1986 GL1200 has no electrical power


Information and questions on GL1200 Goldwings (1984-1987)
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BamBam424
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1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby BamBam424 » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:44 am



I had a fried Starter solenoid in 2014, I replaced it with a FORD 260 starter solenoid from a forum talk as I was in no mans land and it worked 2 years ago, so now I bought a newer gl1200 one with a built in blade fuse. Slid in the 4 prong wire harness (I doubt I could have reversed it as it slides in one way), connected the battery positive and other end to the starter. I turned the key and a puff of wire smoke came up from somewhere around the top of the center of the engine and below the gas tank, but I cannot see what it was, but now I am without any power. Turn the key and everything is dead? I tried the key on and to jump the top of the solenoid to hear it click but I do not think as strong as it should, the starter barely clicked but will not turn over and still zero electricity to anything. Fuse tested fine on the solenoid. Battery is 12.2 vt and on a trickle charger all the time. It had been sitting with a trickle charger before I decided to replaced the FORD solenoid because I had had a temp power problem and I felt the make shift FORD wiring needed to go back to original and felt I had a lose wire. Now I think it was not the FORD solenoid at all?


Last edited by BamBam424 on Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1996 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby BamBam424 » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:44 am

Sorry 1986 GL 1200 I

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby WingAdmin » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:54 am

I would check the battery cables to start with. And the terminals on the battery. Check them for continuity, try wiggling them around. They can corrode and fail inside their plastic sheathing, and this might be your issue.

What voltage do you measure between the battery negative terminal and the starter terminal?

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BamBam424
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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby BamBam424 » Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:41 pm

12.97 volts from negative to solenoid

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby WingAdmin » Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:29 am

BamBam424 wrote:12.97 volts from negative to solenoid


OK, now do the same thing while pressing the starter button and see what the voltage is.

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby BamBam424 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:59 am

OK, now do the same thing while pressing the starter button and see what the voltage is.

10.5v. ? I work 8-5 PT so appreciate your knowledge in replying

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby BamBam424 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:01 am

One concern is the puff of smoke I cannot trace yet below the gas tank as I did not pull the seat, but will

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby Rednaxs60 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:08 am

Just a thought, if you turn on the key and have no power - would try horn, lights, etc - would check the dog bone in-line fuse from the starter solenoid to the ignition switch. Even if it looks in good shape it can be defective, learned this from WingAdmin. I mention this because if there is no power to the system when the key is turned on, nothing should happen when the starter button is pressed. I would also take off the false tank before applying power back to the system so that you can see what is happening to the wiring system.

The new replacement starter relays are inexpensive especially in the US and come with the new blade style fuse already incorporated (with a spare as well). Checked EBay, approximately $10.00 US. Here's picture:



Just a few thoughts.

Cheers

Ernest
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby BamBam424 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:13 am

In my original post, I really tried to be as specific as possible. That is the starter relay I have and the blade fuse tests perfect, but no horn, lights or anything?

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby Rednaxs60 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:26 am

BamBam424 wrote:In my original post, I really tried to be as specific as possible. That is the starter relay I have and the blade fuse tests perfect, but no horn, lights or anything?


Did you check the in-line fuse in the red wire from the starter solenoid to the ignition switch. I just did some wiring changes on my '85 LTD and changed out the dog bone fuse on this wire to the newer blade style. If this fuse is blown, there will be no power to the system.
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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby BamBam424 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:17 pm

That's the one I am probably looking for? Where would you look from the battery to the ignition? Maybe this is what smoked? Under the seat or just after the solenoid post? Thanks Bruce

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby WingAdmin » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:26 pm

OK, somethings not right here. You have no power to the bike, and the terminal on the solenoid/relay indicates full battery voltage, as you would expect. When you turn the ignition on and hit the starter however, it drops down to 10.5 volts. This indicates that the solenoid/relay is engaging and powering up the starter motor - which means that the ignition must be working, otherwise the solenoid/relay could not engage. Are you hearing it click when you press the starter?

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby BamBam424 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:23 pm

No click at all? No lights at all, but if I turn the key on and cross the solenoid posts, I hear a click from the starter trying to engage, but does not turn the engine over at all, just clicks. I am pretty sure the click is not the solenoid as I would feel it with the screwdriver move as it clicks. Sorry that is not 100% accurate as I will do it again tonight. I figured crossing the posts would turn the engine over? If the solenoid inside is fried, but the fuse is ok?? would I still have no electrical power to everything else? It absolutely sparks when crossing posts.
I am pretty good at these things being my own do it guy, but this stumps me? Would I not need ignition switch power back to the starter to allow to turn over or can crossing the solenoid override the ignition switch to at least turn the motor over, but not allow the engine to start? Puzzle will be solved:)

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby Rednaxs60 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:54 pm

I have been thinking about your issue and have two thoughts regarding this.

First is about the wiring. I have reviewed the electrical schematic for an '86 Aspencade, but do think yours should be similar. The power goes to the ignition switch from the starter solenoid via the red wire with an in-line 30A dog bone or other fuse. Power from the ignition switch goes to the fuse block via a black wire. From here power is sent to the various electric circuits, but the one of interest here is from fuse position #5 - black/light green -that goes to the starter/engine stop switch (and elsewhere) and from there, back to the starter solenoid via a yellow/red striped wire to energize the starter solenoid relay allowing power to flow to the starter.

You mentioned that you had a voltage drop with the ignition switch on, and the starter button pushed. Was this measured at the battery, or the starter - it will make a difference in where your troubleshooting may take you. If it was at the battery, the voltage drop may not be due to the starter. if it was at the starter, looking for different issues.

You also crossed the terminals of the starter solenoid. This bypasses the internal coil in the starter solenoid that closes when energized and allows power to flow to starter. If when you did this, with the ignition switch on, and everything being good, and the starter spins up, the bike should start.

My second thought is with the new starter solenoid. I replaced mine because of the dog bone fuse and it looked like it was burnt a bit. When I received it, I tried to connect it to the system but the locking tab on the bike connector was not letting the connector seat properly. I thought I might have it turned around and yes, I could make it fit, but this would be different than when the original starter solenoid was being used. I cut and filed the locking tab off, and the connector did seat properly. I was not completely satisfied with the fitment so I removed the wires from the connector and installed them individually, protecting each with shrink tube. I did this after I documented the wire placement as per this picture:



Just a couple of more thoughts on your issue. Let me know. Cheers

Ernest
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby BamBam424 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:06 pm

My second thought is with the new starter solenoid. I replaced mine because of the dog bone fuse and it looked like it was burnt a bit. When I received it, I tried to connect it to the system but the locking tab on the bike connector was not letting the connector seat properly. I thought I might have it turned around and yes, I could make it fit, but this would be different than when the original starter solenoid was being used. I cut and filed the locking tab off, and the connector did seat properly. I was not completely satisfied with the fitment so I removed the wires from the connector and installed them individually, protecting each with shrink tube. I did this after I documented the wire placement as per this picture:

This is getting close I think as I too was not comfortable with the way it fit? But when I connected the power from the battery is when smoke started so I pulled it apart and pondered to try the other way, but did not fit due to the tab. So I looked all over on line to see the color of the wire vs how some showed it to fit right? Could not find it plugged together with wire colors very well. So plugged it back the way it probably should not be now and oh yes totally dead everywhere. Pretty sure now something got fried. Someone is labeling these solenoids wrong for the 1200's Do you have the wire color to do as you did? Then to ponder what I need to do to get power back? What fried?

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby deanbw » Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:11 am

had a friends bike who cooked the plug that goes to the solenoid, check those wires on that plug, if you find melted together wires cut it out and replace the bad wire, then open the false tank, remove glove tray and check all the fuses.

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby WingAdmin » Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:38 am

Yours would not be the first bike that cooked wiring due to a mislabeled or miswired aftermarket solenoid.

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby Rednaxs60 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:09 am

BamBam424 wrote:My second thought is with the new starter solenoid. I replaced mine because of the dog bone fuse and it looked like it was burnt a bit. When I received it, I tried to connect it to the system but the locking tab on the bike connector was not letting the connector seat properly. I thought I might have it turned around and yes, I could make it fit, but this would be different than when the original starter solenoid was being used. I cut and filed the locking tab off, and the connector did seat properly. I was not completely satisfied with the fitment so I removed the wires from the connector and installed them individually, protecting each with shrink tube. I did this after I documented the wire placement as per this picture:

This is getting close I think as I too was not comfortable with the way it fit? But when I connected the power from the battery is when smoke started so I pulled it apart and pondered to try the other way, but did not fit due to the tab. So I looked all over on line to see the color of the wire vs how some showed it to fit right? Could not find it plugged together with wire colors very well. So plugged it back the way it probably should not be now and oh yes totally dead everywhere. Pretty sure now something got fried. Someone is labeling these solenoids wrong for the 1200's Do you have the wire color to do as you did? Then to ponder what I need to do to get power back? What fried?


The picture I put in my post shows the wiring for the starter solenoid. The post that the battery connects to is the "B" post - this is also where the red wire to the ignition switch goes. Check this red wire as it is the one that has the main 30A in-line fuse. The "M" side/post is where the starter connects to.

When I received my starter solenoid, it also came with a new 4 position white connector to replace the old, but it did not have any new "lock" connectors that fit into it. Having a hard time sourcing these connectors up here.

Read a post where a fellow took what appeared to be perfectly good connectors to have them analyzed as to the conductive properties. The report indicated that even though the connectors look door, the electrical transfer capability was diminished some 50%, so time does take its toll regardless of condition. Mentioned to an auto mechanic friend that I wanted to use a connector plug for some wires on my '85 and he was quite adamant in the "no" category. He said to use a fuse block or terminal strip, or similar, but no to the connector plug (such as replacing the connector plugs between the rectifier and stator by hardwiring).

Going to look at the schematic and see what I can come up with to bypass the starter solenoid except for wiring needed to provide power to the starter.

Getting back to your issue, check the in-line fuse in the red wire going to the ignition - may be blown and hopefully saved the system. On my bike this wire is run on the right side of the battery as you look at it and goes to a white connector just under the seat. I was able to disconnect this wire and replace it with a new wire and in-line fuse.

Let me know. Cheers

Ernest
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Ernest

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby Rednaxs60 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:13 pm

Did some more research and found this other thread and the issue is similar. Virgilmobile and WingAdmin have some good information here.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24003

Checked the wiring schematics and since everything uses 12V there should be no issue with turning the starter solenoid connector around before turning on the key except that the "flow" is not correct. If you do not want to modify the connector (cutting/filing off the locking tab) take the wires out of the connector and hook into the starter solenoid connectors. Virgilmobile recommended to test the connectors so that you know which ones have 12V and which ones don't. Connect the starter relay to the battery on the "B" side of the starter solenoid. The two male connectors closest to the fuse should read 12V. The front two connectors should be 0V. Attach red and red/white stripe wire to the live terminals. The red wire goes to the ignition switch, the red/white striped wire comes from the regulator.

The yellow/red striped wire comes from the starter/engine stop switch to energize the coil internal to the starter solenoid, and to provide power to the Green/red striped wire. Connect these wires to the "dead" connectors, you can use my diagram that I put in my above post or connect as you see fit, your choice. From reading the post by Virginmobile may not be an issue which one goes where.

From reading the other thread, having the starter solenoid wiring incorrect does not seem to have serious adverse effects.

Check the in-line fuse in the red wire from the starter solenoid to the ignition switch, and all the fuses in the fuse block. Give a good visual to the wiring under the false tank, and as Virginmobile mentions, replace any wiring that looks questionable. I also think you have the various relays in the main fuse block similar to mine. Check these as well.

Let us know what you find. Cheers

Ernest
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby BamBam424 » Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:24 pm

So I tested the Solenoid on both ends and the blade fuse. Blade fuse is fine. 12.9 on battery, 10.5 on the solenoid with the key on and starter button pushed from the battery and 1 volt on the other post to the starter? If I cooked the solenoid, would there be no electrical power to the rest of the bike indicating the inside of the solenoid is cooked and should replace it?

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby Rednaxs60 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:27 am

BamBam424 wrote:So I tested the Solenoid on both ends and the blade fuse. Blade fuse is fine. 12.9 on battery, 10.5 on the solenoid with the key on and starter button pushed from the battery and 1 volt on the other post to the starter? If I cooked the solenoid, would there be no electrical power to the rest of the bike indicating the inside of the solenoid is cooked and should replace it?


Checked the schematic. If you have fried the starter solenoid, a couple of issues could occur, but first you need to check the power to the ignition switch. There should be a red wire going from the starter solenoid that is connected at the same post as the wire from the battery to the starter solenoid. This wire has a 30A in-line fuse in it. Make sure there is power going through it. Cooking the solenoid does not affect the power to the ignition switch. The in-line fuse if blown will.

Have you checked all the fuses in the fuse block as well. If these are blown, especially fuse #5, there will be no 12V back to the starter relay to energize the internal starter solenoid relay allowing power to the starter when you press the starter button.

If you have fried the starter solenoid, then it is possible power will not get to the starter. It could also affect other items down the line such as the fuel pump relay and fuel pump, and other items.

Let us know. Cheers

Ernest
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby deanbw » Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:04 am

jump straight from pos. on battery to lug on starter, see if it turns over like it should, then turn on key and do it again, see if it starts. Had a friend who fought his bike for weeks, battery had 12.8 in it but only surface charge, would not turn engine, swapped battery and it runs like it should.

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby Rednaxs60 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:43 am

deanbw wrote:jump straight from pos. on battery to lug on starter, see if it turns over like it should, then turn on key and do it again, see if it starts. Had a friend who fought his bike for weeks, battery had 12.8 in it but only surface charge, would not turn engine, swapped battery and it runs like it should.


So you are going to try a new battery? Hope it works, still curious about the puff of smoke.

Cheers
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Ernest

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby BamBam424 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:49 am

Will try jumping, but still the bike has ZERO electricity with a 12.9 vt output. Dash gauges should light.
Earnest, I printed your advice and will trace it today. Sure appreciate your knowledge and love to solve Goldwing puzzles:) Bruce

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Re: 1986 GL1200 has no electrical power

Postby Rednaxs60 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:36 am

BamBam424 wrote:Will try jumping, but still the bike has ZERO electricity with a 12.9 vt output. Dash gauges should light.
Earnest, I printed your advice and will trace it today. Sure appreciate your knowledge and love to solve Goldwing puzzles:) Bruce


Bruce;

If it wasn't for this forum and a few others, I would not have done all the work I did on my '85, nor researched as much. Everyone on this forum are extremely helpful. Have to pay forward as well.

No dash lights, fuel pp priming, nothing, hmmmmm? Until you get power to the system, no need to get new battery at this time. Two sources of power to the bike. The red wire in the starter solenoid connector, and the red wire from the starter solenoid battery post to the system. You have power to the starter solenoid and the starter solenoid 30A fuse is good, there should be power through the red wire in the starter solenoid connector. Now to prove power is going through the red wire from the starter solenoid battery post to the bike system. Good luck.

Ernest


"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest


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