May have dropped washer into cylinder


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mytown
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May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby mytown » Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:28 pm



In polishing my intakes I decided to take them all off and then block off the openings in the heads. Mistake, block as you go. When removing one of the bolts from #2 intake I thought I heard the sound of a washer falling. I didn't see it fall and found no washer. I'm not sure there was a washer on that bolt since some of the bolts did not have one. The intake was off of #4 at this point and the valve open. If there was a washer It looks like it could have easily slipped past the valve and into the cylinder.

I can see past the valve and into the cylinder to a small degree and can see no washer. I see nothing through the spark plug hole. Is there something I can use to examine the inside of the cylinder without removing the head? Advice?



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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:21 pm

remove the spark plug...do not crank the engine....use a "magnet on a stick" and go fishing....
"they" also make a bore scope....a micro camera with a monitor for just this....Good luck borrowing one.

If your convinced the hole is clear...I still recommend you gently turn over the engine by hand a few revs...if the washer is hiding..it will jam between the piston and head....SO by hand only.....

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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby thrasherg » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:23 pm

It's still expensive ($100), but not as expensive as an engine rebuild, Harbor Freight sell a bore scope that will allow you to look through the spark plug hole and see if anything is in the bore!! I cant thin k of any other way except to remove the head!!

http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-in ... 67979.html

Gary

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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:44 am

I wonder if Autozone rents a borescope?
Ours rents hand tools.

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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby dingdong » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:10 am

There are bore scopes that use a USB connector that sell for $10.00 or less. Search E-Bay
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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:34 am

That's cool.im gonna check into that.
I've got a xp laptop I could use with it.

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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby HawkeyeGL1200 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:04 am

About 100 years ago, I was "helping" my Dad rebuild an engine in his truck. We had the engine back together, and I was installing the carb on the manifold. I can't recall exactly what I was doing (probably not paying much attention while I was doing it), but I dropped a TINY hex nut and it bounced right down inside the carb.

Needless to say, I was pretty much in a state of shock. I had to walk across the shop and tell my Father that I just dropped a hex nut inside his brand new rebuilt engine... and figured he was going to kick my azz all the way back to the house. He never said a word. He reached into his tool box, pulled out one of the spring-loaded pick up tools with a magnet on the end and retrieved the nut first try...

How do you spell relief?
I am wrong as often as I am right concerning what is wrong with someone else' motorcycle without having seen the machine in person. Guessing with limited information, as to the source of the trouble, is sketchy at best.

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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby mytown » Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:38 am

A friend with a good eye and feel for such matters and I are confident that the washer is not in the cylinder. We used a flexible magnet, the head of which could be observed when looking past the open intake valve. The magnet was swept across the bottom of the cylinder from the top of the piston to the head. Many were the sweeps and much was the time spent staring into the spark plug and intake holes. Here's the magnet in action and I feel sure the washer would have latch on had it been present:
[vimeo]


Here's a video that basically illustrates a couple of different bore scopes. It's long at 6+ minutes but its informative and the USB scope is shown being used on a nice Royal Enfield. After viewing the video, I'm not sure that the scopes would show all of the area that needed to be viewed in my case. It's something I'd like to try but I'm pretty confident where I'm at.



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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby dingdong » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:44 am

Knock knock. That's what you will hear if you are wrong. Just kidding. ;) Your call at this point.
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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby Old Fogey » Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:08 am

dingdong wrote:Knock knock. That's what you will hear if you are wrong. Just kidding. ;) Your call at this point.


That's just cruel! :D

$40 for a head gasket and some time to make sure.

Or $40 for a head gasket, $30 per valve, maybe a piston if a valve jams open,or if it's a tiny washer and gets down the side of the top piston land a new piston and a possible re-bore. :o Your call at this point.[/quote]


Guess I'm the one being cruel now!
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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby mytown » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:18 pm

Kidding? Cruel? I am immune to these impostors.
My friends, I have provided a video of a simple magnet in action, something that can be plucked from the earth, perhaps from somewhere near the very ground upon which you are standing. The video is of the magnet. Being used on the object in question. Now, before I take your recommendations and spend more time and money on something very likely made in China I ask that you please describe to me how said object could possibly elude said magnet in the following scenerio: Washer falls past open intake valve; washer is not moved from its landing spot; flexible magnet is placed though spark plug hole and swept along bottom of cylinder by two mechanically inclined adults, only one having a brief history of mental illness; magnet is capable of attracting washer from 3/4" away; after 1/2 hour, no washer attaches to magnet and no washer is observed when looking through the spark plug hole or past the open valve. Assume all laws of physics apply. All kidding aside, given the position of the spark plug hole relative to the cylinder, I have doubts that a camera placed inside the spark plug hole would allow the necessary view, that being a complete view of at least the bottom of the cylinder IMO:

If it does not, then the magnet would create more certainty than a scope IMO. In fact, in looking at the head, it appears to me that a flexible magnet would do the better job. I agree that neither magnet or scope or perhaps even both will give the 100% certainty that removing the head would give, and I am willing to do just that, but before I do I need to be less certain that the magnet would have picked up the washer. I am not now asking so much for alternatives but rather for reasons to doubt that the magnet would have picked up the washer. Thanks for everyone's input.
Last edited by mytown on Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby redbug » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:50 pm

Not being of sound mind.. that said ,magnets never go where you want them to. They always seem to stick before you get there. Two thoughts, stick your magnet back in the spark plug hole, and then blow air through the intake, and maybe it will move the washer to the magnet. There are some washer's that are aluminum(i.e. a crush washer) and maybe this is one. Second thought is to go fishing with some mechanic's wire with a little hook on the end and bent to shape to go down in the cylinder, might be able to feel it and snag it. Let us know.
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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby virgilmobile » Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:26 pm

If the said washer is in the cylinder and you turn the engine by HAND,the piston will come to an abrupt stop.

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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby thrasherg » Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:41 am

If I was you, I would just rotate the crankshaft by hand until the piston is at bottom dead center (That way the washer will fall down to the bottom of the cylinder and should rest on the top of the piston, then a magnet passed through the spark plug hole should pick it up (A bit of compressed air blown down the inlet or exhaust port (Which ever port the washer fell into, would also be a good idea, but if the valve is closed it won't do much good!). If it''s a copper or aluminium washer then it will just get bent and probably spit out the exhaust valve if it's in there but unlikely to do any damage to the engine. Jut my opinion..

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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby redbug » Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:12 am

Ok, we need a update (well me for sure) on the mystery washer. Kind of like getting to the last page of the book and the page is torn out.
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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby mytown » Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:09 pm

redbug wrote:Ok, we need a update (well me for sure) on the mystery washer. Kind of like getting to the last page of the book and the page is torn out.

I did as virgilmobile suggested, cranking the engine over by hand for several turns. It turned over smoothly, no hesitation or stopping. I'm in the middle of polishing my intakes and carb tops. The heat and humidity has slowed me down, but once I am finished with that project I'll fire it up. Everything is pointing to no washer, but If somehow I hear knock knock I'll know the joke is on me.

Knock knock

Who's there?

Washer

Washer who?

I said watch her not washer!

Sorry. OK, watch her who?

Watch her more carefully you dummy. And wash her once in a while, will ya? Geez....

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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby redbug » Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:49 pm

Whew...I feel better now. Ok on to t-48 hours till and ignition. let us know ..
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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby littlebeaver » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:32 pm

All this time I have spent on this site and I thought I was goofy... :lol:

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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby mytown » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:14 pm

All's well. I did use a ProVision 100 bore scope like the one recommended at the end of the video I posted. However, since the plug is towards the top left of the cylinder was only able to view the upper left-hand corner of the cylinder. Maybe the USB style would work better. I know that there is a periscope-like attachment for both types that might help, but then again the attachment could limit how far into the cylinder the camera end can go. The Provision was a bit over 10mm at its end which limited movement. And the view was blurry. I can't recommend it for anything, really. I also blew air into the cylinder as thrasherg recommended. A rather good view is available through the intake valve opening with the naked eye. I think the air could well place any debris in view and possibly even blow it out through the intake valve opening. Also, I was able to simulate the "tink clink" sound that froze me in my tracks and started all this. It sounded just like a similar washer funneling down the center of the top of the valve cover and striking the engine guard. I did eventually find a washer a few feet away that could have been the culprit. All in all it appears to have worked out as the engine is running fine.

And I recommend stoppers like you see here:

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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby dingdong » Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:33 am

Great! All's well that ends well.
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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby Spook1800 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:10 pm

HawkeyeGL1200 wrote:About 100 years ago, I was "helping" my Dad rebuild an engine in his truck. We had the engine back together, and I was installing the carb on the manifold. I can't recall exactly what I was doing (probably not paying much attention while I was doing it), but I dropped a TINY hex nut and it bounced right down inside the carb.

Needless to say, I was pretty much in a state of shock. I had to walk across the shop and tell my Father that I just dropped a hex nut inside his brand new rebuilt engine... and figured he was going to kick my azz all the way back to the house. He never said a word. He reached into his tool box, pulled out one of the spring-loaded pick up tools with a magnet on the end and retrieved the nut first try...

How do you spell relief?

Some 45 years back my employer at the time had a truck "mechanic" drop a washer into the air intake on a Cummins V8 diesel engine. The c##khead didn't say anything and probably figured he'd get away with that one. Muggins here was the very next driver in that truck and yes, you guessed it. Blew the motor big time and the worst bit? Said "mechanic " had worked in that yard for so long he was trusted and I got the rocket (initially) for wrecking the engine. Justice did prevail eventually though, as the boss hung around when c##khead pulled the heads off and spotted the cause of the damage. Funny thing, but the "mechanic" finished up that day.
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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby HawkeyeGL1200 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:47 pm

As bad as it may seem at the time, honesty is ALWAYS the best policy. I figured my Dad was going to kick my tail all over the garage that day.. but had I not said anything, and the engine had been wrecked, he would have figured out there was an extra washer in there. Of that much I am certain. He was not a stupid man.

Lessons like that are the reason I cover openings that I don't want "foreign objects" to get into while I'm working on things to this day. I thank my lucky stars the washer wasn't aluminum or brass.

Spook1800 wrote:Some 45 years back my employer at the time had a truck "mechanic" drop a washer into the air intake on a Cummins V8 diesel engine. The c##khead didn't say anything and probably figured he'd get away with that one. Muggins here was the very next driver in that truck and yes, you guessed it. Blew the motor big time and the worst bit? Said "mechanic " had worked in that yard for so long he was trusted and I got the rocket (initially) for wrecking the engine. Justice did prevail eventually though, as the boss hung around when c##khead pulled the heads off and spotted the cause of the damage. Funny thing, but the "mechanic" finished up that day.
I am wrong as often as I am right concerning what is wrong with someone else' motorcycle without having seen the machine in person. Guessing with limited information, as to the source of the trouble, is sketchy at best.

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Re: May have dropped washer into cylinder

Postby dingdong » Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:39 am

This thread was of interest to me because I did exactly what everyone was afraid of here. Working on the carbs of my 83i. I came up short 1 washer when reinstalling the carb set. Trouble was I didn't hear it drop. Replace with another washer and proceeded to start the engine. Knock! Knock!. One bent valve and a damaged valve seat in the head. Knuckle head.


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