Rear Wheel Bearing Question


Information and questions on GL1200 Goldwings (1984-1987)
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harkgold
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Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby harkgold » Mon May 07, 2012 12:10 pm



While doing work on the rear wheel of my '84 GL1200 Interstate I came across the following notice in my Clymer's shop manual that reads as follows:

REAR HUB

Honda has determined that there was a problem with the inner rear wheel bearing on some 1984 and 1985 models and this is covered in Honda Service Bulletin GL1200 #14, dated May 1986. If you hear a clicking noise coming from the rear wheel while you are riding the bike, there is the possibility that the inner wheel bearing on the driven flange side has become loose within the hub. This problem can be solved by installing a new wheel bearing with a slightly larger (5mm) outer diameter.
This problem was corrected at no expense to the original owner by Honda. If you purchased a used 1984 or 1985 model, the original owner may have not had the problem corrected. If you are hearing the clicking noise, then you can solve the problem by installing the new larger inner wheel bearing set (part No. 42650-ML8-670. The "Rear Repair Kit" that was installed by the Honda dealer included four different items including a new driven flange (part No. 42614-ML8-670).
It is suggested that you discuss this repair kit with your Honda dealer service manager to see if you should install the entire kit or only the wheel bearings. You will need to purchase the parts since they are no longer covered by any applicable warranty.



I have checked my Honda and Haynes shop manuals looking for this same notice and I discovered this notice is not mentioned at all in either of these.


The day I brought the bike home and was pushing the bike up the driveway to the garage I noticed a clicking noise that appeared to be coming from the rear wheel.
Yesterday, when I pulled the rear wheel, and after discovering this notice in my Clymer's, I mounted the rear axle in my padded vice on my workbench and placed the rear wheel on the axle. When I gave the wheel a good spin I initially heard no clicking noise at all. I allowed the wheel to continue its decelerating spin on the axle and sure enough when the rotation reached a certain low speed rpm a very audible and prominent clicking noise was heard. I placed my hand on the end of the axle and could actually feel the vibration through my hand with each click. Then, as the rpm of the wheel dropped to a much slower speed the clicking subsided. Upon close inspection, there is no visible sign of an obviously loose bearing. However, when placing my finger inside the spine side bearing and bouncing my finger up and down vertically and horizontally I can feel and hear a very slight clicking and movement that is not present in the opposite side bearing. The opposite side bearing is smooth, solid, and quiet.

I'm wondering if any other Gold Wing members have experienced this issue.

My concern is that since the above notice mentions a 5mm larger inner bearing, will I be receive the proper bearing if I just go ahead and order a bearing set from one of the bearing suppliers. I'm afraid I will just be re-installing a new problem.

It seems every corner I turn on this project I'm running into new challenges.

Again, I appreciate your help and comments with this issue.

Harkgold :?:



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virgilmobile
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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby virgilmobile » Mon May 07, 2012 12:58 pm

5mm larger? I wonder how it would even fit into the casting :?:
I'd be tempted to extract the original bearing,measure it and get a replacement.Especially sense that you mention that the roller seems loose.It's part number can be found on the rubber seal.
Google the number to get more info.I got replacement bearings for my 1100 at the local bearing supply house.About $10 each.Might as well change both.
It sounds like the bearing cage came apart.

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby thrasherg » Mon May 07, 2012 1:44 pm

My initial reaction was the same thing, how can a bearing that is 5mm larger fit in the wheel? I think it must be a typo and is 0.5mm, but that is only a guess. Can you not do a search on the WEB for the recall and see if it has more info? This is what I found:-

SERVICE BULLETIN NUMBER: GL1200 #14
Bulletin Sequence Number: 014
Date of Bulletin:May 1986
NHTSA Item Number: 85341
Make: HONDA MOTORCYCLE
Model: GL1200
Year: 1985
Component: SUSPENSION:MOTORCYCLE REAR
Summary:
REAR WHEEL KIT-CLICKING NOISE FROM REAR WHEEL MAY INDICATE A LOOSE INNER
REAR WHEEL BEARING-CORRECTED BY INSTALLING REAR WHEEL KIT-REAR WHEEL KIT
H/C: 2411106,P/N: 42660-MG9-305-ALL 1984-1985 HONDA GL1200 MOTORCYCLE
MODELS

I would think a copy of the actual bulletin might even be located on this site.. :)

Regards Gary

harkgold
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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby harkgold » Mon May 07, 2012 4:01 pm

[quote="thrasherg"



I know guys......I thought the same thing when I first read this. It didn't make any sense to me either, but that's exactly how its worded in the manual.
Probably again.....another typo.

I had a thought while mowing grass this afternoon. The present bearing has been in the wheel since 1984 and logged around 56,000 miles. I figure if I simply replace it with another bearing just like the one that is presently there, I would get at least another 50,000 miles on the replacement. So I don't think I will fuss about it too much.

Thanks for the leads and tips!

Harkgold.

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby harkgold » Tue May 08, 2012 3:47 pm

thrasherg wrote:My initial reaction was the same thing, how can a bearing that is 5mm larger fit in the wheel? I think it must be a typo and is 0.5mm, but that is only a guess. Can you not do a search on the WEB for the recall and see if it has more info? This is what I found:-

SERVICE BULLETIN NUMBER: GL1200 #14
Bulletin Sequence Number: 014
Date of Bulletin:May 1986
NHTSA Item Number: 85341
Make: HONDA MOTORCYCLE
Model: GL1200
Year: 1985
Component: SUSPENSION:MOTORCYCLE REAR
Summary:
REAR WHEEL KIT-CLICKING NOISE FROM REAR WHEEL MAY INDICATE A LOOSE INNER
REAR WHEEL BEARING-CORRECTED BY INSTALLING REAR WHEEL KIT-REAR WHEEL KIT
H/C: 2411106,P/N: 42660-MG9-305-ALL 1984-1985 HONDA GL1200 MOTORCYCLE
MODELS

I would think a copy of the actual bulletin might even be located on this site.. :)

Regards Gary


Gary,
Where did you go to find the above report? I'm having trouble finding anything.
A further update:
This morning, after I removed the drive flange from the wheel and really cleaned all the dirt, grease and grime from the the bearing area on the hub, under better light and using my better glasses I can now actually see that the bearing is loose in the hub. As I said earlier, the opposite bearing is nice and tight turns as smooth as glass, but my gosh, this flange side bearing I can almost pull out with my fingers it's so sloppy.
There is a bearing supply house here in town that I might take the wheel to after I pull out the old bearing. They can measure the outside diam of the old bearing and the inside diam of the bearing race in order to check the difference and see if they have a bearing that will be slightly larger than the original for a tighter fit.

Harkgold

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby virgilmobile » Tue May 08, 2012 4:18 pm

Now we see the light.I can believe a 0.5mm larger OD bearing(special order obviously) would press into the wheel nice and tight.

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby thrasherg » Tue May 08, 2012 4:33 pm

Hi Harkgold,

I just ran a google search on "Honda service bulletin 14" and it listed many sites including this one. I was hoping that wingadmin might point you to the copy of the service bulletins on this site as I remember he did have them, but i had a quick look and didn't see it..
If the bearing is loose, I would be worried that it might have worn an oval hole in your wheel so putting in a larger bearing might not cure the problem. I will see if I can find some more info, but it sounds like you need a larger bearing or a shim material to put around the original bearing to make it an interference fit in your wheel.

Gary

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby WingAdmin » Tue May 08, 2012 7:02 pm

thrasherg wrote:Hi Harkgold,

I just ran a google search on "Honda service bulletin 14" and it listed many sites including this one. I was hoping that wingadmin might point you to the copy of the service bulletins on this site as I remember he did have them, but i had a quick look and didn't see it..
If the bearing is loose, I would be worried that it might have worn an oval hole in your wheel so putting in a larger bearing might not cure the problem. I will see if I can find some more info, but it sounds like you need a larger bearing or a shim material to put around the original bearing to make it an interference fit in your wheel.


That's just what I was thinking - have them measure the hub to make sure it's still circular before you try putting a new bearing in there, or you may end up with the same problem a couple months down the road. At the very worse, they could machine the hub opening to fit a bearing that they could press into there.

I haven't got the GL1200 service bulletins. I've seen a few small collections of them on the web, but I've never seen a complete set anywhere. The only places online that have complete sets, charge you for access.

harkgold
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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby harkgold » Tue May 08, 2012 8:30 pm

WingAdmin wrote:
thrasherg wrote:Hi Harkgold,

I just ran a google search on "Honda service bulletin 14" and it listed many sites including this one. I was hoping that wingadmin might point you to the copy of the service bulletins on this site as I remember he did have them, but i had a quick look and didn't see it..
If the bearing is loose, I would be worried that it might have worn an oval hole in your wheel so putting in a larger bearing might not cure the problem. I will see if I can find some more info, but it sounds like you need a larger bearing or a shim material to put around the original bearing to make it an interference fit in your wheel.


That's just what I was thinking - have them measure the hub to make sure it's still circular before you try putting a new bearing in there, or you may end up with the same problem a couple months down the road. At the very worse, they could machine the hub opening to fit a bearing that they could press into there.

I haven't got the GL1200 service bulletins. I've seen a few small collections of them on the web, but I've never seen a complete set anywhere. The only places online that have complete sets, charge you for access.


What is really strange to me is that the Honda home office itself cannot....or will not.....help with old service bulletin information. I contacted them a few years back regarding a service bulletin for another Honda product and basically got the run around with excuses like...."Oh, there so old, we don't even keep those on file anymore".....which I find very hard to believe.

Harkgold

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby harkgold » Tue May 08, 2012 9:02 pm

virgilmobile wrote:Now we see the light.I can believe a 0.5mm larger OD bearing(special order obviously) would press into the wheel nice and tight.


Any idea where a guy would special order a bearing that is 0.5mm larger?
Harkgold

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby WingAdmin » Wed May 09, 2012 10:20 am

harkgold wrote:Any idea where a guy would special order a bearing that is 0.5mm larger?
Harkgold


If you know the inner and outer dimensions, there are lots of places like http://www.locateballbearings.com that can help.

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby harkgold » Wed May 09, 2012 11:35 am

WingAdmin wrote:
harkgold wrote:Any idea where a guy would special order a bearing that is 0.5mm larger?
Harkgold


If you know the inner and outer dimensions, there are lots of places like http://www.locateballbearings.com that can help.


Thanks a bunch for the link!
Wow! I had no idea anyone would have so many ball bearings in any one place. I will keep my fingers crossed that they may have something that will work.
Harkgold

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby SlowTyper » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:53 pm

I have had to deal with rear wheel issues twice in the last month -- once on my Wing and once on a neighbor's Wing. Here's my experience...

I often heard a thunk 1-2 seconds after taking off from a stop. I also heard a clicking noise coming from the rear wheel that was audible at low speeds.

I am convinced my 'thunk' was due to dry spines on the driveshaft where it mates with the U-joint. For those wondering, there are three sets of spines involved with the driveshaft. One set on the end that mates with the rear drive (and gets lubrication from the rear drive thru two holes), another on the opposite end that mates with the U-joint, and a third that mates the U-Joint with the transmission output. The middle set (the ones mating the driveshaft to the U-joint) contains a spring that keeps the other two splines fully messed. Apparently, when the grease in this set reaches the end of its useful life, the spring compresses (when the rear suspension moves), but does not immediately expand (when the suspension goes back). Later, the friction is overcome and the spring snaps the driveshaft back into position, creating a single "clunk" sound. My solution was to lubricate these splines (and others too while I had it apart) with Loctite DuPont Krytox Hi-Perf Lube Grease. (The 'official' lubricant for this is Moly 60 Paste.) I would caution others to verify during reassembly that the U-joint splines have meshed when reinserting the driveshaft. In my case, the U-Joint had slid off the transmission output when I removed the driveshaft, tipped down, and then slid back up under the output shaft rather than onto it. To check this, you can manually try to rotate the rear drive with the transmission both in and out of gear. To fix it, I slid back the rubber boot over the U-joint and reposition the U-joint by hand (or you can use a long screwdriver to hold it while you slide the driveshaft back in place).

My rear wheel 'clicking' noise was a more serious problem. Apparently, a spec of hard grit had worked its way into the inner rear wheel bearing (the Honda bearings are only sealed on one side) and caused the rear bearing to jam every once in awhile. That in turn caused the bearing to rotate in the hub. After awhile, the bearing apparently became loose enough to move when the tire rotated under load. At least that is my theory as to what generated the clicking noise. (No problem was ever observed when rotating the rear tire while the bike was on the center stand.) I pondered long and hard deciding how to fix this! I could not find a new rear wheel on eBay at a price anywhere near my budget. I also could not find a bearing that had a slightly larger diameter. And I was uncomfortable having the hole in the rear hub milled out and then shimming the new bearing. My solution was to buy some Loctite 620, and 'glue' the new bearing in place. (This stuff is specifically designed for this purpose, and has a very high strength rating.) But let me pass along some advice to anyone else tempted to try this. Even though you can slip the bearing in and out by hand before applying the loctite, installing the bearing once the Loctite is applied requires a horrendous amount of pursuation! Have a press ready and use it quickly after applying the Loctite!!! By that, I mean do not apply the Loctite until you are ready to press the bearing in, and do not waste any time while actually pressing the bearing. Your goal should be to fully seat the bearing within a second or two of it making contact with the hub.

The problem with my neighbor's Wing came as quite the surprise. He had worn out his rear tire and removed the rear wheel to replace it. Incredibly, the splines between the final drive and the real wheel where almost completely worn away. Interestingly, the shavings were not specs of metal but rather long strands. It looked a little like the splines had steel wool growing out of them! What is interesting is that the splines showed no signs of wear when the rear tire was installed a few thousand miles earlier. I would be interested to know what others believe caused this exceptional wear. Was the grease used on the splines when the tire was installed not adequate for that purpose, or was the rear tire improperly mounted such that it could move side to side, or had the rear bearings worn to the point they allowed side-to-side play, or something else?

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby WingAdmin » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:03 pm

SlowTyper wrote:The problem with my neighbor's Wing came as quite the surprise. He had worn out his rear tire and removed the rear wheel to replace it. Incredibly, the splines between the final drive and the real wheel where almost completely worn away. Interestingly, the shavings were not specs of metal but rather long strands. It looked a little like the splines had steel wool growing out of them! What is interesting is that the splines showed no signs of wear when the rear tire was installed a few thousand miles earlier. I would be interested to know what others believe caused this exceptional wear. Was the grease used on the splines when the tire was installed not adequate for that purpose, or was the rear tire improperly mounted such that it could move side to side, or had the rear bearings worn to the point they allowed side-to-side play, or something else?


More than likely this is due to using non-Moly grease (which is why you should be using Moly grease on your driveshaft/U-joing splines as well). Why?

Moly is actually a dry lubricant that is in a grease base only for application purposes. The Honda Moly 60 is 60% moly to 40% grease.

In high pressure situations such as the drive gear splines, the grease is supposed to get squeezed out, and a dry layer of moly remains behind to continue lubricating. This is why you don't want to just use any old grease to lube your splines. The grease would get forced out and there wouldn't be any lubrication at all. The result is horribly worn splines, like your neighbor now has.

Moly is expensive stuff, so most moly greases (the cheap ones) are in the range of only 4-10%. If you use a low percentage moly, when the grease gets squeezed out you have insufficient remaining moly protection.

Using regular non-moly or low-moly grease is a good way to wear your splines out.

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby harkgold » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:17 pm

I don't know about the spines but I replaced my loose and clicking rear wheel bearings by simply buying the standard size rear bearing for the bike and using the same Loctite product.
Without the Loctite product the new bearing fit the hole perfectly when dry. With only slight pressures I could push the bearing into place with my fingers and remove it with my fingers as well. And the bearing had zero sideways slop. I then applied the loctite placed the bearing in the opening and then using a heavy block of wood and a rubber headed dead-blow mallet I quickly drove the bearing home. The result...no more clicking noise from the rear of the bike.
This Loctite product is fantastic and will require dynamite to get the bearing out.

Harkgold

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby WingAdmin » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:34 pm

harkgold wrote:I don't know about the spines but I replaced my loose and clicking rear wheel bearings by simply buying the standard size rear bearing for the bike and using the same Loctite product.
Without the Loctite product the new bearing fit the hole perfectly when dry. With only slight pressures I could push the bearing into place with my fingers and remove it with my fingers as well. And the bearing had zero sideways slop. I then applied the loctite placed the bearing in the opening and then using a heavy block of wood and a rubber headed dead-blow mallet I quickly drove the bearing home. The result...no more clicking noise from the rear of the bike.
This Loctite product is fantastic and will require dynamite to get the bearing out.

Harkgold


Better hope that bearing never fails, then! :)

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby SlowTyper » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:43 pm

Yep, I'm hoping the DuPont Krytox and Loctite 620 work another 25 years...

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby harkgold » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:03 pm

WingAdmin wrote:
harkgold wrote:I don't know about the spines but I replaced my loose and clicking rear wheel bearings by simply buying the standard size rear bearing for the bike and using the same Loctite product.
Without the Loctite product the new bearing fit the hole perfectly when dry. With only slight pressures I could push the bearing into place with my fingers and remove it with my fingers as well. And the bearing had zero sideways slop. I then applied the loctite placed the bearing in the opening and then using a heavy block of wood and a rubber headed dead-blow mallet I quickly drove the bearing home. The result...no more clicking noise from the rear of the bike.
This Loctite product is fantastic and will require dynamite to get the bearing out.

Harkgold


Better hope that bearing never fails, then! :)



Actually....dynamite is a bit of an exaggeration. According to the instructions on the Loctite product the bearing can be removed by applying something like four or five hundred degrees of heat.
Harkgold

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby Whisky » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:05 am

I just replaced mine with new bearing from all ball racing. I ran into the same problem. I had two different bearing and both did the same thing. The original one did the same thing also, after I had cleaned up the inside groove. I think I might have solved it by putting lock tight around the bearing itself and leaving it in there to harden. the wheel turns fine. Also. I had to replace the splines that were almost gone.

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Re: Rear Wheel Bearing Question

Postby SlowTyper » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:51 am

Knock on wood... But it has been a year and a half now and thousands of miles since I 'glued' my replacement rear bearing in with the Loctite 620. And so far, it has been working fine.




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