Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100


Information and questions on GL1100 Goldwings (1980-1983)
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dwight007fchr
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Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby dwight007fchr » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:18 pm



Hello. I recently acquired a 83 GL1100 Interstate that definately needed alot of TLC and maintenance. Have done much already, and today I took her out for another test spin and to get some gas. After filling up the gas tank, I went to start her, but the starter just "spun". So, I immediately stopped, waited a couple seconds, and tried again.....she just spun, and would not engage. I waited another 5-10 seconds, and tried again.....this time she engaged and the engine fired right up.

What advice can anyone give me regarding the potential problem? Is this something I can cross my fingers and try to get by without replacing until winter? Or, is this a sympton of something I can adjust without a major repair effort? Any tips on how to roll start her should the starter be totally stubborn and refuse to engage the flywheel? Is it best to just put her in second, and have someone push and then pop the clutch? Or, is roll starting destructive to the bike? Sure wish these wings had a compression release valve and a good old-fashioned kick start on the side. Is it impossible to put her on the center stand, then click the tranny up to 5th gear, turn on the key, and then attempt to turn the rear tire to coax her to fire up?

Thanks for any advice.
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83 Interstate



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trike lady
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1983 GL650I SilverWing Interstate

Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby trike lady » Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:33 pm

How old is the battery?
The starter relay may be going bad, have you tested it?
The starter is old and may be tired too, a gentleman on another wing Forum recently changed the starter on his 1100.
I made him run the series of tests and then told him to remove the starter and bench test it, two gears were missing teeth in the planetary gears and he went with a new one.
Also spray contact cleaner into the start button to clean and lubricate it.
I.M.B.B.A. Technician II Certified

dwight007fchr
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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby dwight007fchr » Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:46 pm

TrikeLady.....Thanks for the quick reply.

The age of the battery......well, I think the last owner bought a battery last spring, but I cant be sure. When I bought the Wing this Jan, the battery was only 60% full of acid, which is not a good sign. Since then, I cleaned the battery, refilled with distilled water, and charged. She seems to keep a good charge, and I will be doing an amp test as soon as the meter comes in.

Starter Relay.......No, I have not tested it, but for the starter does "whir" or spin, but not always engaging the gear and chain to turn the engine. I will check the "How To" pages on the proper technique for testing the Relay. Thanks for that tip.

The last owner was not the type who did any maintenance, so Im thinking I should take the time to remove the starter and clean and inspect.......and I may find the problem.

Another good tip on spraying the contact cleaner in the starter button area.

dc

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby WingAdmin » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:25 pm

When the starter spins but does not engage the engine, it is normally a sign that the sprag clutch that engages the starter to the engine is not working correctly. The reason for this is that the sprag clutch does not have good lubrication flow, so oil sludge tends to collect there, clogging up the little sprag arms. Eventually, there is enough sludge in there to prevent the arms from engaging - the result is that the starter spins, but does not crank the engine. It starts out intermittent, and as time goes on and more and more sludge builds up, it starts to happen more and more often. If it gets to the point where it does not engage at all anymore, you've got a problem - the engine has to come out to get to it and clean it out.

Fortunately, if the engine can still be started, you're in luck - the fix is quite easy. Go to your local NAPA or Walmart and buy a can of Seafoam. Pour the whole can into your crankcase (where you normally pour your engine oil). Go out and ride for 30-60 minutes. When you get back, and while the engine is still relatively warm, drain the engine oil, and refill with clean oil. The Seafoam will dislodge and dissolve the gunk and sludge and allow it to run out with the engine oil - and in most cases, this will solve the starter problem. If there is a LOT of sludge in there, you might have to repeat the process a second time.

When I did this to my engine, I did it quite soon after I had changed the oil, so the oil was clean and fresh. I put the Seafoam in, rode for about 45 minutes, came home and drained the oil. I could not believe the black crap that came out of my engine. I now make a point of putting Seafoam through my engine just before the last oil change I do when putting the bike away for the winter.

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby dwight007fchr » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:00 pm

WingAdmin......Once again, many thanks on your last post, and your suggestion to use SeaFoam to dislodge the sludge from amongst the sprag clutch. Like you, I also just changed the oil and so when I conduct this experiment, I should see alot of black oil and maybe even sludge come out. I am thinking that if this SeaFoam breaks up sludge that well, then after I drain the crankcase, I may then fill her up with a mixture of oil and keresene, and let that slosh around for awhile, and then drain her again, and then add the fresh oil and filter.

Do you think the mixture of say 1qt oil and 2 qts keresene would do any harm to any of the internal parts/seals?.....and to only have it in for say 1 hour max before draining. Also, would it be wise to run the engine with this mixture for a quick 1 minute before draining?

Another note regarding this starter problem: It seems that this problem never happens when the engine is cold......only after she has warmed up. I would tend to think that any sludge on that sprag clutch arm would tend to stick more when cold than when hot.......any thoughts on this? Another curious issue is that when the engine has warmed up thoroughly, it becomes difficult to shift into Neutral. I will do my best to push down lightly from 2nd to Neutral, but she clicks down to 1st, and when I then try to pull up lightly from 1st into Neutral, she clicks up into 2nd. Sometimes I just have to turn the motor off with her in 1st or 2nd. Any ideas on why this occurs, again typically when the engine is fully warmed-up?

Since the starter probably has not been off to be cleaned for many years, that will also be on my "to do" list.

Thanks.

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby virgilmobile » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:30 pm

Just a mechanical note:the starter motor is direct drive thru a gear reduction.I does not have any clutch mechanism in it.

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby WingAdmin » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:41 pm

virgilmobile wrote:Just a mechanical note:the starter motor is direct drive thru a gear reduction.I does not have any clutch mechanism in it.


Sorry, but you're wrong. The starter motor has a splined shaft that engages a sprocket. The sprocket drives a chain, which in turn drives a larger sprocket (which is the reduction). This larger sprocket (item 2 in the first diagram) has a shaft that rides on a roller bearing and rotates inside the sprag clutch (item 3). The sprag clutch is mounted into, and turns with, the stator rotor. This in turn is connected to the engine:

Starter Clutch
Starter Clutch


The sprag clutch "grabs" the shaft when it is rotating faster than the clutch itself, otherwise it allows it to freewheel - so it only engages in one direction:

Sprag Clutch
Sprag Clutch


When the starter turns, it rotates the larger sprocket and inner sprag shaft. The sprags in the sprag clutch grab onto this shaft, locking the sprag clutch to the starter drive sprocket, which then rotates the entire engine. As soon as the engine fires, it starts rotating faster than the starter, causing the sprag clutch to release its hold on the shaft and freewheel.

Sludge in the sprag clutch prevents the sprags from engaging the shaft, so the starter spins without spinning the engine.

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby WingAdmin » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:43 pm

Dwight...I don't know if kerosene will do any seal damage - someone else might have to speak to that. I know that I certainly wouldn't try running my engine with a 1:3 concentration of oil to kerosene - just not enough lubrication. I do know Seafoam will not harm seals, and works very well, so I haven't tried anything beyond that.

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby guitarlos » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:01 am

Ive Seafoamed my crank case before and couldnt believe all the emulsified sludge that came out. Seafom doesnt mess with any of the seals either. Kerosene may create more issues than what it may cause, maybe not now, but possibly down teh road with seals and etc......

If I were you, Id invest in some Seafoam and drive it for a tankfull and then drain the oil/Seafoam mixture.

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:56 am

WingAdmin,
"virgilmobile wrote:
Just a mechanical note:the starter motor is direct drive thru a gear reduction.I does not have any clutch mechanism in it."

I'm only referring to the motor. The starter MOTOR does not have a clutch.It is gear drive only,unlike a car starter with a bendix.
I didn't want anyone to think that a intermittent starter engaging is related to it rather than
the internal clutch.

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby WingAdmin » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:04 am

virgilmobile wrote:I'm only referring to the motor. The starter MOTOR does not have a clutch.It is gear drive only,unlike a car starter with a bendix.
I didn't want anyone to think that a intermittent starter engaging is related to it rather than
the internal clutch.


Gotcha. Correct, the starter motor is just that - a electric motor, reduction drive and an output shaft.

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby dwight007fchr » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:04 pm

WingAdmin........Real good post showing the starter details and the sprag clutch. I agree with everyone, and do plan to use the SeaFoam. My only thought was that after draining the oil/SeaFoam concoction, there would still be loosened sludge that doesnt fully drain out........so why not add a mix of keresene/oil to help convince the remaining loosened sludge to find its way to the drain plug, and onto greener pastures? Maybe let this mix sit for a couple hours, even fire up the engine for 10 seconds, and then drain it all again before filling-up with fresh oil.

Virgil & Guitarlos.......thanks for all input.

Thumbs up or thumbs down to this extra flush? Or, I could try a quart of that autoparts brand of "Motorflush" that would probably do the same thing, after first using the SeaFoam. Or maybe this is just a bit overkill, and I should just let SeaFoam do her job and be happy most of the sludge is gone.

dc

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby DragonRider » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:38 pm

Please DO NOT put kerosine in your engine. the older GL's have seals which kerosine will damage rather quickly.
Seafoam will remove about 90% of the garbage in your engine (before you add seafoam drain out about the same amount of oil to avoid overfilling crankcase). once you drained out oil/seafoam mix you change filter and add new oil, I would recomend that next oil change be about 1/2 of normal this should remove all garbage in short order.
Seafoam will not damage seals. works good for cleaning fuel system (just dont use whole bottle)

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby littlebeaver » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:45 pm

Yeh, what he said... :lol: :lol: :shock: :shock: Silly Rabbit's...

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby dwight007fchr » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:32 pm

DragonRider........Ok......you have veto power......I dont want to damage any old seals, so the keresene idea is not pitched out the window.

LittleBeaver.......You wascully wabbit, as Elmer Fudd would say. Just SeaFoam, and "Tha-tha-thaaaa-thats All Folks".

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby amsoilman » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:28 pm

I have had the same issue as bike had sat for a while. But now the other night there was a clunking sound coming from engine. Then many clunks then killed the engine. Starter is newly rebuilt so I knew it was not the issue.Starter seemed jamed and just shifted in second (while standing still) and rocked bike for a few times,then starter fired her back up. After proceeding for about 8-10 miles she started to clunk again but more often then many times and after I pulled in clutch to coast to a stop before she locked up it ??Yup, CLUNK,CLUNK then Locked up. I have checked out all the possible issues. Took off starter clutch cover and tried to break loose. Only would turn a 1/8 turn in either direction. My impression? Sludge held out rollers and jamed into flywheel and they are locked up.Im sure I can rock back and forth again to start her then A good engine flush a few times as recommended by forum with filter changes. Any other imput on this locking issue.
Thank you for any and all imput. Amsoilman

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby dwight007fchr » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:36 pm

Amsoil..........Man, those noises.....the Clunking, Clanking, and more Clunking.......kinda like a kid running his finger nails accross a blackboard.....not a good noise to put up with. I hope the SeaFoam flush and reflush solves your problem.......and something I need to do very soon myself. The joys of driving and restoring antique cycles.

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby amsoilman » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:54 am

Dewitt: My starter had locked up appairentlly. Can only turn engine from rear bolt about 1/8th turn Both directions.Tried tapping on housing (case) nothing. Guess droppin engine is next. I can turn starter chain with fingers one direction (counter clock wise ). Anyone else can chim in?
Amsoilman

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby dwight007fchr » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:09 pm

Amsoil.........Im definately not the expert like others on here are, and I hope someone else responds with some good info for you regarding this problem. You think it is worth the effort to take the starter off again (and be sure you keep her tilted on her kickstand, not center stand). Maybe that will free-up the motor, and you will find the problem there instead of having to remove the entire engine.

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby amsoilman » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:19 am

Dewitt: Bad news on inspection of starter clutch. Here are a few pics of findings. Now remember about 30 teath are unacounted for. Must be in Pan I hope and wish. I'll pull the drain/dipstick fittings and hope I can put my small tube type extra strength mag into pan to hopefully get teeth out.If not I may be parting Snow out. Bike only has about 30,000 on her but had sat a while without startups and changes of filters and fluids. There is a dirt film over everything I have pulled out. I also need to find a Starter clutch DRIVE gears. **** the bed fred, How do we attach pics again on site?
Amsoilman

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby dwight007fchr » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:30 am

Amsoil.......man.......not good news.....30 teeth missing......wow......yea, hopefully just resting peacfully at the bottom of the oil pan....maybe will drain out when you pull the oil plug.......wishful thinking.

To add pictures, just go down to the tab below this section that says "Upload attachment". Then it will allow you to go search your picture files in your computer and fetch the ones you want to insert in this posting. Gotta go get one pic at a time, and it should insert real easy. I am like you, and was trying to "copy/paste" the pics, but that did not work.

deeeewhite.

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby amsoilman » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:37 am

DEWIGHT: Here are pics. Questions on how to weld on teeth.. Haaaaa Dentist false teeth?
Amsoilman
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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby amsoilman » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:51 am

Only took about an hour to pull but air tools and elevated bike makes it much faster then lying on the ground. Even if the teeth are on bottom but I did find some on topside of shelling inside case. The Jamming was a tooth in the works and part of another.I only have 30teeth to find and Hope there isnt any little shavings that will be pushed thru the engine. Ill keep ya informed on how many I do pull out of crankcase. Out to look. Talk soon.
amsoilman

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby amsoilman » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:35 am

Dwight: My Mag is to big to fit into the drain hole in block. Now I was just looking and on the front of engine at filter and water pump there is another mounting panel.8mm bolts hold it on. Ill check into the parts diag. and check out is it open behind it ?
Ill keep ya informed. Oh ya there are 41 teeth broken off both gears. I have 7 out alerady. So its not as bad as I thought.HAAaaaaaaa :lol:
Amsoilman

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Re: Signs of Starter Going Bad--1983 GL1100

Postby amsoilman » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:51 am

Dewight: Front transmission cover.
http://www.goldwingdocs.com/Docs/Honda% ... -DC84B.pdf
Amsoilman out..




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