I call upon the starter experts!


Information and questions on GL1100 Goldwings (1980-1983)
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crisco
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:33 pm
Location: Sarasota FL
Motorcycle: '83 GL1100 Aspencade

I call upon the starter experts!

Postby crisco » Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:16 am



1983 gl1100 standard

Had the sluggish starter problems, rebuilt as per the amazing walk through on this site. Had no trouble at all with directions or any part of the process. Put everything back together clean and nice, reinstalled on bike, problem no better and almost worse. Took Starter back off and apart once again, same result. Now it's on the bench for the third time.

I'm measuring a dead short (no resistance) between starter ground and the positive terminal when starter is on or off the bike - but only when starter is fully assembled. When taken apart nothing appears shorted. I've tested the brush plate assembly, no shorts. The positive brush insulator appears to be functioning fine - can't make it short at all. Also the pos brush wires aren't hitting the rear housing on reassembly, I've checked for sure.

Under the brush plate where the coils are I found some bits of solder (on second/third disassembly, after it was totally cleaned) so it would make me say maybe something's arching? I can't see where, no burnt spots that I can find.

I need some serious help here - I've run out of ideas. I've tried reassembly of the starter, checking resistance at every step, trying to find clue. I get around 2.5 - 6 or 8 ohms across the whole thing, right up until it's all together. Can any of ya'll tell me what resistance you get across your starters? And can anyone with more DC motor experience shed some light on what I'm missing here?

Thanks much guys!
Chris



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RBGERSON
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had every year from 75 to 83

Re: I call upon the starter experts!

Postby RBGERSON » Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:54 am

Something in here may help..cleaning up the commutator deepening the grooves??

Rebuilding a Goldwing Starter (This article refers to the 1000-1200 Goldwings)

Yes... You can (in most cases) rebuild the starter yourself. Before you go digging into the starter, though, be sure to rule out any associated hardware first. Four items of concern need to be checked before digging into the starter:

1.
The "kill switch" located on the handlebar.
2.
The starter button.
3.
The starter relay.
4.
"Hot" wire going into starter.

If any of the three are defective you will not hear an audible "click" when you depress the starter button. IF YOU DO NOT HEAR A CLICK or the starter does not attempt to spin, check items 1-4 first...

The kill switch and starter button can be checked by taking the assembly apart and using a multi-meter to measure voltage going into and away from the switches. If those check out "OK" move to the starter relay (MANY times, the starter relay and not the starter is the problem). The starter relay is located under the left side cover near the battery. I can't remember off-hand, but it should be a round or square gizmo with a "hot' wire running directly to it from the battery. Double check the connections going into the relay. Also, check to make sure the "master" fuse located on the starter relay is still good and hasn't been blown. This fuse looks like a metal "spade" approximately 1 inch in length. It's designed to burn through if it gets too hot. If the starter relay checks out, move on to the starter. Most of the time, if you replace the starter brushes, you will have a dependable starter for a few more years (the replacement brushes aren't as "hard" and will wear out quicker).

Starter/ electrical system close up: Honda Service Manual page 17-3. Click to enlarge. Image will open in new window.

See "Goldwing starter removal" to see how the starter comes out without having to remove the engine... SHEESH!

I recommend before going on, that you head to the Honda shop and buy their "Starter Rebuild Kit".... The "kit" is usually no more than new brushes and springs, but hopefully, this is all you'll need. You should be able to get this kit for around 20 bucks at your handy Hondoo dealership.

Once the starter is out, you'll notice that the starter is built in three pieces:
Starter/ electrical system close up: Honda Service Manual page 17-3. Click to enlarge. Image will open in new window.

The "cone" (where the output shaft is), the body (which houses the armature and field coil), and the rear (which is where the brushes are located). A word of caution! Keep a hammer punch handy because the bolts holding the starter together have screw heads that are easily stripped. I normally hammer punch 'em right from the start to break 'em loose (before I break 'em off) =) On a bench or table top, remove the long screws holding the starter together. After the screws are removed, grasp the starter in your hands and gently but firmly pull the starter apart. Concentrate on removing the "butt" of the starter first, as this is the end where the brushes are located. Don't freak if the starter smells "burned" when you pull it apart. (That's normal... To a degree) =) There's lotsa' goop and yucky stuff inside... The starter brushes will be mounted to a plate sitting inside the "butt". Replacement is pretty straightforward. Just unscrew the originals and insert the newbies.

CAUTION: There are lots of little shims located at the base of the armature. Make sure you put the exact number of shims back in that you took out or the armature can bind making for a very sad afternoon.

NNNNOOOWWW, up to this point, we've assumed the reason for your starter woes are worn brushes...... HOWEVER, armatures DO wear out (unfortunately).... To check your armature, do the following things:

1. Remove the armature from the case (Be careful not to twist the soldered connection that allows the hot wire from the battery to be bolted to the starter). Don't forget your spacers (shims)!
2.
Measure the diameter of the commutator and height of the segments above the insulation. (The commutator is the doo hickey on the end that the brushes sit against... You should have a minimum height of 2 mm between the insulation and top of the bars).
3.
If the space is thinner than 2 mm, you can use a very thin hacksaw blade (I use a Dremel tool... It's easier) and undercut the spaces...
4.
Inspect the commutator bars for discoloration. Discoloration along the edge of the bars indicates high resistance (Not good)... Bars discolored in PAIRS indicate grounded or open armature coils (Also not good!)... Don't use emery or sandpaper on the commutator bars as this will rough 'em up and eat up the starter brushes in no time.
5.
Check for continuity between pairs of commutator bars, and also between commutator bars and armature shaft.
6.
REPLACE the starter motor if armature coils are open, or shorted to the armature shaft.


Commutator close up: Honda Service Manual page 17-7. .

IF the armature checks out, move onto the Field Coil... The field coil is the grouping of wires wound inside the starter case... Check for continuity from the cable terminal to the motor case and from the cable terminal to the brush wire. REPLACE the starter motor if the field coil does not show continuity, or if it is shorted to the motor case. OKAY....... Ya' got a lot more than you expecting, huh? =) Take your time, be gentle, and watch all of your little bits n' pieces, and you should be able to squeeze at least another 40,000 miles out of your starter before you have to replace it. I rebuilt mine THREE times over 12 years before the commutator was so worn that I couldn't use a hack saw on it anymore. During those years, I was able to put nearly 120,000 trouble-free miles on my scooter.
Checking the field coil: Honda Service Manual page 17-7.
Attachments
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

FAIR WINDS,
RB

RexAubrey
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Re: I call upon the starter experts!

Postby RexAubrey » Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:43 pm

i just finished a rebuild on my starter. i pulled the starter and when opening it up found that the connector to the terminal from the starter body had been broken and was no longer making a connection. i solved this by crimping then soldering on a new connector. the new connector was a bit to wide so i had to trim it down. after cleaning up the starter i put it back together and had the same problem you have. i opened it back up and found that even after trimming down the connector it was still shorting to the case. all i did was take black electricians tape and insulated the wire in the starter body and then the connector point after all connections were made. the starter works like a champ now. I also wrapped some tape around the area where the the positive wire comes up past the plate just to be sure it was not shorting there and checked inside the end cap to ensure the factory insulation tape was still in place on the inside of the end cap near the positive connection when assembled.

Hope this helps

Rex
Rex
1983 GoldWing Interstate, 1982 GoldWing Aspencade, 1981 Yamaha 550 Maxim, 1979 Yamaha 650 Special

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virgilmobile
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Re: I call upon the starter experts!

Postby virgilmobile » Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:31 pm

crisco wrote:I need some serious help here - I've run out of ideas. I've tried reassembly of the starter, checking resistance at every step, trying to find clue. I get around 2.5 - 6 or 8 ohms across the whole thing, right up until it's all together. Can any of ya'll tell me what resistance you get across your starters? And can anyone with more DC motor experience shed some light on what I'm missing here?

Thanks much guys!
Chris


I measured my operating gl1100 starter and my spare,they both measure 0.2 ohm.As close to a short as you can get.This is normal,it has some very large wires in it and draws a lot of power.
If your starter drags,if you haven't already,suspect the front and rear bushings worn.They bench spin OK but load on one side when turning the engine.The bushing may be oval in shape.

crisco
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Re: I call upon the starter experts!

Postby crisco » Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:10 am

Thanks for all the great info, all! After church this morning I'll be back in the garage, and I'll check into the multiple tips and let everyone know what I come up with.

virgilmobile: I spoke to a few guys on the phone about this, and one of them suggested the bushings as well. I put the armature into the tale cap bushing without the brush plate or anything else installed. The armature wiggled around like crazy - more then 1/8th inch at the other end, almost 3/16'th of play at the other end. The theory is that once fully assembled, the armature is able to short against the coils in main body for lack of proper location by out of spec bushings.

There's a few starter/alternator rebuild shops here in town, I think I'll just drive the parts over to one and see if they think I'm on the right track.

For clairity - whether it shows an electrical short or not (I understand that it's a very high current draw hence a really low resistance) it "acts" shorted. When power is directly applied (even on the bench) the starter only moves a tick, and the connections arc like mad, and everything heats up fast. Obviously dangerous, something's dead shorting inside.

Thanks for the help guys - if the answer's just buying one I'm fine with doing that, but I hate replacing it without knowing exactly what went wrong, and that I couldn't have fixed it.

(edited for spelling)

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virgilmobile
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Re: I call upon the starter experts!

Postby virgilmobile » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:24 am

When you energize the windings it turns into one heck of a magnet,this is what rotates the core till it lands on the next brush contact.It changes polarity and moves the core again.
By what you said,I think the core(from bad bushings)is getting stuck to the outside.It turns by hand but jams when energized.

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littlebeaver
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Re: I call upon the starter experts!

Postby littlebeaver » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:00 pm

Rex you may want to remove the ground wire at the frame and clean really well ...Good luck...

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mcasteel
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Re: I call upon the starter experts!

Postby mcasteel » Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:11 pm

When my starter went out I looked at rebuilding it myself and looked at buying a new starter. I hit ebay just for the heck of it and found a new (not rebuilt) starter for $99 compared to other brand name sites for $200+. Bought it the $99 starter from ebay, put that bad boy on and have had no issues starting which is kinda cool since if you want to ride you gotta start the puppy up first! :D
"I'm a single tail light in the wind"
"Keep the shiny side up"
"Pride is something you earn or achieve, not something you attain by accident of birth" - George Carlin

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crisco
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:33 pm
Location: Sarasota FL
Motorcycle: '83 GL1100 Aspencade

Re: I call upon the starter experts!

Postby crisco » Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:57 pm

Yep gentlemen, it's the bushing.

How's this look for buying one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Honda-St ... 1465wt_941

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mcasteel
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Re: I call upon the starter experts!

Postby mcasteel » Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:49 pm

Hey crisco, go for it!! Like I said, I got mine from ebay and have not had a moments trouble.
"I'm a single tail light in the wind"
"Keep the shiny side up"
"Pride is something you earn or achieve, not something you attain by accident of birth" - George Carlin

AMA / NRA / BSA

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littlebeaver
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Re: I call upon the starter experts!

Postby littlebeaver » Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:10 am

I gotta say, it's way cool having guy's like Virgilmobile explaining stuff, sure make's me understand stuff better so if it ever happens to me I have a heads up, cool.. Yes, get something to start that bike, pushing it and popping the clutch to start it get's old after a while..ha ha...No, if you get this starter can you tell us how it works out for you or write a review..Thanks just kidding on pushing the bike..

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guitarlos
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Re: I call upon the starter experts!

Postby guitarlos » Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:31 am

I bought one from a company called DB Electric out of TN, awesome product and had it shipped to me in two days. I tried to look them up on eBay, but they dont sell there anymore. I dont know as to why.




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