is it possible to ??


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knockdolian
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is it possible to ??

Postby knockdolian » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:53 pm



Hi all, Ive re commissioned my gl1100 after the head gasket went about 6 years ago. Ive put new head gaskets on and while I was at it cleaned everything up and painted the engine. looks sweet. Now what I should have done was to split the case and renewed the rings but I didn't. I have since found rings for a good price and think I should replace them. Honda head gaskets are very expensive in uk about $150 a pair. As there are people on this forum who pull these engines apart in there sleep my question is, Would it be possible to change the rings without taking the heads off ? sounds like a stupid question but looking at the strip down in the book it looks doable
Id appreciate your thoughts
Thanks



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virgilmobile
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Re: is it possible to ??

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:06 pm

I suppose one could,however,what about honing the cylinder so the new rings will seat properly.Kind tough without pulling the heads off.Im not saying impossible tho.Ive just never done it.

knockdolian
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Re: is it possible to ??

Postby knockdolian » Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:24 pm

virgilmobile wrote:I suppose one could,however,what about honing the cylinder so the new rings will seat properly.Kind tough without pulling the heads off.Im not saying impossible tho.Ive just never done it.


Thought about honing. all valves would be closed. With the crank out of the way plenty of lub and rag. I think it would be do able. If it all went horribly wrong its heads off. Just wondered while thinking about it if anyone had done it before. Everything seems to be so much cheaper in the US so im thinking you lot probably wouldn't worry about new gaskets. I just hate the thought of renewing brand new gaskets :oops:

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virgilmobile
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Re: is it possible to ??

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:58 pm

Have you done a compression test(wet/dry) after you refreshed the heads?
Just wondering if there's a real need for rings.

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Re: is it possible to ??

Postby knockdolian » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:55 am

virgilmobile wrote:Have you done a compression test(wet/dry) after you refreshed the heads?
Just wondering if there's a real need for rings.

Yes, done a C test and all coming up low. When the head gasket went about 5 years ago engine was fine which is why I didn't split the cases. Bike now smokes bad both sides so I'm thinking stuck rings. New valve stems fitted. Wasn't sure about a wet test with flat bores ? I plan to give the bike some miles see if it improves. Any adatives that may release the rings. Tried sea foam

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Re: is it possible to ??

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:14 am

There is a slurry that I've used.
50% ATF 50% Acetone.Lay the bike on one side.Pull the upper plugs.Pour 2 tablespoons in each cylinder.Put the plugs back in loosely.Let it set for 2 days.
Do the same for the other side.
Don't start the engine yet.
Drain and replace the engine oil.
Some remove the exhaust headers to flush any excess slurry out instead of into the exhaust.Reassemble and test run.

Keep in mind.This will not grow new rings but may free ones that are stuck in there grooves.
My 83 with close to 200k miles was just worn out.compression from 85-110 psi.I did re-ring it.The end gap on the original rings measured around 1/4" or 10mm.The new ones had to be hand fitted for each cylinder for proper end gap.

knockdolian
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Re: is it possible to ??

Postby knockdolian » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:26 pm

virgilmobile wrote:There is a slurry that I've used.
50% ATF 50% Acetone.Lay the bike on one side.Pull the upper plugs.Pour 2 tablespoons in each cylinder.Put the plugs back in loosely.Let it set for 2 days.
Do the same for the other side.
Don't start the engine yet.
Drain and replace the engine oil.
Some remove the exhaust headers to flush any excess slurry out instead of into the exhaust.Reassemble and test run.

Keep in mind.This will not grow new rings but may free ones that are stuck in there grooves.
My 83 with close to 200k miles was just worn out.compression from 85-110 psi.I did re-ring it.The end gap on the original rings measured around 1/4" or 10mm.The new ones had to be hand fitted for each cylinder for proper end gap.


Thanks, got to be easier than pulling the engine apart. Im waiting on a carb rebuild kit to sort the knock then Ill give it a go. Acetone that's nail varnish remover right ???

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Re: is it possible to ??

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:11 pm

Yes.Just be sure its 100% acetone.

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Re: is it possible to ??

Postby RBGERSON » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:00 am

Order head gaskets head $88 for two and have one of us ship them to you so total probably under a $100, I'd do it for you..if you use Western Honda online order with local pick up I live close to them.
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knockdolian
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Re: is it possible to ??

Postby knockdolian » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:09 pm

RBGERSON wrote:Order head gaskets head $88 for two and have one of us ship them to you so total probably under a $100, I'd do it for you..if you use Western Honda online order with local pick up I live close to them.


Thanks very much for the offer. Its still £65 plus tax when it gets here. Ill try everything else first and if I have to change the rings then the case has to be split anyway. If all else fails I will take you up on your offer but Im hoping I don't have to.
Cheers
Paul

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Re: is it possible to ??

Postby Old Fogey » Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:10 pm

You can split the cases with only removing the left head, but you still can't get at the rings on the right side. The right hand bores are 'blind' due to the way the crankshaft is mounted. So no, you can't hone them from the bottom either.
These engines are notorious for the rings sticking due to being left sitting. Usually they will free themselves off once you get it running and put some miles on it.
Do the acetone/ATF thing first, as virgilmobile suggested, fresh oil and go and beat the bejasus out of it. Unless your engine is in the 80,000up ballpark, I suggest that it is unlikely to really need re-ringing.
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Re: is it possible to ??

Postby knockdolian » Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:30 pm

Thanks for the advice. Ill give it a go

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Re: is it possible to ??

Postby f1xrupr » Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:57 am

I have been completely through my 1980-it had 152xxx miles on it, and the rings were still within ~ tolerance.
There are lots of myths about rings out there, but I'll spare you for the time being-I will say this..."if you purchase any other rings instead of real goldwing rings, you are going to be disappointed-factory rings are absolutely superior in dimension and quality.
Imho, your rings are in perfect condition....stuck?....maybe.
Did you leave coolant in your cylinders for six years?.....or did you pour lubricant into your cylinders from time to time, and, that collected in your exhaust, and is now smoking?....or....
My exercise bike is a goldwing.

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Re: is it possible to ??

Postby f1xrupr » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:06 am

......or, did you accidentally spill solvent or lubricant into headers during head gasket replacement, that is causing smoke?
It is critical, that heads be "re-tourqued" after one heat cycle (of gentle operation)!!!
I have seen aftermarket head gaskets go from 40 ft lbs (standard torque value for that engine), to 20 ft lbs, because of not re-tourquing, and blow a brand new gasket!...and guess who's bike it was?....mine!!!! And then, after the gasket is blown, re-tourqing won't help-gasket is ruined!
Also, resurfacing the head surface is a must, for a quality job. Something as simple as a thick piece of plate glass, and a sheet of sand paper works great. "Looking at the surface real good" don't help any. Not only does resurfacing true the flang, it also helps to grip the gasket.
If the o-rings (2) at the oil orifice are not correctly present, if the gasket is re-blown, can also smoke.
Although your bike sat for six years (as did mine), except your cylinders were contaminated, I doubt your rings are stuck.
Cylinder honing can not be properly done on any engine with the head still attached, with hand tools. If the rings are wore, then there is a ridge in the top of the cylinder that must be removed before honing can be done. Otherwise, the stone will ride the ridge, and cause a deep spot in the cylinder at the other end of the stone, and the stone will not touch the cylinder just beneath the ridge. That does more harm than good.
The hidden case-bolt under one head, and the pistons only being able to come out from the "top of the cylinder" on the other side, has already been (at least indirectly) mentioned, there by concluding the "impossibilities" of such a repair without removing the heads (that was from memory-hope I got that right).
I strongly suggest, that you leave separating the case as a extreme last resort....
After proper head gasket replacement, prolonged normal driving will potentially clear up the smoke.
If you would like me to elaborate on "ring myths", I would be glad too...
My exercise bike is a goldwing.

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Re: is it possible to ??

Postby knockdolian » Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:49 pm

WOW, f1xrupr that is a pretty comprehensive reply. To answer some of your points. I left the coolant in and no, I didn't put oil in the pots. I never expected to leave the bike so long and was always going to get to it. I have other bikes and am not unfamiliar with the tool box. I agree with everything you say. I have two sets of head after market gaskets but was advised to go Honda. The bike has 18K on the clock. That could be 18K or 118K. When I took the heads off the boars were good with no lip (wear) at the top. This was the main reason for not going further on the strip. The heads were checked for being flat. I take on board your point about re torqueing the heads. The head gasket went after I left the bike ticking over and the fan failed to kick in. The bike stopped and when I went to start it, it had locked up. Once cool it started up and ran fine. I only knew there was anything wrong was a small pool of coolant under the exhaust joint when parked up.
My only experience with stuck rings was with an MGB GT where the rings were PROPPER stuck. After heating, boiling in vinegar, lemon juice and coke. Nothing. Ended up chiselling them out a bit at a time. Ill get the bike finished and get it on the road before I do anything more drastic. Thanks to all for all the advice
Paul
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Re: is it possible to ??

Postby Old Fogey » Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:16 pm

f1xrupr wrote: It is critical, that heads be "re-tourqued" after one heat cycle (of gentle operation)!!!
I have seen aftermarket head gaskets go from 40 ft lbs (standard torque value for that engine), to 20 ft lbs, because of not re-tourquing, and blow a brand new gasket!...and guess who's bike it was?....mine!!!! And then, after the gasket is blown, re-tourqing won't help-gasket is ruined!
Can't agree with that. Nowhere will you find re-torquing in any Honda manual. Torque was increased to 45ft/lbs in a factory bulletin back in (I think) '78 . I use aftermarket (Athena) head gaskets in all my rebuilds, never re-do them and never have a problem.The critical thing is to use Moly grease on the threads and under the heads of the bolts, otherwise you will get a false torque reading.

Also, resurfacing the head surface is a must, for a quality job. Something as simple as a thick piece of plate glass, and a sheet of sand paper works great. "Looking at the surface real good" don't help any. Not only does resurfacing true the flang, it also helps to grip the gasket.
That's good advice
If the o-rings (2) at the oil orifice are not correctly present, if the gasket is re-blown, can also smoke.
Although your bike sat for six years (as did mine), except your cylinders were contaminated, I doubt your rings are stuck.

Cylinder honing can not be properly done on any engine with the head still attached, with hand tools. If the rings are wore, then there is a ridge in the top of the cylinder that must be removed before honing can be done. Otherwise, the stone will ride the ridge, and cause a deep spot in the cylinder at the other end of the stone, and the stone will not touch the cylinder just If the cylinders are so worn as to have a ridge, that needs to be removed before you can get the #1 and #3 pistons out.

The hidden case-bolt under one head, and the pistons only being able to come out from the "top of the cylinder" on the other side, has already been (at least indirectly) mentioned, there by concluding the "impossibilities" of such a repair without removing the heads (that was from memory-hope I got that right).
The left hand head has the case bolt under it. The cases will split with the right hand head attached. The left pistons come out of the bottom of the bores, the right out of the top.

I strongly suggest, that you leave separating the case as a extreme last resort....
Absolutely the best advice yet!But if you do decide to ignore all this and go for it, I keep rings in stock.

After proper head gasket replacement, prolonged normal driving will potentially clear up the smoke.
If you would like me to elaborate on "ring myths", I would be glad too...
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Re: is it possible to ??

Postby f1xrupr » Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:23 pm

Overheated until locked? Sounds like a tare down...
My exercise bike is a goldwing.

knockdolian
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Re: is it possible to ??

Postby knockdolian » Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:31 pm

f1xrupr wrote:Overheated until locked? Sounds like a tare down...

Hope not. As I said it was just on tick over and started and ran fine until I noticed the coolant leak.

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Re: is it possible to ??

Postby f1xrupr » Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:44 pm

It does seem like if it hada wiped a piston, you would have seen something.....IDK....


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