Timing keeps skipping


Information and questions on GL1100 Goldwings (1980-1983)
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dnvldw14874
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Timing keeps skipping

Postby dnvldw14874 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:06 pm



I took my time replacing a head and the gaskets on my GL1100a. I replaced the timing belts as well. I kept noticing that after I ran it a little bit, the timing would be off by one tooth. I would readjust it, it would start right up. After I would leave it, I would come back, a later day, and it would be off again. Today I decided that I was being too critical and put it all back together, after adjusting my timing marks again! I started it up, it was hard to get runnung, so I checked my marks again, and they were not off. I left it for a few hours, and started it again. CRUNCH! the inevitable happened. It stopped running immediately. I already know that I will have to check my valves and pistons, but I need to know what the heck keeps letting the timing slip. I tightened one belt (the left first) by using the tensioner and the position that makes it tight, then by turning it over half a turn and using the tension that occurs with the tensioner and position of everything. I tightened it all down, and rechecked my marks every time. What the heck could be doing this?



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Re: Timing keeps skipping

Postby WingAdmin » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:13 pm

The belts are too loose. The instructions to "allow the springs on the tensioners to set the belt tension" is fine when the bike came off the factory floor, but after 30 years, those springs don't have much spring left in them. Setting the tension on the belts using the springs alone will result in belts that are too loose, and the end result will be exactly what you have experienced.

I think I will be doing my belts again this winter - at that time I'll order new springs (possibly new tensioners, depending on their condition). Once I've got it in place with the new springs, I'll measure the belt deflections, so that those without new springs can set their belt tension correctly with old springs.

dnvldw14874
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Re: Timing keeps skipping

Postby dnvldw14874 » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:37 pm

They were tight like a banjo string though. I serioustly could get a note by "strumming" it. Then, I tightened it all down (the rollers). Should I have let the one side of the tensioners (rollers) float? I just do not get it. They were very tight.

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Re: Timing keeps skipping

Postby littlebeaver » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:02 pm

I have a hair over 1/8" play in my belts but not quite 3/16" right between the two measurments on my belts, on both of them, so how in the heck did I measure it, I used a straight edge on it, I used a small piece of aluminum angle I got at the hardware store..Just lay it across the top of the belt or you can do it the best way that you can come up with...Just cause I do it this way doesn't make it correct... :D

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Re: Timing keeps skipping

Postby WingAdmin » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:07 pm

dnvldw14874 wrote:They were tight like a banjo string though. I serioustly could get a note by "strumming" it. Then, I tightened it all down (the rollers). Should I have let the one side of the tensioners (rollers) float? I just do not get it. They were very tight.


Oh, that's far too tight, then. I don't know if too-tight belts can cause it to skip a tooth or not - it's not something I've ever heard of before. I know it will cause premature belt wear.

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Re: Timing keeps skipping

Postby littlebeaver » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:11 pm

Over tighting belts is surely to wear out your tensioner bearings in a hurry too, probably will make some odd noises too, I'm not an expert at this stuff but I do have a little experiance.. :D

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Re: Timing keeps skipping

Postby dnvldw14874 » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:01 pm

Yeah. I just don't get it. How it could have possibly skipped. Maybe we all can learn from making the tension too tight. Naturally, I would have to discover this. I hope someone can give us more insight on how this could have happened. Once I get all of this fixed, I sure as heck do not want to have this happen again. It is just wierd how even after adjusting the belt ( it was always the right belt out of time) in and out (tighter and looser, whichever made it start best) it still skipped. I even went with the good belts.

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Re: Timing keeps skipping

Postby littlebeaver » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:39 pm

gosh I don't know, the only thing I can think of is for you to start over and try it again, those arrows should line up on both sides, when at T-1..I hope the belts are good..I have never had a problem like that..could the base that holds your covers be bent on one side somehow, Have you tested the timing with a timing light yet?

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Re: Timing keeps skipping

Postby dnvldw14874 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:10 pm

Before it went crunch, I noticed that one of the head gaskets was leaking coolant ( it did not do this before). Once I get the time I am going to pull the sparkplugs and hope the crunch was more the sound of the motor locking up and stopping suddenly from possibly sucking some of the coolant into the cylinder and keeping it from making another revolution. I just have to muster up the nerve to be disgusted again if that is not the crunch I heard.

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Re: Timing keeps skipping

Postby virgilmobile » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:39 am

The only way the belt can slip one tooth under your conditions is a abnormal drag on the cam shaft.It would have to be a bunch and quick.
I make no assumptions,but,did you replace the 2 'O' rings on the oil tube at the top of the head?See the pix.
Can you verify the cam is being lubricated,it may be dry and heat seizing.

I would pull the valve cover and inspect the cam first.

You can turn the crank 90 degrees off TDC and operate each cam without valves hitting the pistons.
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Re: Timing keeps skipping

Postby zvacman » Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:56 am

When you inspected the belts after the timing skip were they still tight or had they loosened up?
Did you tighten the tension pulley bolts too tight?

Z

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Re: Timing keeps skipping

Postby dnvldw14874 » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:31 am

I tightened the bolts for the tensioner rollers tight enough to hold them in place. Were they supposed to float? I did replace one of the o rings but I did not know that they were o rings when I did the first head gasket. I thought it was some special rubber seal since it was smashed into the hole and by the time I got to see it looked like it was a special molded rubber seal. The first one I did not replace. The second one I had to replace, because I lost that "special molded rubber seal" and found out that it was probably just an o ring. After looking at the parts list, I confirmed that it was in fact an o ring, and replaced it. Thank you. this may help when I get around to fixing it.

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Re: Timing keeps skipping

Postby zvacman » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:10 pm

They are supposed to be able to move and have the spring return them to the belt. If yours were too tight the belt probably moved them and they weren't able to spring back into position to keep tension on the belt therefore enabling the belt to jump a tooth or more.
I hope the crunch you heard wasn't the crunch you heard.

Z

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Re: Timing keeps skipping

Postby virgilmobile » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:19 pm

The springs purpose is to pre-load the belt tension.
The tensioner is tightened to the block with 2 bolts,after securing I unload the tension on the belt by turning the cam pulley a little and check for free play on the long stretch of the belt,about 1/8" to 3/8" max.
If this was done,it should not slip AT ALL...only a severe bind at the cam shaft would put enough torque on the belt to make it jump.The belt is designed not to stretch.

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Re: Timing keeps skipping

Postby WingAdmin » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:56 pm

zvacman wrote:They are supposed to be able to move and have the spring return them to the belt. If yours were too tight the belt probably moved them and they weren't able to spring back into position to keep tension on the belt therefore enabling the belt to jump a tooth or more.
I hope the crunch you heard wasn't the crunch you heard.


Just to clarify, the tensioners are not supposed to be able to move except when the belts are being installed. The springs on the tensioners put the correct tension on the belt, and then the tensioners have bolts that tighten them in place in that position. At that point, the springs are no longer in use, until the next time the belts are changed.

dnvldw14874
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Re: Timing keeps skipping

Postby dnvldw14874 » Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:17 pm

I will try to leave the "slack" you mention next time. None of the teeth are messed up, or atleast they weren't after every time I checked after it skipped. It may be messed up now. Since it was only one belt doing the skipping, I may just replace it when I get that far again. Just to be safe, being sure to leave the "slack". Thank you guys for all of the suggestions.

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Re: Timing keeps skipping

Postby dnvldw14874 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:01 am

Wait a sec. 2 "O" rings? When I took it all apart I only saw one in each head. An idea of what size the two "O" rings are? It has always gotten plenty of lubrication though. Even after I changed out the head gaskets.

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Re: Timing keeps skipping

Postby dingdong » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:41 am

The cam pulleys are keyed to the cam shafts. Check to see if one is sheared off or worn and loose. The belt slipping on tooth probably isn't going to cause the problem you are describing.
Tom

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Re: Timing keeps skipping

Postby gilbertgloob » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:27 pm

Make sure the timing belts are seated properly in their respective pulleys before adjusting tensions. If the belt cogs are on top of the timing pulley teeth on just one pulley, they will slip into the next valley on the timing pulley during the initial start-up and the belts will be loose. Continuing to run the engine for just a moment in this condition will result in the timing belt skipping over the crank pulley many times resulting in severe cam misalignment and causing damage to the engine.

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Re: Timing keeps skipping

Postby dnvldw14874 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:33 pm

I have decided to buy two rebuilt heads. They do not have the cams in them though. Are the heads the same on both sides? Is it the cams and the cap on the backside of the one cam and the gear on the backside of the other cam what makes the difference between the right and left head? Will the two different cams fit both heads? Also, what are the sizes of the two Orings on the oil serts?




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