gl1100 ignition timming


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virgilmobile
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gl1100 ignition timming

Postby virgilmobile » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:45 pm



My acceleration problem,slow throttle response,may be related to ignition advance.I pulled the specs,but its testing vague at best.
Question,to test separate functions(mechanical and vacuum),I would guess that a reading of movement greater than 10 degrees BTDC would indicate the mechanical advance is working,assuming I unhook the vacuum advance line.Then with the vacuum line on,it can max out at 38.5 BTDC.
I wonder what limit there is on the mechanical part.
Example...mechanical only 10 Degrees BTDC at 950rpm and 22 degrees BTDC at 5000rpm
then with the vacuum line,up to 38.5 degrees BTDC maxed out air flow,full tourque.?
Also there's no mention of the vacuum readings at the carb port.I think it should be steady from 0 to 3.8" as the engine runs up.there's only a static test of the vacuum mechanics.1.6" starts moving and 3.8 ends it at the limit..
I suspect that if the vacuum is pulsing at the carb port the tubes in each carb may be plugged.
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littlebeaver
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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby littlebeaver » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:52 pm

Virilmobile, if you want to see if it's at full advance at 3000 rpms you could remove the cover of the pulse generator start your bike and actually watch the vacuum advance function while you throttle it[that's a lot of work], or you could put a timing light on your front left pulley and watch the advance while you throttle up using a littlebeaver timing stand, I've done this both ways...I removed the post on the timing because nobody seemed interested in it...If you wish to know how I do it send a pm..You could always try to see it thru a timing site cap at your crank hole, good luck with that..You will see the F-1 and F-2 marks but I can never see the one line mark as refered to in the manual for the advance..

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby littlebeaver » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:39 am

littlebeaver wrote:Virilmobile, if you want to see if it's at full advance at 3000 rpms you could remove the cover of the pulse generator start your bike and actually watch the vacuum advance function while you throttle it[that's a lot of work], or you could put a timing light on your front left pulley and watch the advance while you throttle up using a littlebeaver timing stand, I've done this both ways...I removed the post on the timing because nobody seemed interested in it...If you wish to know how I do it send a pm..You could always try to see it thru a timing site cap at your crank hole, good luck with that..You will see the F-1 and F-2 marks but I can never see the one line mark as refered to in the manual for the advance..

I wonder what it is too, I do not know the answer...[ mechanical advance] :shock: :shock:

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby virgilmobile » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:20 pm

I've got a real timing light.I think I'll experiment to find a easy test and result method.Will post the results.105 heat index slows the process down a bit.It cools down to 84 about 10 at night.

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby littlebeaver » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:31 pm

Yep it's a sweatlodge down in Texas too..good luck to you sir...

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby littlebeaver » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:58 pm

I have made adjustment to my vacuum advance to get it spot on...

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby virgilmobile » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:18 am

littlebeaver wrote:I have made adjustment to my vacuum advance to get it spot on...


I'm a little confused with that.I was under the assumption that the only "adjustments"are to move the pickup coil mounting plate position to set the timing for 10 degrees BTDC at 950rpm with no mechanical advance or vacuum advance influence.After that,the mechanical and vacuum advance are not adjustable.

I'm only looking to test if each part is operating correctly.Like the mechanical advance is locked up and the vacuum works or the other way around,or both don't work(no change in timing).or the vacuum from the carbs is wrong.

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby littlebeaver » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:26 pm

I made my adjustments on the vacuum advance by spinning the canister which will turn the threads in arm that operates the plate that you are referring to... don't be confused... :lol: You shouldn't have to do anything like that as your is factory set..... I had to rebuild my vacuum advance cannister..Use your timing light and you will see the advance or not. it's that simple..

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby virgilmobile » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:01 pm

So you adjusted the canister to achieve 38.5 BTDC degrees timing at 3000 rpm?
Can I assume that if I can achieve the 38.5 BTDC mark,that both the mechanical and vacuum are operating OK with a preset of 10 degrees BTDC?
If one or the other is malfunctioning then the max cannot be reached and if one or the other is seized in it's mount the timing may be off to start with.

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby littlebeaver » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:48 pm

Yes, you can assume that, providing your vaccum advance is not stuck or malfunctioning but testing will truly only answer that question....Virgil my experience on these canisters and diaphragms goes like this , 9 out of 10 of them I have opened up had holes in the diaphragms..I guess after 30 years of use they get tired and holes are created..They will work with a small hole in them with no problem but I have also found five holes in one diaphragm..That ain't good..So I modified my own using a diaphragm off a auto..totally modified some guys patch the holes.. :lol:

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:01 am

Finally got to do a vacuum test on the 1100.The vacuum advance is my first suspect causing poor throttle response from 1500-3500 rpm.
I pulled the hose and watched the gauge.
At 1000 rpm 0" vacuum
1500 rpm a bit of flutter around 1"
2000 rpm settled at 2.5"
3000 rpm holds near 4"
All and all I think the source is OK ...Then I pulled a vacuum on the canister.Nope,It leaks BAD.Well here's your sign.I've got a spare I'll check and replace.

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby eklimek » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:18 am

Virgilmobile

1 - Would you be so good as to repeat the same test with a repaired vacuum advance? I suspect the vacuum in cyl #3 is more than enough to offset a small leak and perfomrnace may be affected by cyl #3 lean condition. This might explain why my cyl #3 plug is always cleaner.

2 - Does it significantly affect carburetor synchronization? In other words, should one resynchronize carburetors after repairing the vacuum advance?

3 - Any instructions on rebuilding a vacuum advance? Or have I overlooked them on the site?

Thanks

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby littlebeaver » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:29 pm

There are some that say you should just block that vacuum line off at the carb, plug it..Someone said it won't make much difference..You guy's can do as you wish...I'm not a mechanic.. :D

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:11 pm

The vacuum port for the vacuum advance system is not ported to just one carb( #3).It is in fact tunneled through the assembly to a small fitting in the throat of each carb.This is done to reduce a single cylinder flutter like you would see when syncing the carbs.You wouldn't want the vacuum advance jumping back and forth while accelerating.

I don't think I'll just plug the line.Some Japanese fellow decided that to get maximum torque while accelerating,the timing must change from 10 BTDC to 38.5 BTDC.

I would actually keep it as it was designed to run.Plugging the line would mean the engine would only have max mechanical advance,maybe up to 25 BTDC.I'm expecting the extra will help overcome the doggy throttle response.

This vacuum port is not affected or will affect the carb sync as one is before the throttle and the other is after.

Some on this site has mentioned repairing vacuum canisters.I haven't tried yet.It's just a diaphragm canister.Maybe a car part may be used in it's place or Gorilla glue and latex repair.

Now who am I to argue with his engineering abilities?

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby littlebeaver » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:00 am

Virgilmobile I totally agree with you, that's why I built my own here's a photo..
and here's a photo of my timing stand....
that stand sits directly in front of the left pulley..
....If you want instructions on how I do it just ask.. In the above photo was the first canister I made so it's a little sloppy with jb weld, you will notice that I fastened the oem bottom half of the canister to a auto type cansiter, I had to open up the auto one and replace the spring, giving it the correct reading when vacuum was applied..It was an experiment that worked.. I also had to modify the arm and fastened it to the shaft of the auto one[ Tap & die] all while keeping the correct distance of the arm and room for adjusment....There are endless canisters you could use, I just got the cheapest..and I made it work..I have had it up and running now since January..I tested the vacuum the other day with my mitty vac and it was still perfect ..I would never ever ask anyone to do this, ever, what works for me may not work for you.. but if a guy gets creative he can design anything he feels like.. It's best to try an find a vacuum advance that holds a vacuum at the correct reading ..I just wanted one that would last a very very long time and never worry about those holes...

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby littlebeaver » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:51 am

One last thing, I ain't no flippin engineer.... :lol:

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby eklimek » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:29 am

love the timing stand.

The vacuum system tunnels internally to each carb? Odd solution to averaging out vacuum fluctuation among four carbs. I anticipate rebuilding carbs shortly to solve my high speed stumble and this thread is directly relevant to my understanding of the possibilities. Thanks.

Where is this passage? (Diagrammatic insertion of carb assembly not yet within my ability)

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby eklimek » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:00 am

second effort at posting diagram of carburetor assembly requires characters (hence - lorem ipsum)
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carburetor assembly
carburetor assembly

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby littlebeaver » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:41 am

Glad someone likes it.. :lol: :lol: I guess every already has one...ha ha...No just put a white line really close to the pulley straight across from the little arrow but not on the belt, do this when it's at t-1, Mark the stand with a white line using the white line from the arrow you just made, move your crank to t-2 leaving the stand where it was, now mark the pulley from the white line on your stand that you just established, you should have a line at 3 and 12 o'clock on your pulley now, hook up your timing light to #2 and start the bike, make sure it's warmed up good first, now put the light on your mark they should line up perfectly while its spinning, now throttle up and you can see the advance with your timing light goes up about an inch at 3 grand..if it doesn't advance you have a issue with your ignition or pulse generator components...Same thing for t-2... probably could use a white paint pin..

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:33 pm

eklimek wrote:love the timing stand.

The vacuum system tunnels internally to each carb? Odd solution to averaging out vacuum fluctuation among four carbs. I anticipate rebuilding carbs shortly to solve my high speed stumble and this thread is directly relevant to my understanding of the possibilities. Thanks.

Where is this passage? (Diagrammatic insertion of carb assembly not yet within my ability)



I don't have the cutaway view,but,when you pull #3 apart,you'll find that the vacuum port goes into the plenum box casting.I found the ports are a very small right angle fitting just behind the screen,before the slides.there is a pinhole in each one.As the air is drawn through each carb,it draws a vacuum on that port.Remember that there is NO vacuum on that port until the air flow goes up,eg opening the throttle.It's backwards of my 65 Rambler where it had a vacuum until I stomped on the gas.

In fact,if you spray fluid into the vacuum port,it squirts out(or should) of the fittings.Thats how I found them and that 3 were plugged.They are small.About the diameter of the inside of a ink pen(1/8")

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby littlebeaver » Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:36 pm

Aaahhhh I use a fishing line to check all my passages in my carbs, pretty simple, I take out all the cutoff valves and run a fishline thru those passages too, but that's just what I do, you guy's do as you wish...

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby eklimek » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:42 pm

"Plugging the line would mean the engine would only have max mechanical advance,maybe up to 25 BTDC.I'm expecting the extra will help overcome the doggy throttle response"

This thread remains germane to my exploration of full throttle bog issue. I suspect my problem is carburation but have discovered my vacuum advance has also failed using the "holding a vacuum test" , hence the lousy mileage. I repeated the vacuum test on the donor bike I have and it passes.

As some one said you can disconnect the vacuum advance. In fact given the frequency of the failures in 30 yr old machinery, many of us have little or vacuum advance and are unaware. It smells of gas when one decelerates. At full throttle there will be minimal or no vacuum timing advance. This allows the timing to tend toward preset (plus inertial /mechanical advance). Literature suggests delaying ignition increases torque slightly at lower rpm It allows maximum cylinder pressure to be achieved at the optimal crankshaft angular position. The connecting rod is then slightly further ATDC as combustion pressure rises and the mechanical advantage increases torque.

I doubt my problem of full throttle bog at 4,500 rpm will be cured by fixing the vacuum advance. One more thing to fix.

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby littlebeaver » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:36 am

I don't think the vacuum advance will have anything to do with your full throttle problem, could be alot of things, Spark units, coil, wires,caps, plugs, fuel pump, accelerater pump, cut off valves, out of sync. missing a oring or one has a crack in the carb, fuel filter clogs in carb jets..I'm sure you have checked these all... I sure would..that mechanical advance should be cleaned up too, on all these bikes ... Every last one of them, they should at least be inspected, 5 out of 10 folks won't do it because it's too much work.., should have seen the crud I got out of mine, I wish now that I took some photo's of it ..wow... was it a mess..It's a hard job to get to it, but how else is someone to know if it's dirty or not.. But then again I could be wrong on all of this.. :shock: And test all your plugs like the pulse generator one yellow wire from stator ect. ect.Oh and hey look at that main fuse it might have a small crack in it..Who knows..

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby virgilmobile » Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:55 am

"""At full throttle there will be minimal or no vacuum timing advance."""

I'm not sure about that.The vacuum advance circuit is not related to manifold vacuum after the throttle valve,but is varied by air flow into the carb before the slides."In theory" the vacuum should increase(I verified this)as the air flow increases with engine demand.More air,more vacuum.
My 1100 started to pull a vacuum at 1200 rpm and peaked at 4" around 3000 rpm

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Re: gl1100 ignition timming

Postby eklimek » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:25 am

The literature suggests vacuum advance is a function of throttle position. I guess the only way to be sure is to use a timing light. In my case I will have to first repair it . Again this may be relevant to my issue with full throttle bog which I think may be carburetor, not timing. Timing should result in progressive loss of power with rpm. I fall flat unless increase the rpm slowly to about 3/4 WOT.

http://www.mrgasket.com/Portals/0/downl ... i_6010.pdf




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