Starter Stud


Information and questions on GL1100 Goldwings (1980-1983)
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littlebeaver
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Starter Stud

Postby littlebeaver » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:18 pm



If the starter stud has a bad connection or maybe grounding at the case, will it cause my Regulator Rectifier to go to a higher reading like 15.23volts...



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Re: Starter Stud

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:32 pm

NO.period....Even if the starter were completely shorted out it would only affect the starting.The starter relay completely removes the starter from the rest of the bikes electrical system.
Can you re-cap your problem,what you have tested,how it was tested,and the results. :?:

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby littlebeaver » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:05 am

I just got a brand new reg.rect. because I thought the other two were bad, I ruled out the three yellow wires or a bad stator, I tested them to ground and nothing then I tested the continuity to each of them using my digital ohm meter and it was 001 ohms. it's shows good I ruled out the stator or yellow wires.. I have ruled out grounds because I always have clean ground to frame and and I checked the two green ground wires that come out of the RR plugin to the frame, the starter has always fired up with no problems...the only thing that concerns me is how I wired the red ignition wire and the RR wire together into one line to the fuse, then to positve post..Ford Soleoid

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:41 pm

Forget about the solenoid.It's just a great big switch.
I guess that you are measuring the high voltage directly across the 2 battery posts by your description.

Everything you describe in your testing method is good and the process of elimination leads me to 2 possible problems.
First and foremost,the voltage is a bit high at over 15 volts,meaning the regulator is not sensing the actual voltage at the battery and is clamping it off a bit late.

With this detail,I suspect that there is a voltage drop between the battery post and the "sense" or ignition wire that goes to the regulator.

In theory,the regulator monitors the ignition line to determine when to start to shunt the stator off to ground.
Iffin I were a betting man,I suspect that the ignition line is being loaded down or has a bad connection in the ignition switch,fuse holder,or glass fuse.
The only other problem area could be the fuseholder used to bypass the original fuse.This holder MUST be a heavy duty 30 amp with at least very short #14 wire.I prefer using the large ones with a #10 wire.All wires,like the 2 red ones must/should be soldered to eliminate any loss of connection.

Remember any voltage loss or drop in the system from the battery,through the fuse,to the switch and back to the regulator will show up as a increase in output voltage from the regulator.So a 1.2 volt drop to the regulator translates to a output increase of the same.
I would measure voltage drop using the DVM from the + post of the battery to the BK wire on the regulator under running conditions.You shouldn't see more than about 0.5 volts.

I would have you try one simple test .
Locate and cut the BK ignition wire going to the regulator,tape the harness wire off and attach a #14 wire directly to the regulator wire.With your DVM attached to the 2 battery posts,Start the bike and then hook the #14 wire directly to the battery post.Rev the bike and measure the volts.It should now max out around 14 volts.Hook it back to the harness wire and re-measure.If it goes back over 15 volts you defiantly have a voltage drop causing the problem.
Let me know what happens so I can figure out a good next step.

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby WingAdmin » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:51 pm

virgilmobile wrote:I would have you try one simple test .
Locate and cut the BK ignition wire going to the regulator,tape the harness wire off and attach a #14 wire directly to the regulator wire.With your DVM attached to the 2 battery posts,Start the bike and then hook the #14 wire directly to the battery post.Rev the bike and measure the volts.It should now max out around 14 volts.Hook it back to the harness wire and re-measure.If it goes back over 15 volts you defiantly have a voltage drop causing the problem.
Let me know what happens so I can figure out a good next step.


This is precisely the problem I was having with my 1100. I ended up using the black ignition wire to energize a relay coil, and the relay itself switched a (fused) feed directly from the battery positive terminal that then fed the sense wire on the regulator. Solved the problem.

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:47 pm

The bikes electrical system is just adequate when new..Add 30 or so years to crimped connectors,oxidized copper wires,lugs,socket pins and contaminated switching,the individual minor voltage losses add up to poor overall system quality.
So upgrading,and modifying is in order.

I use my new main #10 wire buss off the battery and 30 amp relays to improve lighting and ignition problems too.It's just too much trouble to redo every connector on the whole bike to make like new.

I found the 88 has a inherent low volt to the coils when cranking due to the expanse of control wiring involved,eg.bank angle sensor and kill switch.

I used the ignition wire at the module to operate a relay to switch battery volts direct to the module.
Same safety features,just better volts during cranking.

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby littlebeaver » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:59 pm

Wow ....Ok awesome Virgil, I have the starter out for inspection and clean up right now so it might be a couple of day's, I also ordered another starter relay with the fuse attached instead of my set up...I know its not the relay it works fine but with the new one I can plug in direct with no breaks or added connection in the wires...Have you guy's gone back to the "Concern with my RR" post to see my wiring to the solenoid connection...My concern is the red wire and the red and white wires being shared before the fuse like that...Could that be the problem...The post should be here in the 1100's section..Thanks guy's for the help, I think I'm on the right track now to fix this once and for all, So you are saying to cut the black wire between the plastic plugin and the RR itself, tape up the one going back into the plugin and run the other to the batteries Positive post then test it running..Right, then do the same thing on the wire I taped up going to the ignition right..I can do that man...Thanks, that will tell me a lot..I have been measuring between the posts at the battery when running that is correct sir..

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:13 pm

My concern is the red wire and the red and white wires being shared before the fuse like that...Could that be the problem

Not a problem in the wiring method as long as the fuseholder is designed to handle 30 amp.I've done the same thing on my 1100.

Cut the wire on the harness side of the plug so the regulator can still be un-plugged.

You want the test wire from the battery to go directly to the regulator by its self,thus the reason to cut the bk wire loose from the harness.Then hook the bk wire back to the harness to re-test.
If this test solves the voltage problem,a fused wire and relay can be used instead of the original bk wire.
We can provide instructions if you need.

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby littlebeaver » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:41 am

Oh yeh my starter stud, I think the stud is welded to the copper wire inside the case well when I took off the nut I noticed it quite loose, I just said all man, what now, so once I get it off the bike, It's broken,,, fudge man..guy's never tighten down that lower nut too tight or you will probably snap the stud head, let my mistake stop you from making the same mistake, turns out the insulated washers that protect the stud from grounding at the case where gone..No wonder I smelled smoke once or twice... :D Well I could send off for a new starter or try to fix it, like us el cheapo dudes like to do, Now you guys can laugh if you wish or you can criticize me all you want or just get a good chuckle out of what I am trying to do to fix it, ok ready, first I'm not sure if the end part with the hole in it nearest the case by the stud comes off or out if it does, well I will weld it back but for now here's what I did.. :lol: I took some tie wire and placed it on the top of the stud and around the case so it's pushing down the stud and making good contact with the copper wire inside, I made sure it was tight.. I centered the stud in the case all proper, then I got out my favorite toys, my JB Weld ha ha, see its thick and slowly dribbles down like and old basketball player and what it's going to do is hold that stud in place and it should protect it from moving for a long time I hope,, laugh if you will my friends it's been several years now on my fan switch where I filled the cavity with JB weld on my after market fan switch and it's still working like a champ, I figure it like this, if this works then great if not then great too..It will work.. watch me find out now the other end comes off :oops: ...And I could have just welded it back :oops: ...I'll let you know tomorrow if my bike cranks up or not ..I will bet it does..I didn't release the wire until the JB Weld was completely cured.. :lol: It's a littlebeaver special :lol: ...Now for my question has anyone here ever taken that end off the case of the starter..??? Is there any quick trick and easy tip on using home made exhaust gaskets, I gotta go to Austin to get them I think..boo

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby RoadRogue » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:04 am

Hi Beave, if you get real stuck on this starter thing give me a shout . I have acouple of extra starters kicking around here for either replacement or parts or even just pictures. Let me know what you need.
Ride safe, Todd
Over night campers welcome

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby littlebeaver » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:29 am

Thanks Todd, you are a awesome fella there, the RR I got from you is good, my original one is good and I freakin bought a brand new one too, All because I don't know how to read a freakin ohm meter correctly, now I do I went to YouTube.. I'm just an idiot ...that never learned much about anything the freakin thing has like five ohm settings, this is me :shock: , but I fixed my starter man it's all repaired now that stud is welded to a flat copper wire inside the case and it broke off, I discovered that end cover nearest that stud come's out, that made it easy to weld the stud back proper and fill the inside with my Jb weld to keep that stud from going anywhere or snapping again, to test it, I took the battery out of the bike set it on the floor got my jumper cables and tested the starter and it spins on command..Now I gotta fix whatever is causing my RR to act all stupid..These guy's are helping me alot and I thank Wingadmin, and Virgil for this, I will let you know Todd if and or when I need a new or used starter...The starter is back to a quick touch of the button, even better than before, it feels like there's a spring in my starter button and by the time the button is half way back that sucker is spinning :D ., that's how quick it cranks..yepper ...I'm a happy camper this morning.. So what else have I used JB Weld on my bike, I used it to seal my vacuum advance after rebuilding it, still perfect a couple of years later, I used it to cover my solder welds on my hot yellow wires to the stator still perfect and I used it in my aftermarket fan switch to hold the studs in place for a direct plugin... and I expect it will be good for my stud in my starter too... and I fill the backs of every plastic connection I can with it so no water can get in..I just like playing with it man..Oh and I used for my inner bolt holes for my timing cover's, taking them off now takes me less than a minute... :D I like it..

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby littlebeaver » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:04 pm

Hey Virgil guess what? :D I have conducted your test and the volts do not go above 14.45 on the black wire direct to the regulator above 3k rpm's, and when testing the other side the reading went back up over 15 volts again... I have a drop somewhere in my electrical system, I have a question for Wingadmin, I assume you could never find the drop either so you went from the regulator direct to the starter relay's positive post with a fused line? Am I getting this correct..14.45 and no higher, Thank you Virgil and Wingman, awesome,, I really want to find this drop man, it's bugging me it's got to be up around the igniton somewhere..Or I should do what Wingman did and be done with it...You guy's man, before I started this investigation I knew a little on the elect. but now I'm getting it man, I already had a bout with the entire lighting system and I won, everything works correctly...Oh and I fired the bike up without the left exhaust pipe on, sounds really cool at idle, there were flames man it was so cool.. :lol: I just happen to have an extra 30amp fuse holder too... Question, is this a common problem or issue with these bikes? Man I love this site and other's too...Awesomeness Oh and I have to say, there's no way in heck I could have done this or figured this out without your help....Now to find that drop...

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby littlebeaver » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:37 pm

I'm thinking it's time to check and or take apart my ignition switch and clean up those connections and maybe take it apart for clean up the insides, maybe that will fix it, something I have not done yet...

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby littlebeaver » Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:12 am

Tonight I removed the faring and took off the ignition switch, cleaned the connections and removed the plastic case to get inside and have a look, I wasn't sure if the white plastic case comes off or not I didn't want to break anything so I just put in a little grease in and around the moving parts and buttoned it back up...Does that white plastic part come off..One thing I noticed when I put it back together # 1 always take a note of the position of the plastic part that turns with the key, I moved it and then put it back together and it was stuck, so I had to open it again and try it again and this time it works but it's a lot stiffer now than it was I will try it again tomorrow...Oh" getting that plastic cover off was a pain in the buttucks, but once you get it and grease it a little it goes on and comes off much easier..

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby littlebeaver » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:51 pm

I installed the new starter solenoid and was able to go direct with all four wires, no breaks in the line, I cleaned the ignition connectors, now on the solenoid it came with a new battery cable, and like I said the ignition switch seems much tighter and or more firm when turning the key, before it was so easy and now it feels like it has spring to it.. That black wire I had cut for the test I put it back together and started the bike, it's idling from a cold start way better now, the volts are at 14.45 or so at idle and when cranking it up about 3k and higher it's 14.90 max, now keep in mind this is without the faring on and there is no headlamp and front turn signals...So I think my problem's are all solved and I won't need to run a fused black wire to the relay after all...Problem solved... Most Awesome... :D

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby littlebeaver » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:58 pm

Virgil, WingAdmin, guess what :shock: ? Right when I think the problem is solved.. :evil: So here's what I do, I change out the RR with the brand new one because I have a new one, the freakin thing goes back up over 15volt. :twisted: So I'm tired of fudging with this and I'm going with Wingadmin. solution once and for all, I put in a fused line as he said to the starter relay...put the faring back on plugged in lights and the volts are 13.80's or so at idle and 3k it goes up to 14.50 volts or so max sounds correct to me, Perfect, thanks guy's.. Geez Weez....At least it's fixed now..In a round about way ha ha...Oh and every connection has been soldered...I'm happy..Man you guy's are good...

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby WingAdmin » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:43 am

Great, glad to hear it worked for you!

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby virgilmobile » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:17 pm

Question...."I put in a fused line as he said to the starter relay"....If I read that right,then the BK wire is hot all the time.
If that's right,the regulator may discharge the battery while shut off.
The fact that your volts returned to normal means that you can ADD a relay to the circuit to bypass the bikes wiring.It would be something like this....

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby littlebeaver » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:33 pm

Ok, so if I hook it up as shown in photo I will be good? Exactlly like that?

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby littlebeaver » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:20 pm

On the auto relay if I remember correctly the #86 plug and the #30 plug are postive......they should go from battery+ to the relay and then to the regulator ... The #87 and the #85 are negitive, now before I blow my ass up please confirm... :D

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby virgilmobile » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:46 pm

here's the print for a common relay.
Attachments

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby littlebeaver » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:56 pm

Thank you Virgil that confirms it, sorry I'm so goofy I bought a new ground wire tonight and I am cleaning the clips on the glass fuses and I'm given it one last try before install the relay.. I know these are basic question for you guy's that know this stuff, but I never really learned..Thanks again..

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby virgilmobile » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:35 pm

Not a problem.When your finished,you should have a clean battery voltage applied directly to the regulator when the key is on and the relay cuts it off with the key off.Problem fixed.

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby littlebeaver » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:14 am

Hey Virgil the relay I got mounts to the frame, is there still a need to go to a ground on #85? I don't thinks so but that's why I'm asking.. the relay is designed for 55 watt lights and or a horn circuit..it has all the typical numbers listed I figured it would work ? Oh and it has to be a 5 amp fuse in the line to battery Correct? 40 Amp 12volt relay My starter work great by the way...

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Re: Starter Stud

Postby littlebeaver » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:40 am

WingAdmin wrote:
virgilmobile wrote:I would have you try one simple test .
Locate and cut the BK ignition wire going to the regulator,tape the harness wire off and attach a #14 wire directly to the regulator wire.With your DVM attached to the 2 battery posts,Start the bike and then hook the #14 wire directly to the battery post.Rev the bike and measure the volts.It should now max out around 14 volts.Hook it back to the harness wire and re-measure.If it goes back over 15 volts you defiantly have a voltage drop causing the problem.
Let me know what happens so I can figure out a good next step.


This is precisely the problem I was having with my 1100. I ended up using the black ignition wire to energize a relay coil, and the relay itself switched a (fused) feed directly from the battery positive terminal that then fed the sense wire on the regulator. Solved the problem.

Relay coil :shock: I now know what a relay coil is, it a 12volt relay...as I know it...wingman I'm stupid you gotta use terms I can understand, but I know what a relay coil is now, ha ha ha you guy's must think I'm a moron :shock: :lol: :lol: here's the funny thing, I know what a 12 volt relay is I have used them before on my Nomad, I actually have one set up on this bike too.. Funny stuff, I must of been having a senior moment, my daughter keeps telling me" three more years" that's until I can order off the senior menu at Jim's resturant... Hey, I bet I ain't the only one that doesn't know all these tricks on this electrical system or is it just me.. :shock: :shock: :lol: :lol:I'm happy because I learned a bunch of this post..Knowledge man..




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