Caliper rebuild issues


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gof
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Caliper rebuild issues

Postby gof » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:39 am



I am rebuilding the caliper and installed new seals.

Issue 1: The width of the new seals seems thinner on the larger seal. Could the old seals have been swollen? On the large piston seal it seems like it has extra space around it now within the piston wall.

Issue 2: Even though I lubed the seals and pistons with fluid, the pistons don't seem to want to go back in. The go in about 1/4" and then just stick and bind. Are they supposed to slide in easily? Should I lubed the caliper walls inside? Again, this does not seem smooth, but I am not an expert.

Yes the pistons are clean and the seal area is clean.



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SilverDave
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Re: Caliper rebuild issues

Postby SilverDave » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:10 pm

Well they don't go in " easily " ... for me it required " Two Thumbs" on te piston and fairly hard pushing....
but...
If the seals are in their channels, cleaned out, and lubed... they will go in " smoothly " .

If they are stopping after 1/4 inch ... I think the seals are not all the way in their channels.

I pushed my seals down into their grove with a round wooden stick, going around and around several times to ensure they were seated fully.



Sizing :

and if you can see this "extra space " something is wrong...

Double check that Mother Honda gave you the right sealing rings

Or if you bought them aftermarket... go back to Honda and get the OEM ones .

Note : If you nick the new seals, even a little , while forcing them into their channels ... the pistons will not slide in .....

Don't ask me how I know this ...
LOL

SilverDave

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Re: Caliper rebuild issues

Postby gof » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:36 pm

They seemed seated. I ended up pushing one in fairly hard and tapping the other in with a steel rod and rubber mallet.

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Re: Caliper rebuild issues

Postby Phunnybone » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:44 am

You should be able to push them in with your thumbs. Every once in a while the seal will turn just enough to make it hard to push into the caliper.

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Re: Caliper rebuild issues

Postby gof » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:35 am

Phunnybone wrote:You should be able to push them in with your thumbs. Every once in a while the seal will turn just enough to make it hard to push into the caliper.


Well, I hope for more opinions on this. Are you saying I should be able to slip them in and out with my fingers? I don't see how that would ever provide a proper seal for the fluid. I have the worst feeling it will still lock up or not bleed properly. At that point I will eother need to find someone local who is good with this thing, or submit to a long expensive shop visit, or try and sell a bike with no brakes.

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Re: Caliper rebuild issues

Postby WingAdmin » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:17 pm

gof wrote:Well, I hope for more opinions on this. Are you saying I should be able to slip them in and out with my fingers? I don't see how that would ever provide a proper seal for the fluid. I have the worst feeling it will still lock up or not bleed properly. At that point I will eother need to find someone local who is good with this thing, or submit to a long expensive shop visit, or try and sell a bike with no brakes.


That is correct. The pistons, once lubricated with brake fluid, should be easily pushed in with your fingers, and can be pulled back out the same way. If not, the seals are either in wrong, damaged, or not fully seated in their channels. There can often be too much crud left in the channels, and a very small amount of this stuff will cause the pistons to bind.

Once the fluid gets in there, the more pressure there is, the tighter the seals get.

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Re: Caliper rebuild issues

Postby gof » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:25 pm

Sounds like I need to take it apart again and see if there is any aluminum oxidation under the seal channels. One was tighter than the other. Strangely enough the tighter one this time was not the piston that was sticking when it came off the bike. Any siggestions on cleaning those channels as far as tools or cleaners?

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Re: Caliper rebuild issues

Postby Phunnybone » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:23 pm

I used the little dental picks you can get at harbor freight to clean out the channels.

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Re: Caliper rebuild issues

Postby gof » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:06 pm

WingAdmin wrote:
gof wrote:Well, I hope for more opinions on this. Are you saying I should be able to slip them in and out with my fingers? I don't see how that would ever provide a proper seal for the fluid. I have the worst feeling it will still lock up or not bleed properly. At that point I will eother need to find someone local who is good with this thing, or submit to a long expensive shop visit, or try and sell a bike with no brakes.


That is correct. The pistons, once lubricated with brake fluid, should be easily pushed in with your fingers, and can be pulled back out the same way. If not, the seals are either in wrong, damaged, or not fully seated in their channels. There can often be too much crud left in the channels, and a very small amount of this stuff will cause the pistons to bind.

Once the fluid gets in there, the more pressure there is, the tighter the seals get.


Ok... I got dental pics from Harbor Freight and spent 1 hour cleaning the channels. I did have some white aluminum oxidation in there, but not a massive amount. But...even after cleaning out the channels, they still are fairly hard to push in, especially with both seals on and once all the way in I need a little shot of compressed air to pop them out. With no seals in, they move in and out with finger pressure, but with seals in, tougher to get in and probably impossible to pull out with finger pressure alone. This is an incredibly painful process since I don't know if it will work once done.

So I am hoping you guys are being a bit optimistic saying finger pressure can pull them back out once the seals are on?

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Re: Caliper rebuild issues

Postby WingAdmin » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:29 pm

Nope. I have literally pulled the pistons out with my fingers. You should be able to easily push them in, and easily pull them back out (assuming, of course, the bleeder valve is open, and you aren't pushing/pulling against air pressure!).

I had a look in the service manual to see if there was a limit specified for the inner channel of the seal for the caliper cylinder, but there isn't one - only for the cylinder wall itself.

Where did you get the seals? Are they OEM?

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Re: Caliper rebuild issues

Postby gof » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:39 pm

WingAdmin wrote:Nope. I have literally pulled the pistons out with my fingers. You should be able to easily push them in, and easily pull them back out (assuming, of course, the bleeder valve is open, and you aren't pushing/pulling against air pressure!).

I had a look in the service manual to see if there was a limit specified for the inner channel of the seal for the caliper cylinder, but there isn't one - only for the cylinder wall itself.

Where did you get the seals? Are they OEM?
Not oem. Got them from a site listed here. Now i hope the master cylinder kit works, since I got that frpom there too. How much will homda charge me for oem ?

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Re: Caliper rebuild issues

Postby WingAdmin » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:19 pm

OEM aren't expensive...you didn't specify if you were doing front or rear, but:

Front: http://partsfinder.onlinemicrofiche.com ... A=839&B=45

Rear: http://partsfinder.onlinemicrofiche.com ... A=839&B=48

Each caliper requires:
2 x dust seals @ $3.33 each
2 x piston seals @ 4.13 each

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Re: Caliper rebuild issues

Postby gof » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:01 am

WingAdmin wrote:OEM aren't expensive...you didn't specify if you were doing front or rear, but:


Ok, so Cyclemax is genuine OEM parts? I can also just try my local Honda dealer right? I am currently working on the rear, but my fronts have now stuck after trying to bleed the rear.

As far as my master cylinder, I had to really force the plunger in. I am now wondering if the non OEM seal for that is also not good.

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Re: Caliper rebuild issues

Postby gof » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:52 am

WingAdmin wrote:Where did you get the seals? Are they OEM?


Confirming, I got the rebuild kit from partsnmore as advised on this forum. Are these not OEM parts and not recommended?

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Re: Caliper rebuild issues

Postby WingAdmin » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:32 am

gof wrote:
WingAdmin wrote:OEM aren't expensive...you didn't specify if you were doing front or rear, but:


Ok, so Cyclemax is genuine OEM parts? I can also just try my local Honda dealer right? I am currently working on the rear, but my fronts have now stuck after trying to bleed the rear.

As far as my master cylinder, I had to really force the plunger in. I am now wondering if the non OEM seal for that is also not good.


Cyclemax offers OEM parts (on the links I showed you), and for some bikes (1500/1800 mostly) they also offer some non-OEM parts.

The Partsnmore seals are not OEM, but I never had ANY problems with them, and I rebuilt all of the master cylinders and calipers on my 1100 using them. The only problem with Partsnmore is I have heard that a few people found that the seals were the wrong size for their application - but that wasn't my experience.

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Re: Caliper rebuild issues

Postby gof » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:27 pm

WingAdmin wrote:
gof wrote:
WingAdmin wrote:OEM aren't expensive...you didn't specify if you were doing front or rear, but:

nce.


Ok got the OEM seals directly from my local Honda Dealer...same situation. Here is where I am at. The pistons require quite a bit of even force to start to go in, then they suddenly slip in, all the way in. It probably has something to do with needing perfectly even pressure from side to side and top to bottom. As far as ever pulling them out by hand from that position, that's never going to be possible.

The dust seal is slightly smaller than the piston itself and the large seal fits over the piston with no issue. I will try and get it all back together and try and bleed. I guess I have to figure out how to unfreeze the front brake first. So I bleed the front right first - basically just use a Mityvac to try and draw all air out right, no pedal pumping?

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Re: Caliper rebuild issues

Postby WingAdmin » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:24 pm

gof wrote:Ok got the OEM seals directly from my local Honda Dealer...same situation. Here is where I am at. The pistons require quite a bit of even force to start to go in, then they suddenly slip in, all the way in. It probably has something to do with needing perfectly even pressure from side to side and top to bottom. As far as ever pulling them out by hand from that position, that's never going to be possible.

The dust seal is slightly smaller than the piston itself and the large seal fits over the piston with no issue. I will try and get it all back together and try and bleed. I guess I have to figure out how to unfreeze the front brake first. So I bleed the front right first - basically just use a Mityvac to try and draw all air out right, no pedal pumping?


That's exactly right. I just rebuilt my rear and left front calipers this weekend. You'll give it some pressure, and then they will suddenly pop in. You can do it with your fingers - if you need a tool, something's not right.

The rear pistons I could have pulled back out. Definitely not the fronts though.

I use my Mityvac to draw fluid through, then let it sit for a few minutes to let air bubbles settle, then draw some more. Then I'll pump a few times, then put pressure on the pedal/lever, let it sit like that a few more minutes, and suck a bit more fluid out, while the pedal/lever is still pressed. Lastly, I'll tie the brake lever to the bar or put a weight on the brake pedal to compress it, and let it sit like that overnight.

The Wing brakes can be among the more tricky and annoying brake systems to bleed that I've done.




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