1985 LTD Stator and RR


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Rednaxs60
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1985 LTD Stator and RR

Postby Rednaxs60 » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:00 pm



Changed the RR yesterday to an SH847 from Roadster Cycle. This is a larger unit than the Shindengen SH574A-12. This Shindengen RR is the upgrade for the '86 SEI. Here is the SH847 and Shindengen, and the SH847 kit:

The area under the false tank where the Shindengen is installed is too small an area for the SH847. I was going to relocate the accessory fuse block that I installed earlier to inside the rear luggage compartment as I went, but the need for space for the new SH847 has accelerated this small project. Here is where the accessory fuse block is located:

The accessory fuse block is under the passenger backrest on the rear luggage compartment. I have now moved it to inside the rear luggage compartment out of the elements:

I had to drill and install a rubber grommet for the wires to pass through. I will be installing a connector just in case I have to remove the rear luggage compartment at some future date - another small project to keep me going. Here ar pictures of the grommet install:
The hole required for this size grommet was a 5/8".

The grommet fit quite well.

Now for post two to continue.
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"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

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Rednaxs60
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Re: 1985 LTD Stator and RR

Postby Rednaxs60 » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:22 pm

The install for the new SH847 went well. I installed it in the same place as where I had the accessory fuse block. Here is the install picture:

Moving it here since it could not fit where the old RR was has cleaned up the area under the false tank:

The red-white wires (three of them) are still "live" when disconnected and with the key in the "off" position. This/these wires are "live" from the RR to the starter solenoid because this/these wires are attached to the red wire that goes from the starter solenoid to the ignition switch. You have to ensure that you either remove these entirely (not practical), or make sure these cannot touch anywhere to ground.

After having installed and connected the new SH847 series RR to the bike system, started the bike and checked to ensure it was charging as per normal, and it was. Very pleased with the install, and proceeded to put the bike back together again. Decided to do a road test last night after everything was back together; however, when I started out noticed that the system was not charging, and quickly returned to the garage. Since it was about an hour between initial start and road test, I was a bit anxious about what was happening.

I took the seat off to get at the wiring. Checked the stator and had no continuity between phases, no continuity to ground and no stator output. Checked the pos/neg leads to the new RR and all was well. Decided to do a quick post last night to get some info on way ahead. I was anxious because it was a scenario of now it's here - now it's gone, and that quick. Have read a lot of threads on this issue and because of the Poorboy alt conversions, but had not read where a stator had failed this quick. Put up the tools for the night and called it a day.

Checked the stator this morning, and have continuity between stator phases, no continuity to ground, but less than 1 VAC between phases. Checked the SH847 RR pos/neg wiring and it is good. I contacted Roaster Cycle by email as well, and Jack gave some good troubleshooting info, but still no joy. The SH847 RR cannot be checked with a digital voltmeter.

I am going to do some more investigating. My father told me once that when you do a job and it is not working as it should, go back to the beginning. I'm going to rig the original RR with the capacitor to the wiring to do a check on the system - can't hurt. Should this not make a change, it will be decision time.

Another day in the life of riding a 32 year old classic. Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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Re: 1985 LTD Stator and RR

Postby WingAdmin » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:37 pm

My concern is that the regulator is mounted to the plastic trunk. In its original position, it is mounted firmly to the frame, and is able to use the frame as a fairly sizable heat sink. The ABS of the trunk will not conduct heat away like the frame will, and it's possible the regulator could become hot enough to melt the trunk. Have you tested it under various engine RPM and electrical load conditions to see what the maximum temperature of the unit is? ABS melts at 221 degrees F.

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Re: 1985 LTD Stator and RR

Postby Rednaxs60 » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:23 pm

Thanks WingAdmin - hadn't thought of the ABS issue - will be looking for more suitable location, real estate for an item this big is scarce. My issue right now is to determine the reason for lack of charging. The VAC between phases is the same, less than 1 VAC. This has me stumped. There is continuity between each phase, there is no continuity to ground, and each phase is less than 1 VAC.

Should the stator be "toast", what to go with - poorboy or new stator. Have priced stator here in Canada from Canada's Motorcycle - a unit from Rick's Motorsport at $240.00 plus taxes. Poorboy can probably be done for the same. Have new series RR as well to consider - don't need too many spare parts around.

More investigating to do this weekend. Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

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Re: 1985 LTD Stator and RR

Postby Rusty Bike » Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:17 pm

Rather then relocate RR, you could mount it to a piece of aluminum plate as big and thick as practical. Use heat conducting paste as used in electronics between plate and RR. Now the aluminum plate will act as a heat sink and protect the plastic while cooling the RR. Your work looks good...Rusty

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Re: 1985 LTD Stator and RR

Postby Rednaxs60 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:52 pm

[*]Did some more investigating of the stator charging issue. Checked the wiring right to where it comes out of the engine case. Found the wires to be 14 gauge installed on a charging system that can generate up to 50A current, not best practice. The wires were, baked, discoloured, brittle and the wire was exposed. Can't imagine what the internal looks like. Will have to fix this situation, one way or the other. Here is a picture of the stator wiring coming out of the engine case:
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

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Re: 1985 LTD Stator and RR

Postby Rednaxs60 » Sun May 01, 2016 9:16 am

"Quote From WingAdmin - Yes, it can produce 50 amps at 12 volts DC...but remember that what comes out of those wires is three-phase AC at 50+ volts. The amount of current is much lower, plus it is spread across three phases, so it doesn't require the same gauge wires that 50 amps at 12 volts would require.

Even 50 amps of three-phase power still requires only 14 gauge wire."

I can surmise that this is one of the reasons that Honda went to an external alternator. Probably others such as power requirements, engine design.

Talked to a friend who worked on Harley's for a long time and HD had the same issue as well. GWsare not alone with this issue.

Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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Re: 1985 LTD Stator and RR

Postby Asp » Sun May 01, 2016 1:10 pm

What most people forget is the way most cable is rated, which is in free air.

When you enclose them (or bunch cables together) they have to be de-rated, due to the fact the conductors cannot now dissipate their heat to free air. Inside the engine casing the cables are running in hot oil, which means you should de-rate them even more (although the oil will probably also act as a coolant when they reach a very high temperature).

Your pic looks like a textbook example of the problems that can occur when external influences are not taken into account. The cables seem to be adequately rated in free air, but taking into account the above they should really have been more highly rated due to bunching and insulating effects where they pass through the grommet.

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Re: 1985 LTD Stator and RR

Postby Rednaxs60 » Sun May 01, 2016 1:29 pm

Asp - believe you are correct. The stator wiring is apparently the same as on the other models with a 350 watt stator. The current through the stator wires with a 350 watt stator would be less. Like you mention, de-rating the wiring because of bunching, lack of cooling would should have resulted in a 12 even 10 gauge wire. I have also found that there are high temp connectors as well that would have been good to use. Tried soldering a high temp connector and it is not easy.

The damage is done, have to correct the issue. Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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Re: 1985 LTD Stator and RR

Postby flash1942 » Sun May 01, 2016 3:39 pm

Ok I'm confused. It was charging but now it isnt? You did a stator check before you did ANYTHING else,even before removing the orig RR? The new RR is a straight forward install; 3 yellows to the 3 wires to the new RR and the pos and neg to the battery(5 wires). No other wires need be considered. What could go wrong here? I have done 2 bikes with this set-up and encountered no problems. Could be a shorted connection or a impossible demand for power from the stator (burnt wires coming out of the engine case)
Also this series RR works in reverse of the shunt type. The shunt gets hotter as the less demand for power because excess power generated by the stator is bled off as heat but the series RR gets hotter as the demand for power increases because of it's job as a rectifier(AC to DC).
BTW, Jack at Roadster is a super guy and he stands by his products.

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Rednaxs60
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Re: 1985 LTD Stator and RR

Postby Rednaxs60 » Sun May 01, 2016 10:20 pm

flash1942 wrote:Ok I'm confused. It was charging but now it isnt? You did a stator check before you did ANYTHING else,even before removing the orig RR? The new RR is a straight forward install; 3 yellows to the 3 wires to the new RR and the pos and neg to the battery(5 wires). No other wires need be considered. What could go wrong here? I have done 2 bikes with this set-up and encountered no problems. Could be a shorted connection or a impossible demand for power from the stator (burnt wires coming out of the engine case)
Also this series RR works in reverse of the shunt type. The shunt gets hotter as the less demand for power because excess power generated by the stator is bled off as heat but the series RR gets hotter as the demand for power increases because of it's job as a rectifier(AC to DC).
BTW, Jack at Roadster is a super guy and he stands by his products.


I have been in contact with Jack about this issue, and I do not believe the change of the RR had anything to do with the issue at hand. There is something amiss and right now I do not know what it is. It has been recommended to remove the engine and go from there. I intend to do this and do a stator replacement. If I have issues down the road, the alt mod may become a good option.

More to follow.
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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Re: 1985 LTD Stator and RR

Postby Rednaxs60 » Sat May 07, 2016 10:28 pm

I had initially wanted to do the alt mod, but after searching for the parts in this city, I realize that it will take longer than I'm willing to allow the bike to sit. So after a lot of soul searching, I will be replacing the stator, ordered it yesterday. While the engine is out, hope to do some engine cleaning, and look at the starter clutch. Intend to renew the springs, pins and rollers in the starter clutch.

Had done some initial work to do the alt mod, but have now gone into remove engine mode. Had to remove rear wheel to get the exhaust off and out. Foot pegs, side stand, rear brake lever, engine guards, timing belt covers, drain oil, drain rad, and a few other items. Have started to take pictures staring with the bike disassembled with the rear wheel and exhaust out. Didn't do a commentary on getting this far because it has been said before so to speak. Will be taking pictures from here becasue it is unknown territory for me.

Time for a nice easy evening. More to follow.
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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Re: 1985 LTD Stator and RR

Postby Rednaxs60 » Sun May 08, 2016 1:18 pm

Yesterday was about 2 1/2 hours of work, no rushing. Today so far I've taken the FD and swing arm off. It lets me have more room and I won't have to worry about working around it when I R and R the engine. Spent another 1 1/2 hours this morning.

I have also drained the gas tank because the shut off VV leaks when turned off. Will be looking at it very soon. A fellow in Nova Scotia had the same issue and came up with a fix. Will be reviewing his notes and doing mine.

Taking pictures of everything I disconnect (before and after). Need a good reference. Also using zip lock bags for parts and small plastic bins to keep everything organized.

Going to do more reading this evening to make sure I get it all.

Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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Re: 1985 LTD Stator and RR

Postby Rusty Bike » Sun May 08, 2016 6:29 pm

That's a big project, good luck.

I guess I'll wait till I pull my rear wheel to pull the rear muffler assembly. Mine is in need of exhaust gaskets at the clamps. Thanks for the info...Rusty

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Re: 1985 LTD Stator and RR

Postby Rednaxs60 » Sun May 08, 2016 10:57 pm

Couple of more hours this afternoon.

Got the clutch slave off, cleaned, and new seals. Lots of crud inside. Had already changed the clutch fluid a few months back so I expected the fluid to be clear when I removed the top off the clutch master. Unfortunately, I found that the fluid colour was blackish. I'm thinking the line(s) are starting to break down and need to be replaced. Another project.

Took the fuel shut off valve apart. Looks like I need an o-ring for the selector. Noticed that I should just have to either use self-tapping screws, or drill right through the body and use nut and bolt to secure the workings. Should work.

Fuel pump has been disconnected from the fuel lines and tied back out of the way.

Doesn't sound like a lot, but it is adding up. The more I do to this bike, the more I realize how much more there is to consider. I'm also thinking that next time, and there will probably be a next time, I must factor in a lot more than I had for this bike when I started.

Now to take the rest of the evening off.

Cheers


"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest


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