Aaaaaaarrgghh!! *#@%$ Filter bolt!!!!


Information and questions on GL1100 Goldwings (1980-1983)
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ankgrays
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Aaaaaaarrgghh!! *#@%$ Filter bolt!!!!

Postby ankgrays » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:16 pm



OK..I've cooled off a bit now.

'81 GWI. Changing the oil and filter for the first time since I made her mine. Drained oil ok, but the washer that goes on the oil drain bolt was welded to the bolt. (PO probably just used an air hammer wrench to put it back on.) Fixed that problem...on to the NEXT one. Oil filter bolt was totally FROZEN!! The bolt head was partially stripped, so of course I stripped it the rest of the way. Rounded it off perfectly!! Now what? I used every technique I could think of to get it off, and a lot of colorful, to say the least, language. I gave up and came here, and searched the site for other ways to get the stinkin' thing off, that I might not have thought of. I tried pliers, channel locks, and vise grips to no avail. I gave up again,and went in to complain to the wifey. That didn't work either, (like I thought it would anyway), and went back out to the garage. Finally found a smallerish size of pipe wrench, and tried that several times. I finally got a fairly good grip on the bolt head, and held my breath(again).

WOOO HOOO!!! That worked!!! I removed filter case, filter, bolt and spring...but there wasn't a washer (the one that gets lost and discarded). Hmmm. Maybe that is the reason that it was frozen on?? Anyway...

I bought a washer and re-assembled everything, and put it back on the engine, tightened everything down...not too much though, and started to put in the new oil. That's when I noticed a good 1/8 inch gap between the filter case and the engine. Full stop on the adding oil, took the filter assembly apart again, and realized the culprit might be the washer I had bought for the filter assembly...OR maybe the filter bolt wasn't the correct length. HMMMM...

I removed the washer, re-assembled the parts, and tried again. This tightened the filter case up to the engine where it should be. Added oil, snugged everything up, checked for leaks. Started up baby and checked again for leaks. Went for a 6-7 mile jaunt and returned home to check for leaks again. Still none. FINALLY, SUCCESS!!!

So here is the question: Is it ok to NOT use a washer?

P.S.: I still can't find my neutral when warmed up...I can shut it down, and find it immediately. Neutral safety switch as suggested??


I don't tolerate voluntary stupidity very well, and it seems to be rampant now-a-days.

"One of the problems about quotes from the internet, is that one cannot confirm their validity." - Abraham Lincoln

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eklimek
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Re: Aaaaaaarrgghh!! *#@%$ Filter bolt!!!!

Postby eklimek » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:11 am

No one checks to see that they don't toss the filter washer out because no one is aware of it.

I have not seen the rubber damaged in the numerous bikes I have resurrected. The filter is a commonality in the Honda four cylinders.

A nearly as I can tell the spring merely serves to press the filter against the case and allow oil into the over pressure bypass.

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RBGERSON
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Re: Aaaaaaarrgghh!! *#@%$ Filter bolt!!!!

Postby RBGERSON » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:14 am

finding neutral while not moving is a common problem..I try to find it before I stop..at lights and parking but if not engine off always snaps right in...live with it???

What washer are you talking about the one inside the filter housing that goes between the filter and spring..that can 't hold the filter housing off ..the spring compresses.
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

FAIR WINDS,
RB

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HawkeyeGL1200
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Re: Aaaaaaarrgghh!! *#@%$ Filter bolt!!!!

Postby HawkeyeGL1200 » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:33 am

I had the same problem with the bolt on an 1100 I recently changed oil on. The previous person tightened the filter housing bolt so tightly, that it was rounded off. I had to resort to a pipe wrench to get the bolt out.

There should be only one washer, if I recall correctly, as previously stated... inside the filter housing... none between the bolt and the canister itself, as there is an o'ring that seals the bolt to the housing (inside diameter of the housing at the juncture between the bolt and housing) and the housing itself has another oring that seals to the engine cases.

I'd have to look up the torque value for the bolt, but it's probably 10-12 ft. pounds... something achievable with a 12 or 13 mm wrench and "normal" pressure. I can't think of exactly the correct size at the moment. Over-tightening will not improve the seal between the housing and the cases... it will only give the trouble you, me and I'm sure several thousands of others encounter when they go to remove the filter after someone else has gagged the bolt too tightly.
I am wrong as often as I am right concerning what is wrong with someone else' motorcycle without having seen the machine in person. Guessing with limited information, as to the source of the trouble, is sketchy at best.

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dingdong
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Re: Aaaaaaarrgghh!! *#@%$ Filter bolt!!!!

Postby dingdong » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:47 am

Chances are good you had the filter housing misaligned. Probably against the alignment lugs. You didn't say anything about using a new bolt. ??? If not you will be cussing the CO instead of the PO next time. LOL The torque for the filter bolt is 20/24 ft lbs. Seems like a lot but that is what the Honda manual states. I tighten mine by feel. Just a smidgen past snug. ;)
Tom

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

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HawkeyeGL1200
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Re: Aaaaaaarrgghh!! *#@%$ Filter bolt!!!!

Postby HawkeyeGL1200 » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:45 pm

dingdong wrote:Chances are good you had the filter housing misaligned. Probably against the alignment lugs. You didn't say anything about using a new bolt. ??? If not you will be cussing the CO instead of the PO next time. LOL The torque for the filter bolt is 20/24 ft lbs. Seems like a lot but that is what the Honda manual states. I tighten mine by feel. Just a smidgen past snug. ;)

For the diameter of that filter bolt, 20-24 ft/lbs still isn't a lot. I don't use a torque wrench on mine, but I probably should.
I am wrong as often as I am right concerning what is wrong with someone else' motorcycle without having seen the machine in person. Guessing with limited information, as to the source of the trouble, is sketchy at best.

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ankgrays
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Re: Aaaaaaarrgghh!! *#@%$ Filter bolt!!!!

Postby ankgrays » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:11 pm

Well...

I DID order a New bolt. I was going to buy one locally...but they wanted $44 for one. A little too much for this tight wad.

Ordered one on line for less than $13 (that included shipping).

SO..for the mean time, I "re-tooled" (ground down) the head of the old bolt and made it so that I can at least get a cresent wrench, or vice-grips on it, and ride it while I'm waiting on the new bolt.

As far as the washer, after reading Hawkeyes' post, I realized that I put the washer on the outside of the filter...not inside, like Hawk said. (Maybe the old one DID get thrown away) soI'll try that on the next oil change.

In the meantime...still no leaks without the washer.

73's
I don't tolerate voluntary stupidity very well, and it seems to be rampant now-a-days.

"One of the problems about quotes from the internet, is that one cannot confirm their validity." - Abraham Lincoln

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ram11397
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Re: Aaaaaaarrgghh!! *#@%$ Filter bolt!!!!

Postby ram11397 » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:25 pm

Hi
stole this from a post done sometime last year yes you do need that washer it helps with the filter,

The spring and washer work in a manner which allows the filter to go into 'bypass mode' when the engine/oil is cold. Once the engine/oil warm up enough the spring/washer work together to engage the filter and allow the filter to do its job. No sprig and no washer means you are always in bypass mode and the filter never filters the oil.

Read more: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15431#ixzz3AErzbYH3

Rick
Rick
1982 GL 1100 Aspencade

indianakid
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Re: Aaaaaaarrgghh!! *#@%$ Filter bolt!!!!

Postby indianakid » Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:17 pm

the spring and washer that are seen when changing the oil filter have nothing to do with the "bypass mode" and are only there to keep the filter in position against the engine block. this positions the filter correctly on the "bolt" (which is more than just a bolt). it has passages for the oil to return to the engine and it has the pressure relief valve that opens for "bypass mode" when the pressure across the filter gets too great such as with a very dirty filter or too thick oil.

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ankgrays
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Re: Aaaaaaarrgghh!! *#@%$ Filter bolt!!!!

Postby ankgrays » Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:03 pm

So I want to make sure I get this right...

If I placed the bolt on its head, I would:

Put the filter case on first

then the spring

then the filter with the washer INSIDE of the filter(?), then screw it on.


I had the case, then the spring, then the washer, then the filter, then screw it on.
I don't tolerate voluntary stupidity very well, and it seems to be rampant now-a-days.

"One of the problems about quotes from the internet, is that one cannot confirm their validity." - Abraham Lincoln

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HawkeyeGL1200
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1981 GL1100 Interstate

Re: Aaaaaaarrgghh!! *#@%$ Filter bolt!!!!

Postby HawkeyeGL1200 » Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:48 pm

The filter cartridge fits on the bolt, after you put the o'ring on the bolt. Inside the cartridge in this order, the spring, the washer, the filter, then the large o'ring fits into the "face" groove on the cartridge (I usually wipe a little motor oil on the orings prior to fitting them into their groove), then you thread the bolt into the engine, paying close attention to the alignment "lugs" on the cartridge that fit on either side of the corresponding lug on the engine case (to keep the cartridge from rotating when the bolt is tightened). The lugs should fit on the left side of the case if I recall correctly... doing this from memory...

I will try to add a link to a parts diagram from an parts site here: http://www.hondapartsworld.com/OEMpartf ... E14MG9E06B
I am wrong as often as I am right concerning what is wrong with someone else' motorcycle without having seen the machine in person. Guessing with limited information, as to the source of the trouble, is sketchy at best.

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dingdong
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Re: Aaaaaaarrgghh!! *#@%$ Filter bolt!!!!

Postby dingdong » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:17 am

And the washer is there to keep the spring from digging into the rubber ring on the filter. It has no effect on anything else. (Probably isn't even necessary since many aren't there any more.)
Tom

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

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littlebeaver
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Re: Aaaaaaarrgghh!! *#@%$ Filter bolt!!!!

Postby littlebeaver » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:25 am

Man I bet you are happy that sucker came loose,, sounds like you won that battle... I remember a member gave advice to jump on the wrench and such :shock: :o , I think I protested that action....I never do that...I could just see that bike falling over on the guy... Pipe wrench was a good idea...That's what I would have used as a last resort..... :lol:

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ankgrays
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Re: Aaaaaaarrgghh!! *#@%$ Filter bolt!!!!

Postby ankgrays » Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:21 am

That's EXACTLY what it was...a last resort.

I was going to get the cold chisel and hammer out next!! :o
I don't tolerate voluntary stupidity very well, and it seems to be rampant now-a-days.

"One of the problems about quotes from the internet, is that one cannot confirm their validity." - Abraham Lincoln

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WingAdmin
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Re: Aaaaaaarrgghh!! *#@%$ Filter bolt!!!!

Postby WingAdmin » Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:51 pm

ankgrays wrote:So I want to make sure I get this right...

If I placed the bolt on its head, I would:

Put the filter case on first

then the spring

then the filter with the washer INSIDE of the filter(?), then screw it on.


I had the case, then the spring, then the washer, then the filter, then screw it on.


Here you go:

Image

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WingAdmin
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Re: Aaaaaaarrgghh!! *#@%$ Filter bolt!!!!

Postby WingAdmin » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:02 pm

indianakid wrote:the spring and washer that are seen when changing the oil filter have nothing to do with the "bypass mode" and are only there to keep the filter in position against the engine block. this positions the filter correctly on the "bolt" (which is more than just a bolt). it has passages for the oil to return to the engine and it has the pressure relief valve that opens for "bypass mode" when the pressure across the filter gets too great such as with a very dirty filter or too thick oil.


The spring and washer do have something to do with bypass mode. The bolt, when properly installed with spring, washer and filter, has the function of collecting filtered oil from the inside of the filter and passing it back into the engine. If the filter is blocked, or oil is too thick to pass through the filter media (which would cause damaging high oil pressure), a spring-loaded piston inside the bolt moves. This opens the holes in the bolt that are above the filter (the holes that are normally underneath the spring), allowing oil to flow directly to the outlet, bypassing the filter. This is bypass mode.

If the spring/washer is not in place, the filter can move upward on the bolt (toward the front of the bike), uncovering the holes in the bolt that normally collect filtered oil from the inside of the filter. This means unfiltered oil is being pumped back into the engine, skipping the filter altogether. It does not take much movement - 1/8" inch will do it. Once these holes are uncovered, oil pressure will then push the filter further upward, as it is easier for the oil to flow directly into these holes than it is to flow through the filter media.

Basically, no spring = no oil being filtered.




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