83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed


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83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby Newport » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:51 pm



After a bare frame rebuild on an 83A I have everything working except the compressor system.
The air pressure indication in conjunction with the temp gauge and the compressor all worked when I stripped the bike.
My current situation is this:
Relay has been replaced and confirmed to be correct.
The pressure indicating bars appear momentarily when the ignition is switched on as the digital dash goes through a self check so they do work.
As I had some doubts about the digital dash (purely based on not being able to find any other problem) I purchased another used one and installed it and it acts just the same as the original remembering that the original worked all OK prior to strip down.
I have power to the relay with ignition on via the black/brown wire if you have a diagram.
The green wire from the pump switch also has been confirmed as sending the secondary power to the relay.
The air pump will not work from the switch unless I place an earth wire on the back of the relay where the Green/Yellow wire is.
I run that earth direct to the frame and the air pump comes on when I press the button but still have no indication on the digital dash.

The Green/Yellow wire goes into the digital dash for which I have no circuit. If anyone knows of a drawing that is available I would like to know.
I think that this Green/Yellow wire should effect an earth inside the dash and bring the bars up on the temp gauge. Of course I could be incorrect.
I have checked the output of the air pressure sensor as outlined on page 12-50 of the workshop manual and although this bike does not have a pressure gauge I can confirm thae voltage goes to a bit over 3 volts.
I have also checked the switch as per the same referenced page.

No matter how small or seemingly obvious the advice you give believe me it will be welcomed and appreciated.
Someone out there will know the answer but I am stumped!



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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby WingAdmin » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:26 pm

I traced the schematic and confirmed what you've done thus far is correct. The problem, as you've encountered, is that the green/yellow, black/brown and light blue wires all just run into the digital dash, where they do who knows what. The fact that it runs when you ground the green/yellow wire says to me that your wiring is correct; it's something in the dash itself that is disabling the relay by not grounding that wire.

I did have a look in the owners manual and saw this text: "The air suspension system will only operate if the ignition key is in the ON position with the motorcycle stopped."

So assuming you are doing this already, I would look at anything else that is not functioning correctly on the dash - is there some reason the dash thinks the motorcycle is not in the correct mode to allow the use of the compressor? If so, is there a wire that might not be connected correctly to it that may make it think that?

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby Newport » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:11 pm

I thank you WingAdmin for your reply and the time I know you spent trying to assist.
Something else that has occured with both digital instrument panels is when I run the bike and it warms up and registers on the temp gauge I only get one bar showing.
It will start with the lower bar as it should but then as the engine gets warmer and the temp gauge moves upwards to the second, third bar etc the only bar that shows is the higher one meaning that the first, second etc disappear as it moves upwards and I believe that to be incorrect.
With two digital instrument panels behaving exactly the same it is always possible that they could have a common fault but I believe this to be unlikely especially given that the bars for the pressure indication are clear when the instrument panel starts up.
If I cannot get this dash system to work then I have no idea how I will ever work the suspension system unless I install a pressure gauge and given that I was trying to keep it original that is not what I want to do.
There were only 7 of this mdel imported to Australia in 1983 so it is quite a rare model down under.

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby WingAdmin » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:16 pm

The number one thing I start looking for when I see multiple things not working correctly is a bad ground. Have you checked all of the grounds feeding the display unit?

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby Newport » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:36 pm

This bike has two main earth points. The battery and one other.
The wiring diagram shows all earh wires going to one common point which I have connected at a point near to the ignition coils.
If I take a reading of OHMS between that point and the battery negative it shows good continuity.
I do however agree that a bad earth can do strange things.
As all electrical items such as lights earth via this common point and they all work fine it does seem that the earth is ok.
The frame has been powder coated and I removed the powder coating from the earth point and run a thread tap through the earth securing point to ensure a clean earth.
I am struggling with this one!

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby N2PPN » Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:12 am

Silly question...


Does the bike need to be running and in neutral for the suspension system to operate??? if there is a "protective" circuit that disables the suspension system from operating at any other times, is it controlled by a "lockout" relay system?? could there be a switch contact interconnected to the ignition circuit, speedometer and the neutral indicator to insure no movement and engine in neutral and running??

Sounds more like a logic problem...a three input high to put the system into operable suspension adjustment...

Can you "trick" all these "inputs" to there desired states to determine if there is an electrical fault as opposed to a mechanical fault (bad relay or device)... if the pressure transducer produces a positive voltage when pressure increases (this would mean that the pressure transducer has a 12 VDC source and a sensor output wire) then a variable DC power supply and the second dashboard would allow for some bench testing to determine if the signal from the sensor is being received when the other parameters are met (all done on test bench)

Just some thoughts, I tend to ramble... hope it sparks some insight...


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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby Newport » Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:05 pm

Reply to N2PPN:Thanks for your input: There is no reason that the bike needs to be running. It only needs to be in nuetral on the centre stand. The system on these bikes as with all models will operate without the bike on the centre stand but the readings you get will not be correct.
You did make me wonder if there may have been an issue with the nbuetral switch/indicator so I went a tried the system in every gear position where of course it shyouyld not work but anything is worth a try.
I did not get any good surprises when I did this. The nuetral indicator and all gear position indicators work as they should so I believe this part of the system to be A OK.
The air pressure sensor (transducer) all seems to work as it should but of course what does and/or should happen inside the electronic dashboard remains a mystery without circuit drawings and all Honda ever wanted anyone to do was buy a new instrument panel if they had a problem but that is now a mute point as they are no longer available.
I will further consider your input and carry out any further checks from your prompts.

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby WingAdmin » Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:55 pm

I know my 1500 (and my 1100, until I rewired it) required that the bike has to be in "P" in order to operate the compressor.

To me, this is moronic, as you are drawing down your battery using the compressor. I rewired my 1100 so that the compressor could be run anytime the bike was in "ON", so I could run the engine while running the compressor.

I haven't had a look at my 1500 schematic yet, but I suspect I'll do the same thing to it.

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby Newport » Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:49 am

Reply to Wingadmin:Now if you had your bike in "P" I can only assume that you have an automatic!
I reckon you probably meant "N" for nuetral.
I can easily wire the bike so that the compressor will run at any time but at this stage I still cannot get the pressure indicating bars to register.
I will keep "playing" (it is so much not fun) and if I can find a way to get the pressure bars to register then that is what I will do.
This has just about brought the resto to a standstill as I have the fairing ready to instal but cannot do so until I finish playing with the instrument panel.
Please keep sending ideas as they are appreciated.

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby Newport » Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:54 am

To N2PPN:I did a voltage check on the input to the air pressure sensor and it is 5 volts which makes sense given that the maximum output is around 3 volts.
The voltage supply comes from the digital instrument panel electronics so there must be a voltage reducer built into it for this circuit.
If any 83A owner has found the supply to be a different voltage I will be intereested but for the moment I will go with 5 volts being correct.


N2PPN wrote:Silly question...


Does the bike need to be running and in neutral for the suspension system to operate??? if there is a "protective" circuit that disables the suspension system from operating at any other times, is it controlled by a "lockout" relay system?? could there be a switch contact interconnected to the ignition circuit, speedometer and the neutral indicator to insure no movement and engine in neutral and running??

Sounds more like a logic problem...a three input high to put the system into operable suspension adjustment...

Can you "trick" all these "inputs" to there desired states to determine if there is an electrical fault as opposed to a mechanical fault (bad relay or device)... if the pressure transducer produces a positive voltage when pressure increases (this would mean that the pressure transducer has a 12 VDC source and a sensor output wire) then a variable DC power supply and the second dashboard would allow for some bench testing to determine if the signal from the sensor is being received when the other parameters are met (all done on test bench)

Just some thoughts, I tend to ramble... hope it sparks some insight...


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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby WingAdmin » Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:53 pm

Newport wrote:Reply to Wingadmin:Now if you had your bike in "P" I can only assume that you have an automatic!
I reckon you probably meant "N" for nuetral.
I can easily wire the bike so that the compressor will run at any time but at this stage I still cannot get the pressure indicating bars to register.
I will keep "playing" (it is so much not fun) and if I can find a way to get the pressure bars to register then that is what I will do.
This has just about brought the resto to a standstill as I have the fairing ready to instal but cannot do so until I finish playing with the instrument panel.
Please keep sending ideas as they are appreciated.


No, I mean "P" as in the "Park" position on the ignition switch. Turn the key switch to "off", rotate the handlebars all the way to the left or right, then turn the keys witch to the left past "Off" - there are two more positions, both of which lock the handlebars in the locked position. One is the "Lock" position and the other is the "P" position. When in "P", your tail lights come on (along with a few other things), and your compressor can be used.

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby Newport » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:17 pm

Further reply to Wingadmin:Now I feel like a smart ar--!
I did not even think of the ignition lock when you referred to a P position.
The handbook for my 83A states: "The air suspension will only operate if the ignition key is in the ON position with motorcycle stopped"
Maybe the 83 was different to the 82.
I had never previously tried turning the key to the P or Lock positions which I have just done and can confirm that the tail light does come on in the P position but this makes no difference to the air compressor system which does not work in that position either and from the handbook I am inclined to believe that it is not designed to operate in the P position.
As always your input is greatly appreciated.


WingAdmin wrote:
Newport wrote:Reply to Wingadmin:Now if you had your bike in "P" I can only assume that you have an automatic!
I reckon you probably meant "N" for nuetral.
I can easily wire the bike so that the compressor will run at any time but at this stage I still cannot get the pressure indicating bars to register.
I will keep "playing" (it is so much not fun) and if I can find a way to get the pressure bars to register then that is what I will do.
This has just about brought the resto to a standstill as I have the fairing ready to instal but cannot do so until I finish playing with the instrument panel.
Please keep sending ideas as they are appreciated.


No, I mean "P" as in the "Park" position on the ignition switch. Turn the key switch to "off", rotate the handlebars all the way to the left or right, then turn the keys witch to the left past "Off" - there are two more positions, both of which lock the handlebars in the locked position. One is the "Lock" position and the other is the "P" position. When in "P", your tail lights come on (along with a few other things), and your compressor can be used.

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby N2PPN » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:53 pm

Read a posting on some other Goldwing website (yes I DO visit other places) and there was a mention about the "Park" position fuse being a culprit in the compressor troubles.... perhaps a further investigation of this "P" position is in order???


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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby Newport » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:09 am

There is no specific Park position fuse. There is a fuse for PARKING but that refers to the park lights which all work correctly.
But that's Ok, kleep the ideas coming as you might just find the answer.
Where was the article that you refer to?

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby virgilmobile » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:08 pm

I'll jump in...Did you find the problem??? Can I help with a specific pinout,color code,or voltages?

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby Newport » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:46 pm

Reply to virgilmobile:Of course you may jump in. The more the merrier as they say and no, I have not found the problem so if you find I will have a medal cast in your honor!

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby virgilmobile » Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:39 pm

OK.I'll go through your original post and later info posted to come up with a diagnostic procedure.I will not assume anything,so pardon me if sound rude or have you re-test something you already tested.This will be a process of elimination.
Some basic info Please.
All functions worked before rebuild?
What functions of the display do or do not work right?
Radio,fuel,temp,etc

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby Newport » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:36 pm

Reply to virgilmobileYes all worked oK before I stripped the bike.
Status right now:
Bars for the pressure gauge both front and rear appear at the temp gauge when the instrument panel first lights up after switching ignition on.
Compressor will not run as it should in ignition position with bike in nuetral.
The only way I can get the compresor to run is by installing a direct earth from the relay to ground and then it will run at anytime by pressing the increase button but still no indication on the instrument panel.
When engine is running only one bar at a time will show on the temp gauge. It does move upwards as the engine temp increases but loses all the bars except the top one at the given temperature.
Two instrument panels have exactly the same behaviour.
I have the original plus one I purchased through Ebay.
The fairing is not on the bike but is assembled ready for installation when I get the current issue sorted.
I did a temporary connection and the radio worked ok.
The clock did not work when I pressed the function button but I know it did not work when I purchased the bike. I have another clock to try at some time but do not see this connected in anyway with current problem.
I look forward to and thank you for your input and will certainly not mind going over my previous checks.

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby virgilmobile » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:57 pm

Thanks,this is helpful info....
"Bars for the pressure gauge both front and rear appear at the temp gauge when the instrument panel first lights up after switching ignition on."
This would indicate that the self test mode of the processor passed.usually a 5 volt regulated circuit.needing 8 volts minimum to operate.

"The only way I can get the compressor to run is by installing a direct earth from the relay to ground and then it will run at anytime by pressing the increase button but still no indication on the instrument panel."
The programming process is not receiving the correct input signals to allow a ground path for the pump.Normal input signals can vary from 0 to 12 volts.

"When engine is running only one bar at a time will show on the temp gauge. It does move upwards as the engine temp increases but loses all the bars except the top one at the given temperature.
Two instrument panels have exactly the same behavior."
Usually indicates a improper process from the display driver circuit.Possibly voltage related.

"I did a temporary connection and the radio worked ok." Interesting enough,may be related???
"The clock did not work when I pressed the function button but I know it did not work when I purchased the bike."also of interest.It relies on regulated voltage and a clock processor chip.

I'll look at the schematic for test points and voltage requirements in the morning and post what I find.
Unfortunately the schematic for the display interface is not something I can find but the point is mute anyways.You have 2 that do the same thing and it did work before you restored it.
Not to be condescending but here goes...If it worked before you fixed it,the problem has to be something you fixed.Now , lets figure out what "we" missed.
I'm sorry but I had to mention it.Often Im absolutely sure...yet find it is one of those..aw ****,how did I miss that :roll: God I hope nobody saw that one. :D

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:30 am

Quick question....Can you turn on the key,spin the front wheel several times and verify that the spedo is working? Either by MPH/KPH or trip odometer.
Yes this is a test.It will verify one way the computer knows that the bike is stopped.

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:50 am

OK here goes.I'll try not to ramble too much. :roll:
First ....were dealing with a computer attached to a motorcycle so use a digital volt meter when measuring voltages.
Because we are dealing with small voltages needed by the computer**** YOU MUST reference ALL measurements to the computers ground****.
There is only ONE I can determine by the schematic.It's on the green plug with 6 wires.It's the G/Bl wire.

Measure for the 2@ 12 volt power lines under running conditions,Key on....
Look at the spedo sensor wiring to verify if it is working.
Look at the neutral diode.It also feeds into the LCD
Verify the G wire goes to ground when in neutral.
Attachments
test point
test point
plugs of interest
plugs of interest
more plugs
more plugs
wire guide
wire guide

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby Newport » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:10 pm

Reply to Virgilmobile:
I must first recognise your effort which is truly outstanding.

Now let's see what I can answer:
I took a battery voltage reading first and that was 12.32 volts
Relative to your first illustration:
With the key on and measuring voltage using the Green/Black wire in the green 6 pin plug as the earth point I get the following voltage readings:
Red Wire: 12.25 volts, Black Brown Wire: 12.07 volts.

Relative to your second illustration:
The red wire from main fuse gave a reading of 12.25 volts.
The Blue/Black wire from ignition fuse with key on gave a reading of 11.96 volts
I was unsure what check you may have wanted on the Yellow/Blue and Yellow/Green wires but I can tell you that the tacho all works correctly.
The voltage to the air pressure sensor via the Black/Brown wire gave a reading of 4.98 volts.

Relative to 3rd and 4th illustrations:
The Black/Brown from the LCD that have you stated should be 10 volts actually has 10.88 volts with key on and retains .036 volts with key off.
I have not been able to check the voltage generated by the front wheel but can probably rig something up if you want me to follow that through.
The Green/Black wire (common ground for wheel sensor unit) has continuity.

Moving on to the green 6 pin plug:
The Green/Black (Common Ground) has continuity
The Yellow/White from fuel sender has continuity
The Green/Blue from Temp sender could only be checked from the red plug connector in this circuit as I would need to remove carbs to get right back to the temp sender. What I was able to check has continuity.
The White/Brown that you mention for the turn signal cancelling unit is actually a White/Black and has continuity.
I do need help in locating the diode in the start circuit to check the Light Green/Red wire. Where is this?
The Light Blue from the air pressure sending unit has continuity.

Moving to the gear slection wiring:
All gear postions indicate as they should on the instrument panel including the nuetral light.
I also checked continuiy and loss of continuity in all gear postions and all is correct.

Summary: Can you tell me where to measure from that diode?
I do hope that may reporting is clear but do not hesitate to ask for more information and thanks again.

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:36 pm

Every test you did is correct and would be normal.Do test the pulses from the wheel.we don't want to leave any input open.I don't know where the diode is.It usually hangs off the harness .The part is small and plugs into a socket .2 wires.It' about 1/4" x 1/4" x 1" .so far everything is ok.The 2 wires are for the tach and have a 400 volt pulse on them.no touchy.

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby Newport » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:23 am

Reply to virgilmobile:
I have a slight delay!
My multi meter just failed so I will be off to Radio Parts in the morning to buy myself another Christmas present.
I do not think Santa is coming anyway.
I managed to run up the front wheel and wondered why I could not get a voltage reading although the speedometer was registering OK. I then moved onto some continuity checks and realised that the meter had failed.
To do the front wheel I removed the calipers so there was no drag, jacked the wheel clear of the floor and sat my bench grinder on the floor with an 8 inch wire wheel and run it on the tire. Presto it worked just fine.
More tomorrow.

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Re: 83 GL1100A Electrical wizard needed

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:16 pm

Keep in mind while testing.It,s necessary to test the voltages while actually trying to operate the pump.Under static, no load condition,a bad connection will pass voltage and fail as soon as a load is demanded.So if the 12 volts are there with the key on,it may fail when a load is demanded.We find this with hairline cracked dog bone fuses.




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