

I am now wondering if I put 1000 heads on the 1100, will I also need to swap the 1000 carbs on the 1100 or should I just use the 1100 carbs?

Apprieciate all the useful info here...


1) The heads are the same apart from the left hand 1000 head having provision for the contact breaker assembly.
2) If you are using the 1000 heads complete with cams and rockers, you will need to use the 1000 ignition system.
You will also need to change the timing marks in the flywheel.
3) If you are using the 1000 heads complete with cams and rockers, use the 1000 carbs.
4) if you are using the 1100 cams and rockers, use the the 1100 electronic ignition and the 1100 carbs.
5) The 1100 engine in the 1000 frame requires modifying the frame cross member above the centre stand to accommodate the 1100 ignition vacuum canister.
6) or find a way to eliminate the 1100 ignition drive, thus removing the problem & fit the 1000 heads and maybe use a 1000 rear cover.
Different years of 1100 use different gearing. You may be disappointed with the swap.

Overdog wrote:I've been wondering about this whole cam swap thing......is it possible to swap 1200 cams into an 1100 to get more low end power???


Not possible.
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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby Phavas » Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:24 pm

A gl1000 rear cover will not fit a gl1100. The alternator stators are different sizes. Cut a blanking plate out of an oil bottle and glue it in place of the 1100 ignition. You won't have to modify the frame. Carbs are just preference. They're practically the same with the 1100 a little easier to tune.
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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby Phavas » Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:26 pm

Oh yeah: you son't have to change any timing marks on the flywheel as they're in the wrong place on both bikes. Use the split timing method and you're good.
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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby Old Fogey » Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:56 pm

Phavas wrote:A gl1000 rear cover will not fit a gl1100. The alternator stators are different sizes. Cut a blanking plate out of an oil bottle and glue it in place of the 1100 ignition. You won't have to modify the frame. Carbs are just preference. They're practically the same with the 1100 a little easier to tune.
Zaphod


Alternator:
GL1000:
31120-371-003 superceeded by 31120-mb9-003
31120-371-003 superceeded by 31120-mb9-003
31120-463-003 superceeded by 31120-mb9-003
GL1100:
31120-463-003 superceeded by 31120-mb9-003

Notice anything?

The only four cylinder Wing with a different physical size alternator was the GL1200 LTD and SEi. That required a rear cover with a larger housing for the alternator (which would only fit the 85-87 GL1200 anyway.)

For the carbs question, I'll let the recognised Guru explaing:
http://www.randakksblog.com/early-vs-la ... b-specs-2/

Phavas wrote:Oh yeah: you son't have to change any timing marks on the flywheel as they're in the wrong place on both bikes. Use the split timing method and you're good.
Zaphod.


Where are they wrong on both bikes? Why would Honda mark them wrong?
The 75-77 with early carbs and cams are marked correctly, as are 78-79 models with the later GL1000 carbs and cams. There is a change in timing marks between the years.
And how are you going to use the 'split timing method' without the flywheel markings?
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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby guidowitz » Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:10 pm

Very curious to know if I will need to remark the flywheel if using a 1981 1100 with 1976 heads and 1976 ignition in order to set timing correctly

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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby Phavas » Sun Mar 13, 2016 8:14 am

Don't know why we have to lock horns like this. I ordered a Gl1000 rear engine cover to fit on my Gl1100 for precisely the same modification being effected and it would not fit. Maybe someone sold me another engine case, but it was not the same curve over the stator. I do not think it was the wrong cover as, while I don't have it in front of me, we checked the part number.

The carbs are a matter of preference at the performance levels we are talking about. I use the Gl1100
Carbs on that bike with with Gl 1000 cams.
Finally: ignore the crank marks and time your bike without timing covers by marking the left cam wheel and either using a stick gauge or making corresponding marks on the crankcase front.
Now maybe you can drop the attitude Fogey and get out of my face, or you can PM me.
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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby Old Fogey » Sun Mar 13, 2016 9:57 am

I could say the same thing. Every time I post, you have to take a knock at it in some way.

I try very, very hard to make sure any information I pass on to owners, who don't have that knowledge, is correct.
You make a statement about the alternator. I know that is wrong, but I check the part numbers and confirm it.
Not having an 1100 engine here at the moment, I did say 'maybe' with the 1000 cover. Both engines use the same gaskets so it's a reasonable assumption.

If you're doing all that work to convert, presumably for maximum performance as there's no other reason to it, surely you would use the performance alternative of the bigger early carbs, especially the 755s with their cut-away slides?

Yes, your timing method will work. But it's not for none-technical owners. The ignition timing is important, so it still depends on which cams are fitted, the right auto advance unit for those cams and to a lesser extent which carbs.

Ok, out of here right now! Anyone wanting to continue this can PM me.
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Re: GL1000 cams in GL1100

Postby sw3dl1 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:02 am

OK, I sufficiently confused.
Can I use complete GL1000 heads on my GL1100? When I say complete I mean cams & rockers just the way they came off the donor bike, kind of a plug and play type thing. I would like to keep the GL1100 Ignition system. I'm also thinking of using a set of GL1000 carbs as well.
Is this set up "doable" and worth the time?




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