another failed wheel bearing


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roadwanderer2
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another failed wheel bearing

Postby roadwanderer2 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:15 am



well, here we go again.

as i was pulling out of my driveway this past Friday and started riding my bike down the road, the rear wheel started making noise and the back of the bike started to wobble. fortunately for me i wasn't going very fast so i was able to keep the bike under control. i managed to get the bike back into my garage. i removed the rear wheel and what i found to my surprise was the wheel bearing broke apart :o :twisted:. i don't know how or why, but im starting to think that maybe im not supposed to take this bike down to Florida this year. maybe its an "omen" telling me i shouldn't go. anyway, i ordered new wheel bearings, dust seal and "O" ring from partzilla and im taking the wheel to the bike shop and having them replace everything, along with another tube full of moly 77 paste which i'll put in once i get the wheel back before i put it back onto the bike. hopefully all the parts will be here by this coming Monday or Tuesday and i'll still get the bike fixed and back together in time for me to still make my run down to the Florida keys on the 3rd of next month. I've taken this wheel off this bike so many times in the last couple of weeks i should be able to do it in my sleep lol.

is there a chance that something is else causing these wheel bearings to fail like this? i don't understand it. i installed everything properly, all the nuts and bolts are torqued down to their specs, nothing is loose to make the wheel move out of alignment and yet this is the 2nd set of rear wheel bearings to go bad. i was assured from the PO that the bearings in this wheel i bought were new.

stuart.



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maintainer
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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby maintainer » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:35 am

Never had a dry, noisy, or failing wheel bearing on any of my bikes.

Curiosity Question: Do you wash your bike at an high pressure car wash or with an pressure washer?
1982 GL 1100 Interstate SOLD
1977 GL 1000 Standard (naked can be good, who knew?)

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby roadwanderer2 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:09 pm

hey maintainer:

no never. i always wash my bike at home with my garden hose and dry everything completely. now im in a real jam. i put the bike back together and tried to "limp" it to the bike shop that's about 4 miles from me, and when i got there yesterday, they were closed, so i brought the bike back home. today as im trying to take everything back apart, and the axle is now frozen to the bearing. it wont budge.

I've tried using a small hammer, my air chisel and a 20lb sledge hammer to get the axle bolt out and it wont move. short of removing the swing arm im just going to take my reciprocating and cut the axle out from both sides of the wheel hub and replace axle, the entire final drive and new wheel bearings. im getting very frustrated, annoyed and just plain tired of busting my a** with this thing.

stuart.

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby maintainer » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:46 pm

Rule 1: Get a bigger hammer. (Joking) :P

Rule 2: If something is frozen or stuck, use intense heat like a torch. The expansion contraction thing works.


Seriously, I don't know if heat is going to help this situation. Sounds like a real bear, good luck.
1982 GL 1100 Interstate SOLD
1977 GL 1000 Standard (naked can be good, who knew?)

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby roadwanderer2 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:56 pm

hey, if a air hammer and a 20lb sledge hammer isn't working, i have no other option. believe me, i've already thought about using a torch, but heat isn't going to help this because the the axle is frozen behind the final drive either on the spline side or on the rotor side. in any event, i just got back from Lowe's with a pack of heavy duty steel sawzall cutting blades and one way or another, this bolt WILL come out, TRUST ME. i've already used my angle grinder to grind down the 3 final drive studs to see if i couldn't pry it back far enough to let the drive swing down to get that off and i can't get it back far enough to get it to drop down, and i don't have the tools to remove the swing arm, so this is the only other way.

stuart.

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby roadwanderer2 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:49 pm

well, i finally managed to get the rear wheel off of the swing arm. i had to cut the axle bolt off just in front of the sleeve that sits between the caliper bracket and the pinch bolt on the left side. i tried to turn the axle as its still stuck in the wheel hub and it wont turn. again i tried using my sledge hammer and air hammer to punch it out from the spline side and it won't budge. although the final drive didn't get any damage while i was trying to pry it out, im still going to replace it. i cant use this wheel either since everything is frozen to it,(axle, bearings and even the rear caliper bracket because the spacer is also stuck to the axle bolt), so i cant remove the bracket. so everything, the final drive, caliper bracket, bearings and wheel has to be replaced :twisted:.

stuart.

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby HawkeyeGL1200 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:07 am

I know some of what I write won't help much or provide any ease your frustration, but...

It is highly irregular to have multiple ball bearing failures in the same location/application unless there stresses at work that lead to the failure. Since these are sealed or shielded (sealed, I think) bearings, we can probably eliminate lack or or wrong lubrication as a factor. I suspect that there is or was a clearance issue.. like maybe the "distance spacer" (Item #5 on the parts drawing of the rear axle assembly) was too short in length, allowing the bearings to be side loaded too heavily under load (when you torqued the axle nut). Lateral loading of single-row ball bearings is not good, as the bearings aren't designed to deal with "thrust" loading (lateral or axial direction). They're designed to take radial load, and they do a great job of that.

When you put your new wheel assembly together, one thing you can check is the distance spacer should be snug inside the bearing(s) inner race and the outer races should be bottomed out in the wheel recess after tightening of the retainer (Item #1 on the parts diagram).

Anyway.. I am very sorry you have had these troubles. There is little more frustrating than to do good work on something, only to have it fail on you a short time later... I know.
I am wrong as often as I am right concerning what is wrong with someone else' motorcycle without having seen the machine in person. Guessing with limited information, as to the source of the trouble, is sketchy at best.

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roadwanderer2
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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby roadwanderer2 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:15 am

hey hawkeye,

when i put this wheel i have now back on the bike, everything was placed perfectly. the spacers were seated, the axle bolt was snugged down to specs, the pinch bolt tightened. the wheel rotated straight and true, in fact, when i had it all put back together, i did a 294 mile ride and the bike ran flawlessly. not a bit of trouble. a couple of days later i heard a "squeaking" sound coming from the back of the bike that i thought might be my trunk vibrating on its mounting brackets, so i didn't think anything about it. i tightened it down and the squeaking went away. a couple of days later the sound was back, only this time it was much louder. i got the bike home and took the rear wheel off only to find that the wheel bearings were scored and burned. when i tried to get the bike to the shop to have them pull it apart, that's when all hell broke loose. i could fee the rear wheel trying to lock up and the back of the bike started to wobble.

i have found someone that has an 83 aspencade that he's stripping down and he is going to sell me all the parts for it, the wheel, axle bolt, spacers, caliper bracket and the final drive, all for $150.00 the only thing i have to do is drive down to Atlanta GA to get them. he is also going to put the NEW wheel bearings that i have on order into the wheel for me. i cant think of any reason that this happened again in such a short time.

i've been rattling my brain trying to figure things out with it, twisted swing arm, air shocks not filled on one side or the other causing the bike to ride off center, axle nut backed off, pinch bolt loose, something, anything, but i cant come up with any answers. at this point, the axle is still stuck inside the wheel hub and will not come out. i had to use my sawzall to cut the axle and the 3 studs that hold the final drive to the swing arm to get the rear wheel off the swing arm and cut the spacer in front of the caliper bracket off with my die grinder. everything is ruined and nothing except for the tire can be salvaged. everything has to be replaced, so that's what im going to do, and once this bike is all back together again, im going to put it up for sale, asking price will be $2,500 OBO and go out and get a newer, (84-86) GL1200. with all the new stuff i have on it, $2,500 is a good price for it.

stuart.

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby HawkeyeGL1200 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:51 am

It's not out of the question for you to have received a bad bearing from whomever it was you bought them from. I bought all mine from "All Balls" on Ebay as "sets" with seals and I've never had a problem.. replaced front and rear on the 1200 and 1100 ... all bought from the same place.

I feel your pain. As a guy who has worked on machines that other people have broken, all my life, it's doubly frustrating to believe you've done everything right, only to have a premature failure with no explanation.. or in your case, the opportunity to do postmortem on the failed parts to figure out what happened.

I hope your new wheel assembly works out for you and I wish you best of luck with the 1200 should you buy it.
I am wrong as often as I am right concerning what is wrong with someone else' motorcycle without having seen the machine in person. Guessing with limited information, as to the source of the trouble, is sketchy at best.

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby roadwanderer2 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:34 am

thanks hawkeye, i appreciate your thoughts. yes, it is possible that the bearings in the wheel i bought were going bad. the NEW bearings i bought that are on their way to me are from parzilla and are direct honda OEM replacements using honda part numbers so they should be ok. there are a lot of 84-86 1200's out there and for reasonable prices too. when i sell my 1100, i should have no trouble finding the right one that has had most of the "normal" maintenance already done to it. the only thing i'd have to think about replacing are the timing belts and maybe tires.

stuart.

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby roadwanderer2 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:10 am

i just got my new wheel bearings for the rear wheel and i have a question to ask..........on these bearings, one side is sealed and the other side is open to where you can see the roller balls inside the roller cage. my question is this.......which side is supposed to face outward, the sealed side of the bearing or the open side of the bearing where you can see the roller balls or does it matter.

upon looking at the bearings that are still in the hub, the final drive side bearing is missing the cage that holds the balls in place leaving the balls to roll down to one spot inside the bearing. maybe the person that installed these bearings in this wheel i have now were installed incorrectly leading these bearings to premature failure? is this possible?

stuart.

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby HawkeyeGL1200 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:57 pm

I do not know how Honda would have you install those bearings, but I would set them so that the sealed side faces the (potential) dirt... so, I'd mount them seals facing outward.

I'm currently at work (yeah, I know... get back to it you bum) but when I get home, I'll have a look at my shop manual to see if Honda has some other end product in mind... Seems to me that once the spacer is installed between the bearings, there's a little room for some "extra" grease, and when I replaced bearings on the 1200, I slathered a little extra in there... not that they probably need it...

Remember that these are "relatively" slow speed bearing applications. I did the math once for a 30" truck tire and at 60 mph, the wheel only spins 800 or so RPMs... if my memory serves me correctly... also, there really isn't much load on a motorcycle bearing... my big butt, "half" the weight of the bike and some junk in the bags adds up to less than 600 pounds and that's insignificant for a ball bearing in most applications. I often wondered why tapered roller bearings weren't the bearing of choice... they'd have been my first choice if I had one...
I am wrong as often as I am right concerning what is wrong with someone else' motorcycle without having seen the machine in person. Guessing with limited information, as to the source of the trouble, is sketchy at best.

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby roadwanderer2 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:29 pm

well now see, that makes me wonder why, in both wheels the caliper bracket side bearing was facing sealed side outboard while the final drive side was facing sealed side inboard, and only one side has a "dust seal" and the other side has an "O"ring, but my manual says to put the bearings in sealed side out. i even went and called mother honda and they also said these bearings should be installed with the sealed side out. before i install these bearings into the hub, im going to put some moly paste on them then install them. hopefully this will be my last "go-round" with this problem. now the question is, why would original set of bearings last for 105,000 and another set that was supposed to be new last only a couple of weeks when both sets of bearings were installed the same way, sealed side out on one side,(caliper side), and bearings side out on the final drive side.

stuart.

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby HawkeyeGL1200 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:09 pm

I would NOT use moly paste on the bearings. The best grease I've ever used in ball bearings is a Chevron product called SRI-2 grease. It is an "EP" grease, meaning it is designed for "extreme pressure" and it works great in ball bearings... if you don't like that idea, pack them with good quality wheel bearing grease... the bearings should be packed full, and the "void" between them should be 1/2 to 2/3rds full of grease... no more than that, as the grease needs a place to migrate into as it heats up (some)... Many a perfectly good bearing has been ruined by the installer using too much grease. In fact, it's probably better to err on the side of too little than it is to use too much.
I am wrong as often as I am right concerning what is wrong with someone else' motorcycle without having seen the machine in person. Guessing with limited information, as to the source of the trouble, is sketchy at best.

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby roadwanderer2 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:15 pm

ok, thanks for this info. i have 4 local parts store in my neighborhood, im sure one of them has this particular type of bearing grease and get a small container or tube of it.

stuart.

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby wingman12 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:15 pm

Good afternoon roadwanderer, I was curious about the dust seal on your front end so I went to the Honda parts site http://www.hondapartshouse.com/oemparts/c/honda/parts see this link, it shows 2 dust seals, one on each side of the wheel.
I would also use a good quality high temp lithium bearing grease vs the molly.

My only thought on the premature failure of the newer bearings is perhaps in the installation process to much pressure was put on the inner race on the bearing and caused premature wear??? I think you were right that your wing is trying its best to tell you that you should not go to FLA this year. :D :D

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby roadwanderer2 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:48 pm

wingman12 wrote:Good afternoon roadwanderer, I was curious about the dust seal on your front end so I went to the Honda parts site http://www.hondapartshouse.com/oemparts/c/honda/parts see this link, it shows 2 dust seals, one on each side of the wheel.
I would also use a good quality high temp lithium bearing grease vs the molly.

My only thought on the premature failure of the newer bearings is perhaps in the installation process to much pressure was put on the inner race on the bearing and caused premature wear??? I think you were right that your wing is trying its best to tell you that you should not go to FLA this year. :D :D


hello wingman, this isn't the front wheel that is in question, its the rear wheel that is giving me all this trouble. the front wheel bearings were installed last year by an authorized honda motorcycle dealership before i did my ride down to Florida last June 2014. for some reason the rear wheel only takes one dust seal while the other side of the hub takes an "O" ring. as per my repair manual AND mother honda, BOTH wheel bearings are supposed to be installed with the sealed side of the bearings facing outward, but in my previous posting, i mentioned that on the original and the replacement wheel, the final drive side bearing was installed with the sealed side inboard instead of outboard. it is also unlikely but possible that the axle nut could have untourqued itself causing the wheel to rotate a little off balance putting more stress on the bearing than it should have, although i never really noticed or felt anything that would have lead to this happening. its definitely a mystery.

stuart.

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby wingman12 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:55 pm

sorry I misread one of your threads. I did notice tho that it seems the 1983 takes a different type of wheel bearings, one side sealed and the other open, I have not seem that in a wheel bearing before, but I have only worked of a couple of Suzuki's, 82 interstate and my 99 SE all of these we sealed on both sides. :D :D

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby wingman12 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:04 pm

ok I see what you are talking about, the "o" ring is for the inside of your final drive flange which seats into your final drive and is sealed from any outside dust or moisture getting in by the final drive seal around it. The dust seal is on the brake caliper side where moisture and dust could get in without a dust seal. I for the life of me would never put an open faced bearing facing out to get contaminated with dust and moisture. always in well packed with high temp bearing grease. :D :D

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby roadwanderer2 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:36 pm

hey wingman, both of these new wheel bearings are sealed on one side and open on the other side, but your correct with the placement of the "O"ring on the flange side and the dust seal on the caliper side, but what i don't understand is, why in both wheels, (my original and the replacement wheel) were the bearings on the flange side put in open side out instead of the sealed side out, and why did the original bearing last 105,00 and the new the ones,(that was supposed to be new), last only a couple of weeks as they were installed the same way the original bearings were. like i said before, the only thing i can think of is the axle nut backed off a little causing excess load on the flange side bearing. this also could have happened when i removed the original wheel to put my new tire on it. when i get this wheel back together and put it back onto the bike, im going to also get a new axle nut and torque it down to specs once again and check it in about a week to make sure it didn't back off.

stuart.

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby wingman12 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:01 pm

Hi Stuart, I can give you an honest answer as to why such premature bearing failure. I don't envey your frustration over this problem. I went and checked bike bandit parts site and they have wheel bearings and dust seals that are for your bike, these bearings are sealed on both sides so you don't have to worry about which side is out. The bearings and dust seal was around $17.00 plus shipping . Might be worth checking out?? :D :D

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby roadwanderer2 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:30 am

'mornin wingman.

i wish i had known about that sooner because its too late now. i already have the new parts here :(. i just looked on their site, and their bearings are priced $3.00 more on each bearing than partzilla which is where i bought these from, but its too late, i cant return them. i'll just install these sealed side out, but i thank you for taking the time to look them up for me, i appreciate the effort. on the 3rd of next month i drive to Atlanta GA to get the rest of my parts. i found someone from craigslist that has an 83 that he's parting out and he's willing sell me the rear wheel, axle, spacers, caliper bracket, and the final drive and is also going to put these new bearings into the wheel for me as he has a bearing press all for only $150.00.

stuart.

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby wingman12 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:26 am

You can't beat that deal. Have a safe trip. :D :D

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby roadwanderer2 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:51 am

yeah, its a good deal just as long as the parts are good. hope i don't make this drive all the way down there and the parts are junk. i'll be slightly "aggravated" so to speak. shame i have to use the wife's cager instead of being able to ride my bike down there.

stuart.

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Re: another failed wheel bearing

Postby HawkeyeGL1200 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:01 am

The person who installed the (currently) wrecked bearings, could have ruined them when they were installed, as Wingman suggested. Bearings that "fit" into a recess corresponding with the outer diameter should be "pressed" with the force applied to the outer race. Same goes for bearings that fit on the inside of the inner race. In cases where a bearing fits snugly on a shaft, a small amount of heat (180-220 degrees F) is generally all that is necessary to get them to "drop" on a shaft. You can also put the in a freezer if they have to fit an inside bore to make that installation easier.

One of the most likely scenarios might be that they were beat into the recess by hitting the inner race... a common error when installing bearings... If a person HAS to use a hammer to get them in place, they should at least find socket or piece of pipe that closely matches the "fit" diameter (inside or outside) and then TAP squarely to get the race to bottom out.

Loosening of the axel nut is an improbably cause of the failure. The bearings would be capable of "wandering" laterally, but the loosening would have actually reduced the thrust load on the bearings, not increased it, which may have made a "squishy" feeling ride... like a tire low on air pressure, but I can't figure how a reduction in lateral loading would cause a bearing failure.

Of course, there's also the possibility that the installer allowed foreign material (like he packed the bearings with dirty hands or the like) into either the grease, the bearing recess or the final drive side had some trash in it that worked its way into the bearings.

Years ago, while attending a "bearing" training seminar, the speaker showed us that foreign material as small as the diameter of a human hair (0.004") can ruin a bearing in just a few revolutions. There are a million reasons why a bearing can fail. That's why I am very picky about how clean a bearing housing or recess is, how clean my hands and tools are when installing bearings, and I'm an absolute maniac about CLEAN grease of the correct type... and of course the correct amount of that grease.

When a bearing fails as badly as yours have, you rarely get the answers as to the why of the failure. We don't have the resources necessary to do an adequate failure analysis... it isn't like we own a NASCAR team or something... so, the next best thing is to try to learn something from a bad situation so as not to repeat the failures of others before us.

I think I have some information on bearings around here somewhere... probably in .pdf or other format... if I find it, I'll offer it (FREE!!) to anyone interested enough to want it...


I am wrong as often as I am right concerning what is wrong with someone else' motorcycle without having seen the machine in person. Guessing with limited information, as to the source of the trouble, is sketchy at best.


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