1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild


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RodneyB
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1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild

Postby RodneyB » Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:51 pm



I have a GL1100 that I thought needed a head gasket.Water was in the oil. It turned out to be the water pump.....Anyway, It burnt a little oil on start up so i figured i would just go ahead and redo the gaskets,and also lap the valves and replace the valve guide seals.
Everything is back together and now it smokes worst then before. It smokes for about a minute and it is oil burning. It clears up after,and does not burn any oil under load or after the first minute.
Any help would be very appreciated. :?



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Re: 1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild

Postby ct1500 » Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:19 pm

Oil level too high? Are they the correct valve seals and were they installed correctly by pushing over the valve guide until seated? After a valve job it can increase compression over the previous condition which can then now draw oil past the rings.
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Re: 1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild

Postby Mh434 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:49 am

Had that happen on a car engine of mine (Porsche 944). Turned out one of the valve guide seals hadn't sealed properly and, as the engine sat, oil would seep past the seal into the cylinder, so it smoked on startup but then stopped during operation.

Check to see if only one side is smoking...

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Re: 1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild

Postby RodneyB » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:33 am

Thank you Mh434 and ct1500 for your reply's. You both gave me a couple things to think about. First off,in my mind,I'm not sure how extra compression could allow oil to seep past.(isn't that compression pushing out and not pulling in) Maybe I'm just not getting the whole thing. But i do agree with you both about the valve seals possibly being at fault. I was sure all of them were pushed down firmly and seated correctly. I did however use an aftermarket seal. I used the Athena Head Gasket Set. Bought the set after reading good reviews about it and it being just over $70 to the door,I couldn't pass it up.

ct1500,could you maybe explain a bit more about the compression thing a bit so I can maybe understand just exactly how oil would get past the rings while sitting over night not running and cause it to smoke only on start up? Thanks

And one more thing I am a bit puzzled about is that since the heads are horizontal,how is it that the oil seeps past the valve seals anyway? Is the very little amount that could pass,be enough to make a good cloud of smoke to where I fear the neighbors might think my shop is on fire,but then just go away and run great afterward? Again,the bike did smoke for just a few seconds before,but not like this :?

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Re: 1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild

Postby Johnyy Smoke » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:10 am

Were you VERY carefull when you put on the two O-rings that go around the oil restricter pipe? These are easy to misalign.
Also be sure to retighten the heads after they cool down overnight, makes a much better seal.Regards, Johnny

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Re: 1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild

Postby RodneyB » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:30 am

Johnyy Smoke wrote:Were you VERY carefull when you put on the two O-rings that go around the oil restricter pipe? These are easy to misalign.
Also be sure to retighten the heads after they cool down overnight, makes a much better seal.Regards, Johnny



What exactly would be a result if i were to have maybe got one misplaced and not seated correctly?
I have put about 50 or more miles on the bike. No water in the oil or oil in the water....

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Re: 1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild

Postby brentsboats » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:24 pm

NOT to worry ,it will get better with time ,, i rebuilt my1100 a few years ago ,,did the same thing and then cleared up.. no worries as long as you did it right .
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Re: 1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild

Postby Mh434 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:35 pm

RodneyB wrote:... I am a bit puzzled about is that since the heads are horizontal,how is it that the oil seeps past the valve seals anyway? Is the very little amount that could pass,be enough to make a good cloud of smoke to where I fear the neighbors might think my shop is on fire,but then just go away and run great afterward? Again,the bike did smoke for just a few seconds before,but not like this :?


That's EXACTLY how leaky valve guide seals react in a 'Wing engine, particularly if it's been left on sidestand (more oil pools between the valve cover & head on the low side of the engine). Even the tiniest gap (we're talking 1/1000's of an inch here) will let the oil slip past, and a fair bit can collect in whatever cylinder's exhaust valve is open while the bike is parked. In the Porsche engine I mentioned, when I started it up, it made large clouds of blue smoke - enough to look like a fog bank moving across to the neighbor's property :shock: Strangely enough, after several months of this, the seal popped back into place itself & the oil burning suddenly stopped (that, I'm sure, is a very uncommon occurrence...).

BTW - the '81 GL1100 I had would often smoke badly on startup, if I left it parked on the sidestand. In that case, it was known that a leaky guide seal was the culprit.

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Re: 1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild

Postby RodneyB » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:10 pm

Mh434 wrote:
RodneyB wrote:... I am a bit puzzled about is that since the heads are horizontal,how is it that the oil seeps past the valve seals anyway? Is the very little amount that could pass,be enough to make a good cloud of smoke to where I fear the neighbors might think my shop is on fire,but then just go away and run great afterward? Again,the bike did smoke for just a few seconds before,but not like this :?


That's EXACTLY how leaky valve guide seals react in a 'Wing engine, particularly if it's been left on sidestand (more oil pools between the valve cover & head on the low side of the engine). Even the tiniest gap (we're talking 1/1000's of an inch here) will let the oil slip past, and a fair bit can collect in whatever cylinder's exhaust valve is open while the bike is parked. In the Porsche engine I mentioned, when I started it up, it made large clouds of blue smoke - enough to look like a fog bank moving across to the neighbor's property :shock: Strangely enough, after several months of this, the seal popped back into place itself & the oil burning suddenly stopped (that, I'm sure, is a very uncommon occurrence...).

BTW - the '81 GL1100 I had would often smoke badly on start up, if I left it parked on the side stand. In that case, it was known that a leaky guide seal was the culprit.



I never leave it on its side stand. I'm beginning to lean toward my after market seals...?
I even leaned it one way and back the other then put it on its center stand and it still smokes like a chimney the first start of the day... :?

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Re: 1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild

Postby RodneyB » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:13 pm

brentsboats wrote:NOT to worry ,it will get better with time ,, i rebuilt my1100 a few years ago ,,did the same thing and then cleared up.. no worries as long as you did it right .



How long did it take before it went away? I am sure i did everything correct. Its not my first walk in the park with mechanical issues.(first wing head job) I have a book and did everything to specs. :?

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Re: 1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild

Postby Mh434 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:01 pm

Hmmm. Trying to get down to basics, there's only 3 ways that come to mind for oil to get into the cylinders. First is from the top end down via the seals, second is from the bottom up via the oil control rings (unlikely), and third is via the intake tract, such as a bad PCV valve, forcing oil in by crankcase pressure...do these engines even have PCV valves? One of these is the culprit.

If the seals are aftermarket, they'd still be my first guess. Best of luck!

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Re: 1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild

Postby RodneyB » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:47 pm

Mh434 wrote:Hmmm. Trying to get down to basics, there's only 3 ways that come to mind for oil to get into the cylinders. First is from the top end down via the seals, second is from the bottom up via the oil control rings (unlikely), and third is via the intake tract, such as a bad PCV valve, forcing oil in by crankcase pressure...do these engines even have PCV valves? One of these is the culprit.

If the seals are aftermarket, they'd still be my first guess. Best of luck!



I think you may be right. I found a set of 8 brand new Honda OEM seals part #
12209-300-003 on ebay for $17.98 shipped to my door. I think for an afternoon doing what I enjoy,and the price(WOW :o ),I'll just replace them and go from there. If it turns out they were the Athena Aftermarket Seals at fault,I'll be sure to post about them to warn others. Thanks EVERYONE for the help!! And thanks for wishing me good luck,I'll need it ;)

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Re: 1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild

Postby Johnyy Smoke » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:26 pm

[What exactly would be a result if i were to have maybe got one misplaced and not seated correctly?
I have put about 50 or more miles on the bike. No water in the oil or oil in the water....[/quote] It will smoke, I had no problems with my Athena kit, so I doubt if that's the problem .Regards, Johnny

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Re: 1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild

Postby f1xrupr » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:55 pm

Did you use the same type engine oil as before?....long shot....
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Re: 1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild

Postby RodneyB » Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:25 pm

f1xrupr wrote:Did you use the same type engine oil as before?....long shot....



I am not sure what was used in it as I picked it up as a project. I am using 10-40

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Re: 1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild

Postby Johnyy Smoke » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:13 pm

10 w 40. Make sure valve seals are properly placed and check above mentioned O- rings.
If it smoked before and know it smokes even more, this tells me it is most likely something you installed improperly or simply overlooked. Be sure to retorque the heads after a all night cool down.
Go slow and be thorough, you will be successful ! Regards, Johnny

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Re: 1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild

Postby RodneyB » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:31 pm

brentsboats wrote:NOT to worry ,it will get better with time ,, i rebuilt my1100 a few years ago ,,did the same thing and then cleared up.. no worries as long as you did it right .



WOW! I took my bike down the freeway yesterday at about 80mph for a good 30 minutes and low and behold,the darn thing has almost stopped smoking. I fired it up this morning and it smoked just for a little bit(nothing like it was) The Oil is up,and just like you said brentsboats,all it took was a little time for everything to seat i guess....? The morning before that i thought it seemed like it might have slowed down a bit but didn't put a lot of thought into it...lol! I'll ride it a bit today and see what comes tomorrow...hope You are right and i think you just might be! This was the first time since i put it back together I didn't fog the neighborhood out!

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Re: 1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild

Postby WingAdmin » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:43 pm

Incidentally, if you want to fog the neighborhood...to clean out the throttle body of a car (or in this case my 1993 Explorer), one method is to pull a vacuum line off of somewhere, fit a funnel into it, and while holding the throttle open to rev the engine to around 3500 or 4000 rpm, slowly pour a whole bottle of Seafoam into the funnel.

This does a fantastic job of cleaning out the intake system of the engine. It also does a fantastic job of emitting an absolutely immense white smoke cloud from the exhaust, that will tower a good hundred feet and be able to be seen from miles away. It's quite amazing!





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Re: 1980 GL1100 Smokes after head rebuild

Postby Mh434 » Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:29 am

I recall an old-time racing mechanic doing something similar back in the '70's, except he used...brake fluid.

He slowly poured an ounce or two down the carb throat of a running engine, with the back end of the car facing the street. Literally, two entire blocks were obliterated by the thick, white smoke, for about 10 minutes. The reason for doing it was because the engine (an MGB 1800 cc) was badly carboned up, so bad you could see it through the spark plug holes with a mirror & flashlight. In the end, it turned out it had a burnt exhaust valve, so the head had to come off anyway. When we got it off, we found that the combustion chambers, valve faces, etc. were absolutely clean & shiny. The brake fluid worked!




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