Normal stator output GL1100


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Joneszy
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Normal stator output GL1100

Post by Joneszy » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:14 pm



Have done searches but cannot come up with a definitive answer as to what the "normal output" of the stator should be when measured across the battery terminals while the bike is idling @ 1000RPM. Both my friend and I have volt meters installed and the voltage while running at idle with a fully charged battery (@12.7 to 12.8 volts) seems to be a bit high @ 14.8 to 14.9 V. My bike will sit there idling and not fluctuate from the 14.8 charging rate while running. Increasing the RPM does not seem to effect the charge rate from 14.8 We are used to seeing automotive readings of approx 14.3V and were wondering.



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Rednaxs60
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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by Rednaxs60 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:39 pm

The issue is with the circuitry. The RR has a reference voltage of approximately 14.2 VDC. The sense wire for the RR comes off after the engine stop switch and if you take a reading from the sense wire you will find it at approximately 12.5 VDC and this never changes. This requires the RR to put out a voltage in the higher range of close to 15 VDC continuously since the reference voltage will never equal the RR reference voltage. It's pure math, 14.2 VDC plus the delta equals the RR output.

To rectify this it has been proposed to take a reference voltage from the battery. This was done prior to the newer RR units that use an electrical system sense wire, but the OEMs changed from a direct battery sense wire connection some time ago.

I propose and others have differed, is to find the splice/bond between the RR output red/white wire and the red wire from the starter solenoid to the ignition switch that is in the wiring harness. I would relocate and connect the sense wire to this junction. It will provide a true electrical system voltage for the RR to operate from. It is the one connection where all electrical system current is at and distributed from.

Here is a schematic of what I am mentioning:


Another reason for attaching the sense wire at this junction is that once the engine is started and the battery is topped back up to a 100 percent state of charge, it requires a trickle charge to maintain the 100 percent state of charge, the remaining current is used by the engine and electrical system to operate the bike. As an example there is probably 2-3 amps going to the battery after the engine is started and the remainder of the current being put into the system heads towards and through the ignition switch for the bike operation.

If you connect the sense wire at this junction it should be done through a switched relay so that there is no power through the sense wire when the engine is not started.

JMHO and thoughts on your issue.

Cheers
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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by DaveO430 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:45 pm

Good in theory Earnest but I prefer to cut the black wire from the ignition switch and install a relay from a direct source such as the splice you speak of and use the black wire from the switch to trigger the relay. That takes the load off the switch and puts everything through the relay so it all works better. Use a good 30 amp relay, put it where you can get to it and carry a spare.

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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by Joneszy » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:12 pm

I am thinking that you guys are funnin me. The answers to my ? are so far above my pay grade that I don't have a clue what you are talking about. The real question I had was what should a volt meter read normally when I take a reading across the -ve +ve posts on the battery when the Gl1100 is idling @1000RPM. Is 14.8V too high or still within specs? If I don't get the responses I offer my apologies.

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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by Rednaxs60 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:01 pm

DaveO430 wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:45 pm
Good in theory Earnest but I prefer to cut the black wire from the ignition switch and install a relay from a direct source such as the splice you speak of and use the black wire from the switch to trigger the relay. That takes the load off the switch and puts everything through the relay so it all works better. Use a good 30 amp relay, put it where you can get to it and carry a spare.
Agree with you. I just wasn't mentioning how to hook it up.

"I am thinking that you guys are funnin me. The answers to my ? are so far above my pay grade that I don't have a clue what you are talking about. The real question I had was what should a volt meter read normally when I take a reading across the -ve +ve posts on the battery when the Gl1100 is idling @1000RPM. Is 14.8V too high or still within specs? If I don't get the responses I offer my apologies."

No worries, and we are not funnin you. This is definitely not above your pay grade. 14.8 VDC is still too high. it should stay at around 14.2/14.3 VDC unless the RPM is not sufficient to keep the rotor/stator assembly in the engine producing enough AC voltage to sustain an RR output of 14.2/14.3 VDC. The rotor/stator output should be capable of providing adequate power for the RR to output 14.2/14.3 VDC from at least 1500 RPM.

Making this change is in line with the vintage auto industry and it is also where I get most of my information from. Our bikes are no different than a car just everything is in a small confined space.

Here is a schematic that illustrates what I have mentioned:


The 14 VDC junction is the splice/bond that is shown in the schematic in my first post.

The benefit to making this change will be a better operating electrical power/charging system, the RR should/will last longer.

The stator produces power all the time and the power produced is RPM dependent. As the power produced increases, the RR has to regulate the power into the electrical system and any excess is shunted to ground. The RR is designed to do this; however, when the RR senses the need for additional power into the electrical system due to wiring losses from supplying components on the RR sense circuit, it will allow additional voltage into the system. This is problematic from a voltage issue in that the system is designed to accept a 14/2/14.3 VDC input. The electrical system is really not a 12 VDC system. Continual input in excess of this 14.2/14.3 VDC can damage wiring and wiring connectors from a heat perspective, and electrical components such as the RR.

Having mentioned the above, I would recommend perusing the electrical schematics, opening the wiring harness, find the splice/bond - it's probably half way between the RR and the battery in the wiring harness - and connect a new sense wire.

Lots of info on the forum(s) to give guidance and allow you to do this beneficial change. We can also help guide you as well.

Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

Joneszy
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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by Joneszy » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:16 pm

Thanx for this Rednaxs60. I am going to forward a link for this to my mechanical wizard friend and will try to get my head around what you are telling me with a bit of added info from him as we enjoy our next dram or two!
Appreciate your taking the time to go into such detail.
BTW thanx for finally sending some of that nice WARM Pacific coastal air to us here in the prairies. It has been a brutal winter here in Manitoba till the past few days!
Jonesz

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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by DaveO430 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:57 am

First thing you need to do is confirm what we already know but just for assurance. Check the voltage at the black wire to the regulator compared to battery voltage, check it at the fuse box too. If the regulator is sensing low voltage you probably are not getting good power to the rest of the system either. That's why I recommend putting the relay where it powers all of it, not just the sense wire.

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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by Joneszy » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:15 am

Thanx Dave, will do. Have other things on my list for the next couple of days but maybe back to the bike on the weekend! Appreciate your help.
Jonesz

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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by RBGERSON » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:25 am

Well I am electrically challenged most of the time..but to answer your original question.. Take the bike for a short ride to charge the battery back up after you started it..now at idle (750-950 rpm's) it should show about 12.5V's at the battery..now rev up the engine to 3,000 rpm's the V's should jump up to at least 13.5 maybe 14 but not higher. If it's above 14 +/- at idle most likely your regulator is not functioning properly or a wiring issue most likely at the plug for the three yellow wires right next to the battery.
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
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FAIR WINDS,
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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by Joneszy » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:49 am

RBGerson thanx for this as well. My friend and I have both removed the three yellow wire connector and hard wired the stator. Were wondering about the regulator though. Will check that as well over the coming days.

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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by Rednaxs60 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:59 am

Read through your thread again. You do not mention whether you tested the AC voltage coming from the rotor/stator assembly. You do this by disconnecting the stator wires from the system and then taking AC voltage readings between any two wires - you will have three readings. Once this is confirmed you can look at the RR. From what is being mentioned in this thread it appears that the RR is doing what it is supposed to, but the voltage on the sense wire is too low and causing the higher charging rate.

Agree with Dave - relays are the way to go to reduce load on the older components such as the ignition switch. The sense wire that goes to the RR as installed by the OEM is a good relay trigger wire for a few relays.

Another nice to have mod is a more direct electrical system voltage of approximately 14 VDC supply to the coils. The black/white wire as installed by the OEM comes from the engine stop switch (kill switch) and also provides power to other components reducing the voltage supply to the coils. A 14 VDC supply through a relay direct to the coils can improve coil performance. You may not notice an improvement in performance, but the coils will be operating better because of the voltage being closer to that in the electrical system of approximately 14 VDC. Lots of information on the net regarding the relationship between voltage and coil performance. If you were to do this mod, the black/white wire becomes another wire that can be used as the trigger wire for additional relays. Something to consider.

I mention 14 VDC because in reality the electrical system operates at approximately 14 VDC at all times, not 12 VDC, and all electrical system components are designed for this voltage. If not you would see a lot of failures.
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by WingAdmin » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:22 am

Rednaxs60 wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:01 pm
No worries, and we are not funnin you. This is definitely not above your pay grade. 14.8 VDC is still too high. it should stay at around 14.2/14.3 VDC unless the RPM is not sufficient to keep the rotor/stator assembly in the engine producing enough AC voltage to sustain an RR output of 14.2/14.3 VDC. The rotor/stator output should be capable of providing adequate power for the RR to output 14.2/14.3 VDC from at least 1500 RPM.

Making this change is in line with the vintage auto industry and it is also where I get most of my information from. Our bikes are no different than a car just everything is in a small confined space.

Here is a schematic that illustrates what I have mentioned:Wiring schematic - 1.jpgThe 14 VDC junction is the splice/bond that is shown in the schematic in my first post.

The benefit to making this change will be a better operating electrical power/charging system, the RR should/will last longer.
There's one problem with your suggestion - and that's that it will keep the regulator powered up 24/7, even when the bike is not running, and it will quickly drain your battery when the bike is off. The reference voltage to the regulator needs to be turned off when the bike is turned off.

The problem with the four-cylinder Wing charging system is as you mention, low reference voltage. The reason is that the reference voltage comes from the battery, through the fuse box, through the ignition switch, and then to the regulator - and it passes through quite a few junctions on the way. With dirt and grime accumulating on fuse connectors, junctions, ignition switch, etc. over the years, quite a bit of resistance builds up, which drops the voltage "seen" by the regulator. It then boosts output to try to compensate.

You might be measuring 14.4 VDC at the battery terminals, but after going through all those junctions and switches, the regulator is seeing maybe 12.5 VDC, a drop of say, 1.9 volts. So it tries to boost output by 1.9 volts until it "sees" 14.4 VDC. Unfortunately for the battery, this means you now read 16.3 volts at the battery terminals, and the result is a cooked battery, light bulbs blowing prematurely, etc.

So the solution is exactly what you propose - a direct (but FUSED!) wire coming from the battery and connecting to the regulator sense wire. However, it has to go through a relay, first. The relay coil is triggered by the ORIGINAL switched sense wire. That way the regulator sees full, unadulterated battery terminal voltage, but it is switched off when the bike is switched off.

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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by Rednaxs60 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:13 pm

Agree with WingAdmin in that a relay is needed in the sense wire mod to make sure there is no power going to the RR when the bike is not operating.

My preference is to go to the junction in the wiring harness as per the schematic I have posted earlier. As I have mentioned the OEM did go to the battery in the past but has since changed its design to use the electrical system circuitry for the voltage sense wire circuit. Another reason to go to this junction is that if there is a change in the electrical system current requirements, the RR will react to the load change at the wire junction, not what is happening at the battery. This is considering that when the bike is operating, the majority of the power produced is for the operation of the bike, not to charge the battery - very low current flow to the battery once the bike is started - 2 to 3 amps max with a good condition battery.

WingAdmin is correct in that if there is a loss in the wiring, the RR is designed to try to make up this short fall, and in doing so tends to put out too much voltage and interesting things start to happen in the system.

Here is a schematic of how to connect the relay into the system:


Cheers
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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by Winnipeg » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:52 pm

I’m also getting same readings of 14.5 to 14.8 at 1000 rpm idle. Thought this to be normal as not blowing any bulbs or boiling battery. At least hoping there isn’t a problem.

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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by DaveO430 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:20 am

Winnipeg wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:52 pm
I’m also getting same readings of 14.5 to 14.8 at 1000 rpm idle. Thought this to be normal as not blowing any bulbs or boiling battery. At least hoping there isn’t a problem.
You have a potential problem. A relay in the system, not just for the regulator, would solve problems you don't know you have.

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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by RBGERSON » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:14 am

Just a question from the electrically challenged..could a bad battery/cell cause the regulator to allow 14.5 charging thinking the battery is low???
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by Winnipeg » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:20 am

14.0 to 15.0 volts at 3000 rpm according to Clymer Manual is normal.

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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by Maz » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:09 am

Winnipeg wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:20 am
14.0 to 15.0 volts at 3000 rpm according to Clymer Manual is normal.
Not at 1000 rpm, though. At 1000 rpm the battery should barely be charging (if at all). According to the Haynes manual, charging doesn't actually start until 1500 rpm. I haven't personally verified this, but I get a good 14.5v at 3000 rpm.
Maz
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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by Rednaxs60 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:22 am

RBGERSON wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:14 am
Just a question from the electrically challenged..could a bad battery/cell cause the regulator to allow 14.5 charging thinking the battery is low???
The issue is not with a specific electrical system component such as the battery, but with the electrical system as a whole. The RR is designed to maintain the electrical system voltage at approximately 14.2 VDC. You increase/decrease the amp requirement from wherever or whatever, and the RR will/should compensate by increasing/decreasing the RR output. Increase the amp requirement in the electrical system, voltage goes down - just like plumbing, increase water flow, water pressure reduces. The RR will increase output to bring the voltage back up to the RR reference voltage. Reduce the amp requirement in the system, the voltage goes up - just like in plumbing reduce water flow, water pressure increases - the RR will reduce the output to bring the voltage back to the RR reference voltage.

If the battery when fully charged is receiving a trickle charge from the system of say 2 amps (battery at a nominal 100 percent state of charge - mine is about this), and the amps to the battery goes up to say 4 amps because of a dead cell, the electrical system voltage should reduce and the RR receives this information through the sense wire and the RR output is increased to compensate and bring the electrical system voltage back to the RR reference voltage of approximately 14.2 VDC. These numbers are used to illustrate an example, actual values may vary.

In other words, the electrical system is operating at say 20 amps - this is for the whole electrical system. The electrical system amp requirement changes to say 22 amps because of the extra amp requirement of the battery. The electrical system voltage goes down say .2 VDC. This reduction in electrical system voltage is sensed by the RR and the RR increases the output to compensate. When the electrical system voltage is brought back to the RR reference voltage the RR output is adjusted to suit and maintain the RR reference voltage.

This is why I mention that the sense wire should be at the wire junction in the wire harness as I have shown in the schematic(s) in my previous posts because the alternator unit consisting of an internal rotor/stator assembly and an external regulator/rectifier is to power the electrical system as a whole, not just to charge the battery. The splice of the red/white wire from the RR to the starter solenoid and the red wire from the starter solenoid to the ignition switch in the wiring harness is a key connection where all electrical system loads are felt and power is distributed from.

The RR is to sense the system requirements and output or not, the requisite amperage to compensate and bring the electrical system voltage back to the RR reference voltage. I mention amperage because voltage is a pressure based on the current flow in the electrical system.

Cheers
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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by Winnipeg » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:10 pm

That was a great explanation and very understandable even for me. Thanks Red. And oh yeah go Jets!!!

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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by Joneszy » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:06 am

Thanx to everyone (You know who you are) for all the time and effort put into these replies. My buddy and I talked it over yesterday. He has an 82 plus 30 years of mechanical background. We have decided to install the recommended "sense system" and a relay on our bikes as a preventative measure this spring. He has other projects on the go and my bike is still a work in progress as I need to install the front headlight, turns signals, ears etc before it is roadworthy so it may be awhile before the bikes get the make over. I will report back when the install is done and tell about the benefits to the charging system.
Once again thank-you
Jonesz

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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by Joneszy » Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm

Well we are going to give installing a relay etc a try but wondering where in the harness we might look for the bond between the red wire and red wire/white trace that are shown in Rednax60's diagram. Hope to do this without having to strip too much of the harness and we cannot seem to find a wiring diagram that shows this connection. We have been using an 82 interstate/standard schematic as the bike my friend owns is an 82 Standard. Any help appreciated as always.
Joneszy

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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by RBGERSON » Thu May 17, 2018 7:27 am



This is for an 83 Interstate..might be a bit closer to yours.
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by Joneszy » Thu May 17, 2018 6:37 pm

My friend did the relay/new sensor wire mod today on his 82 Standard and came up with the following results: Charging V at the battery before the mod 14.8V vs charging V at the battery after the mod 14.3V I am thinking that the mod did its' job and that the change was well worth the effort. The relay was inserted at the connector just below the R&R. Your mileage may vary from our diagram due to different colored wires on the relay used. Posting a diagram of the mod as installed


Hope this helps anyone trying to get the sensor and stator in sync. I will be doing the same to my 83 Aspencade shortly.
Many thanx to all who have contributed to this thread.
Joneszy

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Re: Normal stator output GL1100

Post by Joneszy » Fri May 18, 2018 9:16 pm

Did the above mod (friends 1982 standard) on my 83 Aspencade (naked) today and results were very good. Prior to mod my bike was putting out 14.8V at the battery. After the mod the charging rate was 14.25V at the battery while idling @1000RPM. It was charging 14.05V at the battery while holding an even 2000RPM. These voltages were checked numerous times with a multimeter and did not vary more than .05V I am very happy with the results and thank everyone for their input on this thread. Highly recommend this mod.
Joneszy



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