Help! I made a big timing belt mistake...


Information and questions on GL1100 Goldwings (1980-1983)
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romanfj
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Motorcycle: 1982 GL1100I

Help! I made a big timing belt mistake...

Postby romanfj » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:26 am



Well, I was directed correctly to the location of the timing inspection port and the pulse generator cover successfully and went to change the timing belts. After stressing how critical it was that my 22 year old daughter not allow that left camshaft pulley move, it shifted..

I completed the belt swap after reading that some shifting can occur due to stretched belts, etc. and gingerly tried to turn the engine over by hand and something (valves) is stopping it from running through a full revolution. The raised timing mark on the left cam pulley is just past the 6 o'clock point.

I haven't found anything online about how to correct this on a Wing. I'm guessing the crank pulley mark has to be back at the 12 noon position I marked with both cam pulley marks facing out at 3 o'clock left and 9 o'clock right. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these alignments have to occur when cylinder 1 is at TDC, which is when I can see the T1 mark in the access port? Is cyl 1 the right side forward-most cyl?

Almost sounds like I ave a clue, but how do I accomplish this feat of alignment? I'm betting the cyl heads have to come off, the valves get removed, engine pulleys all are rotated to correct positions and there's some way to re-install those valves so that they are all at the opposite point in the combustion cycle as the pistons. How do I do this. I don't even know how many valves per cylinder at this point, although I could read the manual :-)

Thank you for any direction you can provide in advance. I have $2k in this bike and have replaced/rebuilt almost EVERYTHING on it.


Current 1983 GL1100I
Current 1982 GL1100I/1983 Apencade hybrid (all body pieces are from the '83 A'cade), first Wing
Former CM900
Former CB400
Former Suzuki Savage

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ekvh
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Location: Grand Forks, ND
Motorcycle: 1977 gl1000

Re: Help! I made a big timing belt mistake...

Postby ekvh » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:03 am

Heads shouldn't have to come off unless you turned hard enough to bend a valve.

The thing to remember is there is only one T1 mark on the crank, but the cams move half the speed, so there are two T1 events there. You may have aligned your belts or a belt at the wrong T1.

To be sure, loosen all valve adjusters, then loosen the cam carriers (rocker arm carrier) enough so all valves are closed. Now, belts off, turn the crank to T1, put your belts on checking alignment carefully. Tighten carriers, and adjust valves per the book with the first T1 mark being the one you just finished. Rotate one rev to T1 again and adjust the second group of valves. You may have to retime ignition too.

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Clarencechapman
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Motorcycle: 1982 GL1100 Aspencade

Re: Help! I made a big timing belt mistake...

Postby Clarencechapman » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:21 pm

I am following this post. Had to remove the left head to get a broken bolt out and now can not seem to get it quite right. '82 1100A wing. There is a T1 timing mark and a T2 timing mark. Do you time that left head the same as the right on T1? Currently, When I crank the throttle i am getting a hesitation like not all the cylinders are firing and then it takes off. At high RPM's it sounds normal. The book I have is not all that clear on how to set the timing.
Thanks for the suggestions and help.

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ekvh
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Re: Help! I made a big timing belt mistake...

Postby ekvh » Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:04 pm

For belts and setting valves you use the same T1. I'm not sure why there is a T2. When setting points or Dyna you use F1 and F2, but not for belts or valves.

If the valves are set, you need to determine which T1 the crank is on. Best way for me is to wiggle the valves and decide from it. I think the book says that T1 is on compression stroke when the T1 comes up AFTER the intake valve on number 1 closes. So watch the intake valve on number 1, when it closes, rotate until T1 comes up.

Both intake and exhaust on number 1 should wiggle. Also 3 exhaust and four intake. The other valves should wiggle when the crank is rotated 360 to T1 again.

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thrasherg
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Re: Help! I made a big timing belt mistake...

Postby thrasherg » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:33 am

I haven't seen anyone state this, but just to be clear, if you rotated the rank by hand, you will NOT have damaged any valve gear.

You can always rotate the engine backwards, it will make a weird noise as the starter motor will engage, but you won't do any harm, so don't be afraid to rotate the engine backwards to line up you T1 marks and see if one of the cams has slipped. It is always good practice when rotating an engine backwards to go past the alignment points and then rotate the engine in the correct direction to bring it back to the alignment point, this way any slack in the cam driving system (chain or belts) will have been removed.

Gary

romanfj
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Motorcycle: 1982 GL1100I

Re: Help! I made a big timing belt mistake...

Postby romanfj » Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:08 am

Thank you all for your input. One of my biggest obstacles to fixing this was that I had been previously told never to rotate the engine of a Wing backwards. However, I took your advice.

I did rotate the engine by hand as gently as a human can originally and do not believe any valves could possibly have been damaged.

What I did, since the generator could not make a full clockwise revolution without hitting a valve, was to put the belts back on, rotate the engine counterclockwise back to T1. This brought the cams back to their original misaligned position. However, I had marked the crank pulley initially and at T1 it was still spot on by keeping the belts in place. Therefore, only had the cams to worry about.

I then clamped both cam pulleys in place, took the belts off and one at a time rotated the cams back to their correct position by hand, clamping them in place. I then reinstalled the belts.

For me there were 2 key points: The fact that I marked the crank to match T1 and that I didn't make a complete generator revolution by hand before the valves interfered. By rotating backward with the belts back on, even though the cams were both misaligned, I could rely on the fact that I knew where the crank was and how many revolution I had performed. Since it's 1 crank revolution to 2 cam pulley revolutions, I Bacterial risk and likelihood are both mitigated by recommend counting EXACTLY how many times you turn an engine over by hand every time you do it, though, of course, YMMV

After a dozen clockwise revolutions of the generator, nothing crashes together and T1 alignment results in all 3 pulleys being properly aligned. After I start it up, I'll let you all know if the engine implodes.
Current 1983 GL1100I
Current 1982 GL1100I/1983 Apencade hybrid (all body pieces are from the '83 A'cade), first Wing
Former CM900
Former CB400
Former Suzuki Savage

romanfj
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:50 am
Location: Knox, IN
Motorcycle: 1982 GL1100I

Re: Help! I made a big timing belt mistake...

Postby romanfj » Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:59 am

After correcting the timing belt mistake, installing a new water pump, hoses, gaskets and thermostat, I added the fluids yesterday, said a prayer and hit the ignition button and...

The timing is fine! :D Didn't get so much as a blip, let alone a backfire, after holding my neglected, 35 year old bike at 6500 RPM for 10 seconds and then taking my hand off the throttle to instantly snap back to idle. After running it long enough to force the radiator fan to run for 15 minutes at idle, I turned it off and did a happy dance. I even had enough time left in my evening to disassemble both air shocks and clean them in preparation for rebuilding.

The only difference I noticed is that the idle is now about 300 RPM faster than it was before I did the work. I'll adjust the idle screw, but out of curiosity am wondering if anyone has an explanation for why the idle would be higher after I did the work than it was before?

Thanks again for all the input!
Current 1983 GL1100I
Current 1982 GL1100I/1983 Apencade hybrid (all body pieces are from the '83 A'cade), first Wing
Former CM900
Former CB400
Former Suzuki Savage

Bigray1263
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Re: Help! I made a big timing belt mistake...

Postby Bigray1263 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:16 pm

I don't know why everyone is so worried about clamping the pulleys down. Rotate to T1 and alingn the marks on the pulley, done.

4wred
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Re: Help! I made a big timing belt mistake...

Postby 4wred » Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:23 am

That's great you got it all sorted! But 6500 rpm's for ten seconds without a load on the engine I personally would never rev a engine that high and that long with no load on it,just sayin.

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Clarencechapman
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Re: Help! I made a big timing belt mistake...

Postby Clarencechapman » Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:05 pm

Clarencechapman wrote:I am following this post. Had to remove the left head to get a broken bolt out and now can not seem to get it quite right. '82 1100A wing. There is a T1 timing mark and a T2 timing mark. Do you time that left head the same as the right on T1? Currently, When I crank the throttle i am getting a hesitation like not all the cylinders are firing and then it takes off. At high RPM's it sounds normal. The book I have is not all that clear on how to set the timing.
Thanks for the suggestions and help.


Wow what a crazy 4 weeks finally getting a chance to work on the bike again. I should have mentioned that I never removed the right head or timing belt. So that should be right. So with the timing marks on the Right side at 9:00 I should only have to match the marks on the left side and put the belt back on...right???

Well I did this and bike starts but it is not right. I can get it running but as soon as a put any load on it it goes bazerk. Backfiring terribly and dies. We did find that the valve adjustments were WAY off on the left side and have set them correctly.

The bike ran perfectly before the head work so I dont think its a carb issue at this point. If I timed it with the right side could the left still be off??? I have never replaced the belts so, could it be that now that the valve adjustments are correct the timing is that far off due to belt stretch?

Thanks for the help guys?

I am going to take the valve covers off tomorrow and follow some of the advice about checking the TDC by checking that the rockers are loose.

Any other advise is much appreciated.
Thanks

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James B
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Motorcycle: 1983 GL1100A Aspencade

Re: Help! I made a big timing belt mistake...

Postby James B » Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:56 pm

Think I might have made a mistake as well. So, I need to do my head gaskets, I removed the heads and my neighbor said I can just clamp the pullys in place, remove the timing belts do my thing and put new belts on and that's that. so I have these small vise grip c clamps on the pullys and everything is off. Is it true or do I need to line things up again? I was kinda pissed about my bike as I was doing it and didn't think of all the steps ive read about on here so I might have screwed it up. I'm not going to be doing it for a week or so, but whats up? should I just start from scratch? pull clamps line everything up and do it that way or am I ok?

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littlebeaver
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Re: Help! I made a big timing belt mistake...

Postby littlebeaver » Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:51 am

Do Not clamp the pulley itself, put a socket in the hole of the pulley and clamp the socket...19mm socket fits nice.....Never clamp the pulley... :D And for the pulleys with the triangle shape find a socket to fit it, I'm not sure what size socket that may be..If you are changing belts, place the new belts in before you clamp it down...Then you can remove old and place in new without moving a thing.... You just loosen the tensioners and goes with it. Do both sides at the same time..,,Nothing moves... Made it easy for me.... :D I call it the lock down system..I might be a dumbass but I am a smart dumbass..LOL



..
Gotta remove the valve covers
Gotta remove the valve covers

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Johnyy Smoke
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Re: Help! I made a big timing belt mistake...

Postby Johnyy Smoke » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:49 pm

This is the way I do mine, once I read Beavs advice. Trust me, it works! As a happy side note, it can also help to prevent you from throwing various wrenches across the garage, while cursing the motorcycle gods! Regards, Johnny

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ekvh
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Re: Help! I made a big timing belt mistake...

Postby ekvh » Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:58 pm

Per rotating the engine with no belts: if a valve is open and the piston comes up, they will meet. The valve will be bent. That's why they're called interference motors. You can move the crank, but all valves should be retracted.

As long as the crank is around 60 degrees off T1 or T2, you can look at the lobes of the cams and get them to where they are all on the low parts of the lobes. Then turn the crank to T1, replace belts, adjust valves, check ignition timing.

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James B
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Re: Help! I made a big timing belt mistake...

Postby James B » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:23 pm

Well I almost had it right, only thing is I clamped the gear without a socket, but everything went well, my marks were good and I put everything back together and its actually running really good, ive finally been riding it all over the place the last few days and am getting ready to ride it to work for the first time tomorrow. I know I didn't do everything by the book, I didn't check the timing or anything else, I did it by sound and feel like I used to do on my old cars. its idling steady and feeling good. dunno if I mentioned it but the bike was free and I already dumped about a grand into it plus 400 to get the registration current so I'm really not wanting to spend too much more at this point especially since Boeing just gave half a dozen of us layoff notices yesterday, 2 months left and I better get some work, lol

anyway, everything seems fine for now so I'm just gonna ride ride ride.




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