GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump


Information and questions on GL1100 Goldwings (1980-1983)
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David2953
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GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby David2953 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:56 pm



I've rebuilt many GL1100 carbs for customers over the past few years. I do motorcycle repair full-time in my home garage. I always make the accelerator pumps squirt gas into all 4 carbs. The high price of the diaphragms and the delay in getting parts has often made me wonder how some bikes would perform without that system working. I do not want to experiment with someone else's bike.

I just bought my first Goldwing, a 1982 GL1100 with 24,750 miles. I spent 20 hours fixing it up and it's going to be a great bike. I had to rebuild the carbs. Someone had already done them part-way and they were very botched-up, but there was a new accelerator pump diaphragm already installed. The pump would not pump because the one-way valve in the float bowl was not closing. It's a pressed-in part and I think I would have had to replace the float bowl to fix it. I decided not to fix it, just disable it. I wanted to see how the engine would run without the accelerator pump working at all. I removed the pivot bolt for the lever that pushes on the diaphragm rod and I removed the linkage rod and spring along with it. A bolt had to be put back in to hold the fuel hose spigot. I left the diaphragm in place, but it would never be activated. The rest of the carburetors were stock, except the pilot jets were .0004" oversize, so they were like #36 instead of #35. I put the carbs on the bike and connected fuel and vacuum gauges like I always do. I started the engine and syncronized the throttles and adjusted the idle speed and idle mixture. I had started with 3 turns on the pilots, but ended-up with 2 turns. I can adjust them easily with a 90-degree bevel-gear screwdriver made by Motionpro. It ran fine in the garage. I took it for a test ride and throttle response was good. I could not find any hesitation like you might expect from disabling the accelerator pump. I concluded that GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump. I do not see why Honda put them in.



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jeffcosmo
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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby jeffcosmo » Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:45 pm

Here's where I have trouble with changes like this to an otherwise stock motorcycle.

I, myself, do not feel like I know more than the engineers who designed the motorcycle.

And, having just (yesterday) taken off the carburettors of my own GL1100A for cleaning, I would definitely NOT want to have to re-do this job, as it is a pig of a job to get the rack out.
I will not conjecture on the reasons behind installation of said pump, only to observe that said pump is a feature of many large displacement motorcycle carburettors. Engineers get paid a lot of money to design these bikes to do a whole host of jobs, in a wide range of conditions. The accountants, OTOH, get paid another lot of money to make sure things do not get out of hand, budget-wise. Given the two, if said pump was not absolutely necessary, I cannot see it being included.

Just my two cents worth.

Cosmo

David2953
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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby David2953 » Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:37 pm

Oh come on, it's 2016! The engineering decisions made in 1982 do not mean much today. They had different marketing priorities than today. It's my bike and I will change it any way that I want. The accelerator pumps just waste gas. Back then, they must have thought a little acceleration was more important. I disagree.

Yesterday I calculated the mileage after the first tank of gas that I ran through my wing and it only got 33 miles per gallon. That was with no accelerator pump. It would have been worse with it. Well, that was not acceptable to me, so I set about the task of leaning my midrange. About two years ago I had great success with a similar mod on my 1983 Magna V65. I dropped those needles .063" and the mileage changed from 34 to 46. In June I took it from Minnesota through the Smoky Mountains of Tennessee and North Carolina and I kept track of mileage all the way. I got 48.7, but that's inflated because of the radial front tire that is smaller than stock and affects the odometer. With the stock tire it would have been more like 46.

Similarly to the Magna, the midrange on the Goldwing was not designed to be adjustable. Being a machinist, I was able to modify the throttle slides to allow me to move the needles down. I moved them down .048" and the bike still performs very well. Similarly to the Magna, it made it a little more cold-blooded and it takes a few more degrees of throttle rotation to get the same acceleration as before, but it's still got it. I don't yet have the mileage result, but I know it will be much better. I'll post it after the next tank fill-up.

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mytown
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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby mytown » Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:06 am

David2953 wrote:The pump would not pump because the one-way valve in the float bowl was not closing. It's a pressed-in part and I think I would have had to replace the float bowl to fix it. I decided not to fix it, just disable it. It ran fine in the garage. I took it for a test ride and throttle response was good. I could not find any hesitation like you might expect from disabling the accelerator pump. I concluded that GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump. I do not see why Honda put them in.

First time owner lacks part to put bike together and because it didn't hesitate during a test ride (and without making any comparisons :shock: ) concludes that "hey, the bike never needed that part and in fact runs better without it!" And then he announces his discovery to the world! C'mon, Man!

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ekvh
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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby ekvh » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:26 am

In some places, bikes have to be nearly stock to pass inspection. Do a mod to improve the bike and you fail. When I asked about bigger forks or bigger brakes on a bike, the response I got was, "We're not supposed to think." Well there's the problem.

Reality is the engineers who design bikes may be smart and know what's best for the bike. But I have met too many engineers with their diplomas who do not have a clue about real world workings, not just motorcycles. That said, I've met tons of mechanics with far more brains and overall understanding of form and function with no degree.

Technology improves faster if people are encouraged to try things. If the only people in the world who are allowed to experiment are the manufacturers, we'll be stuck with the same old junk.

Don't feel this is right for you? Don't do it. Here's a guy who has brought a potential $130-$150 savings to a carb rebuild. We're going to shout him down without trying it?? Think outside the box. I hope a few others try it.

He's basically using them like the 75-79carbs. The knock they had was poor off-idle response and most likely that was Mother Honda's reason for the accelerator pumps. I'm sure they could have done what most early model riders do with the carbs and downsize the air jet to improve response. If it weren't for EPA regs, Honda probably would have done that rather than the expensive design of the 1100 carbs.

David, hope you'll keep posting your mods including things to improve mileage.

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dingdong
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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby dingdong » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:55 am

Thinking and doing outside the box is a good thing. However I would change the title to read "My Gl1100 works well without the acc. pump". It will take more than one experience to convince me that All Gl1100s do not need the accelerator pump as the title leads one to believe.
Tom

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

David2953
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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby David2953 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:02 am

No, I did not say that it ran better. That is a lie. I did say it still has the same power on the road. It was not missing any parts, one of the one-way valves didn't work. I am right. I've tested many GL1100s with their accelerator pumps working after I rebuilt their carbs and they didn't go any better than mine without the pump. None of them need that pump.

Now on my jet needle mod that could also benefit all GL1100s: I machined the throttle slide counterbores deeper and I positioned the jet needles .048" down from standard to lean-out the midrange. This is the same as moving the little clip to a different groove on older model bikes that had that type of needles. And, I've done that on lots of bikes through the years, both down and up.

I ran a second tank of gas through and got 42 MPG on my 82 GL1100. That's a lot better than 33. And, it was normal riding with over half being 70mph freeway time. It still goes fine. I just have to rotate my throttle a little further to get the same response as before. It's a sacrifice I'm more than willing to make to have 30% better fuel economy. I'll call it my fuel-miser light-wing, since I'm also trying to keep it light by not mounting heavy steel parts and huge storage spaces that I don't need. I'm going to keep it a motorcycle.

I may go a little further with the mod. It's still not very cold-blooded. This will save me time and money on my next 4000-mile trip. I'll make fewer gas stops and I'll buy less gas. I'll also have more peace-of-mind when wondering how far the next gas station will be. But first, I'm working on mounting some light saddlebags and a GPS.

indianakid
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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby indianakid » Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:42 pm

hi David,

I applaud your efforts. In her defense Mother Honda had a lot more requirements to meet than you (or I) have in your garage. I would think that another mod you could do to increase fuel mileage is to defeat the idle air cut off valve. That valve was added to enrich-en the idle mixture on deceleration (ie every time the throttle is closed such as when shifting) to eliminate back firing. the back firing is caused by a very lean idle mixture. So if you are running a richer mixture either by a larger jet (how did you measure a jet to a tenth of a thousandth ???) or adjusting the idle screw (limiter cap removed) you should not require the air cut off valve. Just block off the vacuum port from the carb throat the the valve. That will eliminate the additional fuel used every time the throttle is closed.

Best of luck !!!

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jeffcosmo
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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby jeffcosmo » Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:30 pm

Ya know what?? It IS your bike, and you are free to do what you wish with it.

Are they good recommendations?? Well, that is, I guess, up to the reader to decide.

As to improving mileage, well, my stock '83 GL1100A, with WORKING accelerator pump, gets better mileage than yours. At 80 mph, I get 48 mpg.

Now, we have two opposing views. How SHALL we sort this??

As to engineering views not be worthwhile after a period of years, well, I'd rather know your education level, accomplishments and degrees before I give this much credence.

Me?? On a stock vehicle, I trust the engineers. They really DO know more than I know.

Lastly, given that there are virtually NO carburetted vehicles over 500cc on the road without benefit (perhaps) of an accelerator pump, I'm thinking you may NOT be onto something for the masses.

Yup, even my lowly, 602cc Citroën 2CV has an accelerator pump.

Cosmo

P.S. For me, the mark of a quality repair is just that, a repair, not a bodge to "get by" without repairing.

David2953
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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby David2953 » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:03 pm

It looks like Ekvh has some great insight. Thankyou, Ekvh.

Indianakid, I thought about disabling the air cutoffs, but the diaphragms were new and the fuel lost through the idle circuits is minimal, so I left them functional. I've never actually tested how much difference that would make on mileage. One thing I always disliked about my V65 Magna is It has no air cutoff valves and it pops a lot out the exhaust on decel. They call it afterburn, more correctly, since backfiring is really out the intake. This 1100 Goldwing just hums on decel. It was too bad they put a separate air cutoff on each carb. It does get expensive sometimes.
What affects mileage the most is the midrange, since that's where the throttle is held while cruising down the road. The idle circuits can be rich without much affect on mileage.
I have lots of small pins of different sizes that I use like go/nogo gauges to measure jets. I measure the pins with a micrometer. I can usually measure jets within .0005 of actual size. I never believe the size that is written on a jet, because other people may have reamed them out. I see it all the time.

Jeffcosmo, how can you possibly be getting 48 mpg at 80 mph with a GL1100? I would really love to know how you do that. I don't believe it can be stock and do that. Is it really consistently that, or just down a mountain road or with a very strong tail wind? How many miles have you measured the mileage? Of course, at steady 80 mph the accelerator pump doesn't do anything, but at lower speeds and especially in traffic it can use a lot of gas.
ALso Jeffcosmo, I do not try to get by. Most of my customers are extremely pleased with my work. This is my bike I am experimenting with, so the "quality" of the repair is not the issue. Whether it meets my standards is the issue, and my standards are very high. This isn't about how to fix something, its about how it should work. I should be able to talk about customizing my own bike without having to fight with you about it. Lay off, please.

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mytown
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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby mytown » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:46 pm

David2953 wrote:No, I did not say that it ran better. That is a lie.
Nah, I’m in the ballpark. You said you got better gas mileage. That’s what I was referring to. In any case, what little distinction there may be is small enough to where only a real POS would call someone a liar.

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ekvh
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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby ekvh » Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:27 pm

I could get 45mpg with my 77 at 80mph----- with a good tailwind. The aftermarket needles do basically the same thing. Stand them beside OEM needles and you'll see they're longer, by more than a few thousandths too.

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jeffcosmo
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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby jeffcosmo » Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:42 am

Mileage measured over 750 miles, Chicago to Cincinnati and back, one day, cruise set to 82 mph whenever possible. Why "82"?? I don't know, the mood struck me.
Mileage was also reported HERE, on this site, the day after I got back.

And when you are advocating a change, there will be dissenting viewpoints.

I know people satisfied with the work of the hacks around me. They don't know any better, there are NO good mechanics near here.

BTW, you aren't far, come down and we'll ride and compare.

Cosmo

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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby David2953 » Sun Aug 14, 2016 3:07 pm

jeffcosmo wrote:Lastly, given that there are virtually NO carburetted vehicles over 500cc on the road without benefit (perhaps) of an accelerator pump, I'm thinking you may NOT be onto something for the masses.

Yup, even my lowly, 602cc Citroën 2CV has an accelerator pump.


You are wrong again! I have been doing motorcycle repair full-time since 2009 and the vast majority of carbureted bikes do NOT have accelerator pumps. The ones that do are usually from the late 70s and early 80s.


mytown wrote:
David2953 wrote:No, I did not say that it ran better. That is a lie.
Nah, I’m in the ballpark. You said you got better gas mileage. That’s what I was referring to. In any case, what little distinction there may be is small enough to where only a real POS would call someone a liar.


No, I said throttle response was good and there was no hesitation. I did NOT say it got better gas mileage with the accelerator pump disabled and I did NOT say it ran better without it. It is reasonable to assume any engine would use more gas when you're squirting gas directly into the carb throats every time you give it throttle in the lower part of the range. And, I don't know what a POS is and probably don't want to know.

It was my needle drop that gave me better mileage and I measured the mileage for a tank-full at 42mpg. I only got 33 before the needle mod. I really want to know how your bike can be getting what you say it is. Your "HERE" link is inactive.

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ekvh
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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby ekvh » Sun Aug 14, 2016 4:36 pm

Olympics are awesome!

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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby Rusty Bike » Sun Aug 14, 2016 6:10 pm

I agree that accelerator pumps waste gas and also agree that you can do without one. That squirt of fuel also washes oil away from the cylinder wall which will lead to accelerated ring wear IMO. It's your bike, do as you like and thanks for the info, I appreciate your efforts and experience...Rusty Bike

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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby Johnyy Smoke » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:10 pm

I can see were lack of a accelerator pump would increase gas mileage, an interesting point of view, thinking outside the box.
I get about 43 mpg on the highway, which I thought was pretty good.
As we are all adults, it would seem that name calling has no place here , and frankly , it is rather undignified. Regards, Johnny

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mytown
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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby mytown » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:58 pm

Johnyy Smoke wrote:I can see were lack of a accelerator pump would increase gas mileage, an interesting point of view, thinking outside the box.
I get about 43 mpg on the highway, which I thought was pretty good.
As we are all adults, it would seem that name calling has no place here , and frankly , it is rather undignified. Regards, Johnny


I agree with you about the name calling and I apologize for disrespecting the forum for which there is not only great hope but great accomplishment. However, I would not describe the OP’s claim regarding better gas mileage after disengaging the accelerator pump as thinking outside the box. In fact it seems like the logical conclusion to make (unless of course you take into consideration his actual experience which was a decrease in mileage :shock: ) Thinking outside the box would be more like how could eliminating that squirt of gas result in a decrease in mileage, which is, after all, what the OP experienced.

David2953
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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby David2953 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:27 pm

Thankyou Johnyy Smoke. It is starting to look like low 40s is normal for a GL1100. I would like more responses about mileage or any information about Jet needle sizes or about running without the accelerator pump.

Mytown, you, sir are extremely wrong and disrespectful and you are not welcome here. You obviously do not have any respect for the truth. If you don't like being called a liar then stop lying. If I was the forum administrator I'd kick you off. I never said I got better gas mileage from disabling the accelerator pump. I never said I had a decrease in mileage. The bike got 33 the first time I ever tested it. It increased after I modified the jet needle positions, which has nothing to do with the accelerator pump. Please delete your lies about my experiences. And then don't come back.

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mytown
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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby mytown » Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:54 pm

Johnyy Smoke wrote:I can see were lack of a accelerator pump would increase gas mileage, an interesting point of view, thinking outside the box.
I get about 43 mpg on the highway, which I thought was pretty good.
As we are all adults, it would seem that name calling has no place here , and frankly , it is rather undignified. Regards, Johnny

He now is working on the theory that it is the needle jets that caused the poor mileage, something that seems highly unlikely. It could be that his considerable experience and certitude are getting in his way. Little ol’ me is gonna keep it simple and say “hmmm..disabled accelerator pump, got poor mileage, enable accelerator pump.” It would not be the first time something counterintuitive turned out to be the case. Even if the gas mileage went down after doing so, it would add credibility to the value of disabling the pump and thereby serve the community. For all I know they do waste gas, but no one I know is going to disable their accelerator pump based on what few facts he has presented here. And I would certainly want to know how the bike performs w/o the pump under a lot more conditions than just cruising on the highway. Accelerating uphill from a dead stop and to avoid collision come to mind. Seems to me a little acceleration can be important. Maybe there is a safety issue involved. It is his bike, but not his road.

David2953
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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby David2953 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:37 pm

Mytown, you are exactly opposite of the truth again. I asked you to not come back here. The most time is spent in the needle jet range of throttle, so it is obviously the most likely cause of poor mileage.

You contradict reason and truth whenever you can, I see. You try to make light of the truth and promote lies. You imply that experience and certainty are barriers to the truth when ,in reality, they are the way to the truth.

I never tested mileage regarding the accelerator pump and I never said I did. I expected a hesitation and I was surprised to find none. The performance from a stop is adequate for me without it. I suppose there are others that carry a lot more weight than I do that may benefit from having it.

Anyway, this was never intended to be a recommendation. I was hoping to discuss and learn, not fight against lies and false accusations. I did enough of that in my first marriage. I expected to find sane people here.

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Maz
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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby Maz » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:25 am

David,

my CB750L has accelerator pump as standard. When I bought the bike, the pump jets were blocked and the bike hesitated on initial acceleration. I removed the carbs to clean the jets but temporarily replaced the whole rack from a UK spec 750, with no accelerator pump. The jets are larger on the UK carbs, as standard, to compensate for the lack of a pump and they work so well, they are still on the bike 7 years later. The reasoning behind fitting the pump was, ALLEGEDLY, to allow the US spec carbs to have slightly smaller jets to meet US emissions criteria and, as they were jetted lean, not to have an 'off-idle' flat spot/hesitation. My assumption would have been that this reasoning applied to the 'wing as well, however, your experiment would seem to dis-prove that.

I say if it works for you, stick with it. Get some miles on the bike as it is and, if you're happy with the performance and the mixtures don't appear to be so lean as to cause hesitation or overheating, leave it as it is.
The pump only squirts gas as you open the throttle so I'm wondering if, subconsciously, you are giving the bike more initial throttle to accelerate and, in doing so, you are using more gas, over a period of time, than would normally be supplied when the pump squirts.
Just thinking out loud and always willing to be proved wrong when theorizing.

Name-calling? Ignore it. Did enough of that in primary school (not sure what the US term for 'primary school is!)
Maz
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Re: GL1100s do not need the accelerator pump

Postby David2953 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:39 am

Maz, Thanks for posting. The first part of what you said makes perfect sense, but no, a reduction in mileage was not my experience. This guy, Mytown, is misrepresenting my experience. I never said the things he says I did. I never tested mileage regarding the accelerator pump. I disabled the pump, yes, but I never tested mileage with it working. I never had the bike with it working. I know it would only cause low mileage in stop-and-go traffic.

Do not listen to mytown. The low mileage was probably caused by the needle jets being oversize. The previous mechanic put several incorrect parts in the carbs that I discovered, so possibly the needle jets also. I am still trying to find out what size they are supposed to be. I have temporarily corrected the mileage from 33 up to 42 by modifying the throttle slides to drop the needles .048", but I may change that if I find a jet size change that will do the same thing, or a little more. I was surprized to find no hesitation off idle from the needle drop. The performance is still very strong. I think the engine can handle an even leaner midrange. If I get it really lean, maybe I'll enable the accelerator pump to fill in the dead spot, but so-far I have no dead spot.




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