SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.


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Rusty Bike
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SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rusty Bike » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:49 pm



Pull the back end down this afternoon. Glad I did. Differential is leaking. Driven hub pins are bone dry as in, they were cleaned and reassembled without grease! Also wheel bearing outer race is spinning in it's bore. CRAP!
1: Can I put new seals in the differential without special tools? I'm hoping the differential bearings are good. Bike has 44,000 miles.
2: Rear wheel bearing is still a pretty close fit in it's bore, It will move slightly not flopping around, will Loctite 680 secure a new bearing in this bore?
3: How do you determine whether there is excessive wear on the drive pins? Thanks All...Rusty



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Rednaxs60
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Motorcycle: 1985 GL1200 LTD, 2008 GL1800

Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rednaxs60 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:41 pm

Rusty Bike wrote:Pull the back end down this afternoon. Glad I did. Differential is leaking. Driven hub pins are bone dry as in, they were cleaned and reassembled without grease! Also wheel bearing outer race is spinning in it's bore. CRAP!
1: Can I put new seals in the differential without special tools? I'm hoping the differential bearings are good. Bike has 44,000 miles.
2: Rear wheel bearing is still a pretty close fit in it's bore, It will move slightly not flopping around, will Loctite 680 secure a new bearing in this bore?
3: How do you determine whether there is excessive wear on the drive pins? Thanks All...Rusty


1. Bearings are probably good, but check the pinion shaft bearing - I had to replace the one on mine. Seals can be replaced but as to which one is leaking is the question. If you have to do the outboard oil seal (item #31), you will have to take out bearing #28. If you have to replace pinion shaft oil seal, you will need to have a tool to remove the pinion shaft bearing retainer then do the oil seal (#32). If oil seal #33 is leaking you should be able to replace without too much additional work.
2. Honda recognized a problem with the rear wheel inner bearing and in '86 sleeved the hub and installed a smaller bearing. Not a complete fix, but stemmed the bearing/hub failure that was prevalent on the '84-'85 models. Get the best loctite product or equivalent that you can and it should help. Here is an article on the history of the rear hub/bearing failures:


3. The flange pins should last quite a long time. If you have play when you mate the wheel and flange unit, look at the cush dampers in the wheel and inspect where the pins fit. There is no replacement for the cush dampers, but have found a possible solution that I have yet to try and give feedback on. With the problem you are having with the inner bearing, you may want to get a new rim as well.

Hope this helps. Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

Rusty Bike
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Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rusty Bike » Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:43 pm

Thanks Red, I have read your thread on this delema. Mine is an 86 and does have the steel insert in the hub. At 44,000 miles I'm surprised it is loose. The bearing feels fine. I have new OEM parts coming. I bought all the seals/o-rings for the wheel and FD and wheel bearings. Looks like the leak is mainly at the pinion shaft but while I'm in there.......EVERYTHING is 30 yrs old! I saw that retainer in the fisch, I can probably fab up a tool to get that out. Looked around Ebay for wheels, nothing great right now. Took the wheel to the local speed shop. Their buried in work right now. We did mic the slop though, looks like .008. I'm not real worried about the drive pins, the dampers look good. I was surprised to see that most of the Ebay wheels had rust on the drive pin bushings. Maybe Honda did not lube these when new???
I have read the sad saga of the poor bearing placement. With all the over engineering that went into this bike, you would think Honda would have gotten the drive line right. :roll: I'll search for another machinist and/or a wheel. Thanks...Rusty

Rusty Bike
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Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rusty Bike » Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:00 pm

You got me thinking when you said the 86 used a smaller bearing. I looked it up, all the 1200's use the same bearing and axle, the wheel assembly is a different part #. Oh well.

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Rednaxs60
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Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rednaxs60 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:28 pm

Another thought is can the steel bearing insert be pulled and replaced? I would think the insert can be removed, but you may have to have a new one made. May be a better option than using a loctite or equivalent product.

In the box of goodies that I received in Ontario there are sleeve inserts, but have not got them out here yet. I'm thinking I may have to to sleeve my rim eventually.

Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

Rusty Bike
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Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rusty Bike » Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:27 pm

Well, I thought about that also. I don't know how deep into the aluminum casting that sleeve goes, the aluminum part you see around the steel sleeve is pretty thin. I can't imagine a 900 lb bike being held up by that bit of aluminum. The fellow who looked at it today proposed removing half of the steel and pressing in a sleeve to suit the bearing. Too bad he is backed up 6 weeks right now.

CrystalPistol
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Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby CrystalPistol » Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:52 pm

I suspect that anything done now to that wheel now that the aluminum has started to let go is temporary. Loads, bumps, the life it's lead has pushed it to it's limit.

Time to look at swapping in a complete GL1500 final drive (same ratio, drill 4 holes in swing arm out to 7/16") with 1500 wheel (wider double row main load carrying drive side bearing in thicker aluminum support), 1500 larger brake rotor, 1500 caliper bracket (modified slightly), 1500 spacers and 1500 axle shaft. Get better rear braking and big load carrying capacity bearing setup. It's also reported that the swap better centers the rear wheel in the swing arm.

SWAP NOTES:
To install a 1500 final drive into a 1200 "notes"

To install the 1500 final / wheel with bigger double row bearing / and larger brake ....

Drill out the swingarm holes to 7/16.
You must machine or grind the 1500 caliper mount down to .500-.510 at the axle hole area on the side nearest swing arm and away from wheel
Cut 1/4 inch off the left side lower shock bolt, and then it goes in.
Use the single spacer from the 1500 on left side.
1200 axle will work but short of threaded end once 1500 final is used, 1500 axle works great.
Route the brake hose to the outside of the left shock.

You can use the 160/80-16 rear tire if loads are limited as heavy loads might lead to rubbing, or you can use a 150/80-16 rear Avon Venom X which has a load rating of 908 pounds. (stock GL1500 tire has 853 lb rating, Avon Venom X 160/80-16 is over 1,000, and stock 1200 rear tire MV85-15 is rated 910 lbs).

Using 1500 final / wheel / brake is reputed to center the wheel better in the swing arm than the stock 1200 which has a slight offset. You can paint the spokes of the 1500 wheel semi gloss black.

To install just the 1500 final drive ....
The 1200 flange will fit the 1500 drive if you want to install your 1200 wheel on a 1500 drive, but then you keep the 1200 smaller rear brake disc and mount and two spacers on left side, etc. To do this, you just need to drill out the 4 holes in the swing arm.

Notes on tires, etc:

A 150/85-15 or MV85-15 is near 25.04" OA Diameter (a 1200 size)
A 150/90-15 is near 25.62" OA Diameter (also a 1200 size)
A 160/80-16 is near 26.07" OA Diameter (stock 1500 size)
A 150/80-16 is near 25.44" OA Diameter
**Note the Aspect Ratios.

Dunlop "Elite II 491" MV85B15, has a load rating of 910 lbs. maximum @ 41 psi
Avon "Venom X" 150/90 B15 TL has a load rating of 993 lbs @ 49 psi
Dunlop "Elite II 491" 160/80B16 for the 1500 has a load rating of only 853 lbs. @ 41 psi
Avon "Venom X" 160/80 B16 TL with a load rating of 1019 lbs. @ 49 psi
Avon 150/80 B16 77 H "Venom X" is rated at 908 lbs. @ 49 psi,

The 1500 rear wheel has a double race main weight carrying bearing in a more solid mounting than the single row one in the 1200 wheel that tends to wobble out the weakly reinforced mounting ring in the 1200 wheel (It's not the 1200 bearing that spins .... rather it's the pounding of the heavy bike and the fact that the rear drive side bearing is carrying most of the weight on this one bearing nearest the center of the wheel that pounds out the weakly reinforced aluminum area where the bearing mounts in the wheel).
The 1500 rear wheel arrangement comes with a larger diameter rear brake rotor which greatly increases rear braking, even though pad and caliper is the same as effective leverage and swept area is increased.
The 1500 rear uses slightly larger bolts to attach to the swing arm, hence drilling the 4 holes.


MORE NOTES:
The 1984-1987 GL1200s and 1988/'89 GL1500s all have 6 pin drive flanges ... while 1990-2000 GL1500s use 5 pin drive flanges.

The '84/'85 GL1200s use different 6 pin drive flanges than do '86/'87 GL1200s and '88/'89 GL-1500s.

The '84/'85 GL1200s use different rear wheels than do '86/'87 GL1200s.

When upgrading any year GL-1200 with parts from a GL-1500 you can either:

1) ... use GL-1200 rear wheel, brake rotor and caliper bracket, and 2 spacers, and either axle and ...
* ... use a '84/'85 rear wheel with a '84/'85 drive flange and any year 1500 final** <*>.
* ... use a '86/'87 rear wheel with a '86/'87 drive flange and any year 1500 final** <*>.
* ... use a '86/'87 rear wheel with a '88/'89 1500 drive flange and any year 1500 final**.
<*>.When using a 1200 wheel and a 1500 final, may have to discard plastic dust shield or machine wheel.

2) ... use GL-1500 16" rear wheel, larger brake rotor and caliper bracket, single spacer, and either axle and ...
* ... use a '88/'89 rear wheel with a '88/'89 1500 drive flange and any year 1500 final**.
* ... use a '90/'00 rear wheel with a '90/'00 1500 drive flange and any year 1500 final**.

The GL-1200 axle and GL-1500 axle are same except that the 1500 axle is longer which will allow some threads to be exposed after installing nut on final drive end. The shorter 1200 axle will not show threads with slightly thicker 1500 final drive so best to always use 1500 axle with 1500 final drive.
**Use the spacer that came with the final drive that resides between the final drive and wheel inside the splined adapter. The 1500 spacer is maybe 1 cm longer .... which is why the 1500 axle works best I guess.

In a 1200 you must always use a 1200 driveshaft.

The stock GL1200 rear caliper and 1500 caliper are the same so no swapping needed.
Image

Rusty Bike
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Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rusty Bike » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:21 pm

@CP. Thanks for the great info. I already have the new 15" rear tire. All new GL1200 seals and bearings are on their way. Have a machinist lined up to rework the wheel. Looks like I'll be going this rout, too late to change gears at this point. I was not aware of the 1500 upgrade. Next time around I'll go for the 1500 FD. Sounds highly beneficial, especially the increase in load caring ability. I bought this bike in April and would like to get some miles on it before the season is over. What I will do is, if i decide to keep her, assemble the 1500 parts and swap when the time is right. I'll save this info for that time. Thank you for your help. This may help others out there also. Sweet...Rusty Bike
PS: Oddly, it is the steel insert in my 86 SEi wheel that is worn. The aluminum part seems fine. I will look this over closely before it is sent to the machinist. Thanks again...Rusty

CrystalPistol
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1997 GL1500SE Lehman Trike

Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby CrystalPistol » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:58 pm

Rusty Bike wrote:@CP. Thanks for the great info. ... etc ... if i decide to keep her, assemble the 1500 parts and swap when the time is right. ... etc ...


You are welcomed .... and it's what I did maybe 8-10 years ago ..... which is likely why I haven't needed to yet?

But I'm going to go ahead and make the swap when rear tire time arrives, gonna do some braided stainless steel brake lines as well.

Here is a link to a thread here on this forum .... with some pictures. viewtopic.php?t=15720
Image

Rusty Bike
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Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rusty Bike » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:22 am

OK, back to this wheel. I took it to a machinist and he bored out the original steel insert then pushed in a sleeve. He froze the sleeve and heated the insert to accomplish this step. He then bored the sleeve to match the new bearing OD minus .0005". This work was done on a vertical mill. Cost was $140.00, fair price I feel. Looks good. One more step closer.

Still to do: Drop swingarm check bearings replace seals and lube U-joint, rebuild rear caliper, rebuild starter, install new shifter shaft seal, put all new seals in FD. Not looking forward to FD job, never had one apart. Clean everything up then reassemble. Buy plates and insurance then, Go Baby Go ))))>>>>>>

Rusty Bike
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:55 pm
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Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rusty Bike » Sun Jul 17, 2016 6:56 am

Hmm, just looked over the FD disassembly procedure in my Honda manual. Looks like one needs a bunch of special tools to put new seals in the FD. Mine is leaking but not real bad. I wonder what the dealer would charge. I sure wish I would have known about the 1500 upgrade before I bought the new tire. I would be time and money ahead. :roll:

CrystalPistol
Posts: 265
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Location: Shenandoah Valley of Virginia
Motorcycle: 1985 GL1200A
1997 GL1500SE Lehman Trike

Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby CrystalPistol » Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:41 am

You can buy the whole set of parts left over from a trike conversion now and just upgrade to the 1500 final drive now and use your 15" wheel & drive spline adapter ..... and upgrade the wheel & brake next time. Check around local GWRRA chapter meeting, ask around, someone has converted a 1500 to a trike and someone has all those parts laying someplace near by.

Look again at my long post above under "MORE NOTES" part .... I have reposted it's info as suited to using your "hopefully fixed" 86 wheel with a 1500 final drive.
The 1984-1987 GL1200s and 1988/'89 GL1500s all have 6 pin drive flanges ... while 1990-2000 GL1500s use 5 pin drive flanges.

The '84/'85 GL1200s use different 6 pin drive flanges than do '86/'87 GL1200s and '88/'89 GL-1500s.

The '84/'85 GL1200s use different rear wheels than do '86/'87 GL1200s.

When upgrading any year GL-1200 with parts from a GL-1500 you can either:

1) ... use GL-1200 rear wheel, brake rotor and caliper bracket, and 2 spacers, and either axle and ...
* ... use a '84/'85 rear wheel with a '84/'85 drive flange and any year 1500 final** <*>.
* ... use a '86/'87 rear wheel with a '86/'87 drive flange and any year 1500 final** <*>.
* ... use a '86/'87 rear wheel with a '88/'89 1500 drive flange and any year 1500 final** <*>.
(just fixed a slight mistake in punctuation symbols here as well)

**Use the spacer that came with the final drive that resides between the final drive and wheel inside the splined adapter. The 1500 spacer is maybe 1 cm longer .... which is why the 1500 axle works best I guess.

<*>.When using a 1200 wheel and a 1500 final, may have to discard plastic dust shield or machine wheel.


In a 1200 you must[b] always use a 1200 driveshaft[/b].
Image

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Rednaxs60
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Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rednaxs60 » Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:29 am

When you put the rear back together suggest putting in new prop shaft springs, fore and aft. Just did mine and it has made a significant difference in how the bike starts out in first from a standstill. Inexpensive little parts but do make a difference in performance. I checked the old spring (the one at the u-joint end) and it was about an 1/8 inch shorter than the new one.

Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

Rusty Bike
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Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rusty Bike » Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:39 pm

Well, I see the final shaft seal is leaking also. Have engine oil in the rubber boot. Seal is extinct. Part # 91201-ML8-003 ...No longer available. Seal dimensions 25x54x12. Honda OEM final shaft seal for GL1000/1100 Part # 91204-371-003/005 still available. Seal dimensions 25x54x7.5. The 1000/1100 seal is 4.5 mm thinner but it is double lip, overall configuration is the same. I have one on order and think it will work just fine. I'll get this SOB on the road one way or another! :twisted:

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Rednaxs60
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Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rednaxs60 » Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:33 am

Picked up an output shaft seal for my '85 LTD P/N 91204-371-005 (25X54X7). Was still available through Honda. Seems Honda made some changes between the two years.

Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

Rusty Bike
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Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rusty Bike » Sun Aug 07, 2016 11:34 am

Well, I received P/N 91204-371-005 (25X54X7) output shaft seal. No Go, will not work. My guess is that Honda lengthened the output shaft spline that the U joint runs on which made it necessary to set the seal back in the final case further. The correct part P/N 91201-ML8-330 25x54x12 is not available and so far I have not been able to locate one. :cry: I have decided to put a half of quart of Lucas engine stop leak in the oil pan and run it! While the pipes are down I replace the shifter shaft seal, rebuilt rear caliper, rebuilt starter. After the starter rebuild the bike would not crank. WTF! So, I charged the battery, no go, the solenoid was not pulling in. Everything else worked when the key is turned on. I got out the Electrical Troubleshooting Manual and read the preface on the starter circuit which mentions a shifter switch, hmmm. I put the shifter lever on the shaft and put the bike in neutral. Started Right UP. :lol: The starter job made a huge difference. The engine spins over twice as fast now.
I'm about done cleaning under the rear, the wheel bearing is fixed, new Michelin rear tire is mounted and balanced. Still need to change break and clutch fluid and air filter. I may be able to take this baby out for a ride soon. I hope! Wish me luck...Rusty

Rusty Bike
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Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rusty Bike » Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:35 pm

Sometime it pays to be slow. Ebay search fetcher found the correct final shaft seal, NOS. When it turned up I was notified by Email. The seal P/N 91201-ML8-330 25x54x12 is now in my hand. I have not yet installed the swing arm so in the seal goes. Yea!

Rusty Bike
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Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rusty Bike » Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:20 am

I think I screwed up. I put the rear wheel on before installing the mufflers. The header pipes are on but loose. Front crash bars are on. I have not tried to install mufflers yet but i came to the realization late last night. Will the mufflers go on if I lift the bike high enough to slip them under the rear tire? Damit Jim!

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SilverDave
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Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby SilverDave » Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:14 am

I think it should !

When I re-did my starter, after a couple of hours trying to wiggle it out, I finally gave up and just dropped the entire exhaust right to the floor , front and back .
And the Rear Tire was still on ...

I just lifted the whole mess back up when Starter was re-installed.

So,..
If your bike lift will go high enough , you should be able to lay the exhaust unit roughly in place, and lift it up to install .
( I had a scissors lift, and several blocks of wood to make it simpler)


SilverDave

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Rednaxs60
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Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rednaxs60 » Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:07 am

I'm with Dave on this. Only caviat is have a friend come over to help steady the bike when you hoist it up. Should be able to slip the muffler on and over the exhaust pipe(s).

If you aren't comfotable wth this, remove the rear wheel and put on the muffler. I'm certain a lot of us have had to backtrack on our work in order to go forward. The old saying - one step forward, three steps back (something Ike this).

It's all good.

Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

Rusty Bike
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Motorcycle: 86 GL1200 SEi, 78 Yamaha XS750SE, 86 Honda XL125, 4.5 HP belt drive Minibike my dad built, foot clutch!

Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rusty Bike » Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:57 pm

Nope, no way. Cross member hits before you can get the assembly up high enough to slip onto headers. Pulled the wheel and she went right together with the help of some wood cribbing. I have done the whole job with the bike on the center stand, pretty steady as is. Having a shot of coffee right now, this SOB will be together by morning.

80 Deg. dry and sunny tomorrow. I think I'll run her up to Erie, PA via the Perry Highway for a shakedown. Wish me luck...Rusty

Rusty Bike
Posts: 271
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Location: New castle, PA
Motorcycle: 86 GL1200 SEi, 78 Yamaha XS750SE, 86 Honda XL125, 4.5 HP belt drive Minibike my dad built, foot clutch!

Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rusty Bike » Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:59 pm

Well, I did some work on the clutch lever assembly after bleeding the system. Pumped out all the old fluid and replaced with nice clean new DOT 4. Also cleaned up the actuator plunger, switches and electrical connectors. Replaced the brass actuator barrel, which had a groove worn in it, that goes in the handle. Lubed everything with moly then reassembled. OK, here is my question, with the rear tire off the ground, trany in first, and clutch pulled in. I can turn the rear with one hand but there is a fair amount of drag, significantly more drag then with the trany in neutral. This drag is caused by the clutch not disengaging compleatly. Also with the engine running, rear wheel off the ground, trany in first the wheel will spin. When the clutch is pulled in the wheel continues to spin. Brakes will stop it obviously. Is this normal?

Rusty Bike
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Location: New castle, PA
Motorcycle: 86 GL1200 SEi, 78 Yamaha XS750SE, 86 Honda XL125, 4.5 HP belt drive Minibike my dad built, foot clutch!

Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rusty Bike » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:07 am

CrystalPistol I found a '95 final drive, wheel with rotor, brake assembly and other parts from a trike conversion. All low mileage. The guy said $75.00! Going to go look at the stuff in a bit. Thanks again for the great info you shared.

OK, I got the parts I needed. The fellow also has a set of '95 GL1500 saddlebags and rear fender peices, maroon/red in nice shape. Triple tree, kick and center stand, swingarm, and a couple of odd peices. I think the stuff is dam near free. He is in Beaver Falls, PA. Contact me if you are interested. I'll give you his phone #, nice guy...

Rusty Bike
Posts: 271
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Location: New castle, PA
Motorcycle: 86 GL1200 SEi, 78 Yamaha XS750SE, 86 Honda XL125, 4.5 HP belt drive Minibike my dad built, foot clutch!

Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rusty Bike » Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:15 pm

Well, before I put the shelter and fairing lowers on the bike I decided to check the function and output of the Throttle position sensor.. It is working smoothly using both an ohmeter and a V meter. 5 VDC input is dead on. With .110 spacer installed on throttle stop, TPS output is .697 VDC. To High! This may be the reason for my off idle hesitation and stumble around 1,500-2,300 RPM. Now in the process of chewing off the tamper proof screws that hold the TPS. I hope I can get the remainder of the mounting screws out of the intake plenum. All I'll have to work with is a little stub of a screw! This is making me queeze! :roll:


On a happier note, a fellow had a pair of NOS crash bars on Craigs List that he made! His company was a supplier for Honda. The fellow said he bent the tubing and did the welding in about 2008. He said that QC rejected them for a flaw in the chrome which I can not see, so he took them home. He said he had been trying to sell them for 3 years! Not a scratch on these babies, cheep too! Picked them up today. How bout that!

Rusty Bike
Posts: 271
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Location: New castle, PA
Motorcycle: 86 GL1200 SEi, 78 Yamaha XS750SE, 86 Honda XL125, 4.5 HP belt drive Minibike my dad built, foot clutch!

Re: SEi Rear wheel removed found problems.

Postby Rusty Bike » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:48 pm

Well, I did very little work on the bike today, sat on my ass........... while it took me thru the country side...TaDa, it's done!! After 25 years in boxes, I'm riding again. Bike is running and handling well. No death wobble now, it's gone. About a mile from the house the thing shut down, SOB, what did I screw up? Downshifted, it was still spinning but not running. Crap, my mind was racing. What the heck did I screw up? Then I saw the problem, I had hit the kill switch! Duh! :lol: So after working on my SEi all summer, she is good to go. I paid 1600 and put about a grand into it. Of cores I took it around and showed it off. # 1 comment was WOW, it looks new! Well, it's not perfect but it came out pretty dam nice. I'll start driving it to work tomorrow, bout 70 miles round trip. :D :D




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