new regulator, new problem


Information and questions on GL1200 Goldwings (1984-1987)
  • Sponsored Links
User avatar
wilmo
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 10:53 pm
Location: Ogden, Utah
Motorcycle: 1994 Goldwing SE Blue-the fastest color
2005 Yamaha Majesty 400

new regulator, new problem

Postby wilmo » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:42 am



Replaced my failing regulator with another Shindengan. As usual, soldered the new stator wires directly to the regulator input, the rest of the wires plugged into the existing connector. Started the bike, began charging just fine, even at idle. Increased the rpm to 3k and locked the throttle. voltage climbed up until it hit 14.8 v, measured at the battery, and then the regulator just shut off. Voltage dropped to 11.9. I didn't change rpm or any load. As soon as I touched the throttle (down) the voltage immediately jumped up again, 12.6v at idle. Dialed it up again and same thing happened. Every time at 14.8v regulator shuts down completely but comes back to life with a slight decrease in rpm's. At 2800 rpm voltage stays steady at 13.9v does not shut off, does not hit 14.8v. This is baffling, why does it shut off but then back on again with rpm decrease? Does the regulator ground through its case? or use wires from the plug? Also, the sense wire...what can I do to improve this, it's driving me nuts.
Stator is new in April and tested out as fully functional, 65vac across all 3 leg pairs @3k rpm. Resistance checks are all good, too.



User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7663
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: new regulator, new problem

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:33 am

The regulator does not ground through the case.It relies on a perfectly clean connection from both green wires,through the plug and a ring connector bolted to the frame.(close to the regulator).as far as the sense wire,With the bike running,measure with a DVM between the battery positive post and the black sense wire.Expect no more than 0.4 volts DC.
A increase will be reflected to the regulator.
If it's above 0.7 volts,temporarily add a wire (fused) from the battery positive post to the regulator black wire.If it stabilizes it,add the relay "fix" for this.
Also with your DVM and the bike running,you can measure voltage drop on the ground and power wires.
Same procedure.While running,measure for any volts between the battery negative post and both green wires on the regulator.It should be 0.00
Same for the positive post to the regulator red wires,it should be 0.00.
Bad connections would show up as some voltage.Up to 0.05 volts is acceptable.

User avatar
wilmo
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 10:53 pm
Location: Ogden, Utah
Motorcycle: 1994 Goldwing SE Blue-the fastest color
2005 Yamaha Majesty 400

Re: new regulator, new problem

Postby wilmo » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:44 am

thanks for the reply. What exactly do you mean by relay "fix"? Couldn't I just run a new sense wire to the battery and achieve the same results? And I'm assuming from your post that both green wires are ground. I'll check these when I get home but need some more info about the relay fix. The red wires I believe are eventually connected together before they reach the plug by the battery, I think I can just run them straight to the battery as well, correct?

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7663
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: new regulator, new problem

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:23 pm

If you connect the battery direct to the black sense wire it will draw some power and if left there will discharge your battery,thus the need for a "switched"sense wire.
You will find that most of the switched power wires have some voltage drop.Its not a problem with light bulbs but can have a affect on voltage control circuits.
Here's a picture of the mod.
The harness wire is used to energize the coil.Battery power feeds the relay and it feeds the R/R module.
This mod applies battery power direct to the module with no voltage loss from the bikes wiring.

The 2 red wires do bond to a single red wire in the harness and show up at the starter solenoid.The other red wire at the starter solenoid goes direct to the ignition switch.
At least inspect that plug and tend to any problems with the dog bone fuse

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7663
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: new regulator, new problem

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:25 pm

One more thing.Yes the green wires are ground and ALL voltage measurements need to be done while the bike is running.There must be power flowing through the wires.

User avatar
wilmo
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 10:53 pm
Location: Ogden, Utah
Motorcycle: 1994 Goldwing SE Blue-the fastest color
2005 Yamaha Majesty 400

Re: new regulator, new problem

Postby wilmo » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:14 pm

Thanks for that detailed information. One question, the black harness wire, is it the other end of the sense wire or should I be looking at the round solenoid can next to the battery?

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7663
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: new regulator, new problem

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:34 pm

The black switched sense wire is at the harness side of the regulator plug.Cut it there leaving enough to put connectors on to connect or solder to the relay.
Here's a post to read through of various fixes I've done with pictures too :D viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12522

User avatar
julimike54
Posts: 226
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:21 pm
Location: Euless, Texas
Motorcycle: 1986 GL1200A original owner
2016 HD FLTRU

Re: new regulator, new problem

Postby julimike54 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:43 pm

The "sense wire" you remove from R/R would be the black harness wire. The black wire is a 'switched' power wire, ie turn the key on and power is on the wire. Power on that wire will energize the relay and the 'battery' voltage will now go (through the relay) to the "sense wire" that is empty (you removed it) on the R/R. This will allow the R/R to see a truer voltage, than running through old wires and connectors. When I did this mod the bike sense wire was almost 1 v below the battery voltage, now it is the same as the battery voltage. With the condition I had before the battery was being over charged all the time and that shortens the life of the battery.
Image
Riding anything is a good day!
Mike

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7663
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: new regulator, new problem

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:12 pm

wilmo wrote: and then the regulator just shut off. Voltage dropped to 11.9. I didn't change rpm or any load. As soon as I touched the throttle (down) the voltage immediately jumped up again,


This comment is what bothers me...Why would the voltage drop..Did the regulator shut off or loose a connection..and then without doing anything more than reducing the rpm the voltage comes back up....
Why does this sound like a bad dogbone fuse.....or a corroded/burnt connection.
When throttling down,there's less current developed...easier to jump across a fractured fuse or pass through a bad connector....

That's the reason for this in my post "Same for the positive post to the regulator red wires,it should be 0.00."
This measurement would show any voltage drop from the battery positive post all the way to the regulator module.

Yes the relay mod is needed IF there's a overcharge or intermittent problem.I don't know for certain if the regulator will run properly if the sense wire is erratic.It must maintain battery volts on that wire when the bike is running.This mod is just one part of stabilizing the system.
Any bad connection on the regulator,ground or 3 yellow wires must be adderssed too.

User avatar
wilmo
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 10:53 pm
Location: Ogden, Utah
Motorcycle: 1994 Goldwing SE Blue-the fastest color
2005 Yamaha Majesty 400

Re: new regulator, new problem

Postby wilmo » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:12 pm

that is the most confusing part where the regulator just shuts off. I can recreate this every time. It makes no sense to me that rpm makes these changes. I have run all new wires soldered from stator straight to regulator, did that yesterday when I installed it.The dog bone has been replaced with a 30A ATO fuse and marine style holder. Tonight I'm going to address the output side of the regulator, by measuring the way you said and just simply bypassing the plug and soldering straight to all the wires. I will probably get to the sense wire relay later when I get a relay. Who knows, at this moment that sense wire could be dropping 2v, never have measured it so I'll find that out. I also don't know if the grounds are good either. Time to seriously look at this. One thing different from the old reg-it now charges at idle where before the old one didn't. Had to bring it up to 1500 rpm before the volts would come up to 12 or higher so this is an improvement of sorts. If doing all this fixes this thing to be stable, I may reconsider selling it. I have a LOT of time and money invested in this bike but this charging incident is being the last straw. Literally, the only thing I haven't done to it is the steering stem bearings or anything to the carbs, they don't seem to need anything.

User avatar
wilmo
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 10:53 pm
Location: Ogden, Utah
Motorcycle: 1994 Goldwing SE Blue-the fastest color
2005 Yamaha Majesty 400

Re: new regulator, new problem

Postby wilmo » Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:40 pm

These are what I measured at the output of the reg/rec;
+ battery to red/w wires (s) = .22 to .26 fluctuating @ 850 rpm battery voltage at 12.6
lock rpm at 3000rpm, monitor battery voltage simultaneously, red wires stable at .26v until battery voltage hits 14.8 then regulator shuts down, red voltage drops to .008 battery voltage dropping. touch throttle down, both voltage levels immediate back up and repeat

+ battery to sense wire = .6v @ 3300 rpm, .35v @ 850 rpm does not change when regulator cycles itself off
- battery to green = .012v each all rpm does not change when regulator cycles itself off
battery voltage engine off 12.26 v

Definitely something going on with the red/w wires. grounds look quite good, sense wire, meh, you tell me. Not sure where to go from here.
I believe the regulator has some sort of OP circuit and shuts down when it hits a high level. But what is allowing this to happen? Sense wire THAT sensitive??

UPDATE: Just did this again but watched both meters at 2800 rpm. the regulator cycled off and on again by itself. battery reading 14.6 at shutdown, red wires .26. Duration was about 3-7 seconds off cycle, varying. Sense wire never changed .6v. I did not vary the rpms on this test.

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7663
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: new regulator, new problem

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:52 pm

I'll accept that your voltage loss is tolerable and is not the cause of your problem.Ground OK,sense below 0.75 volts,voltage drop on the output less than 0.3 volts.Only 2 possibilities left.
Your stator dies or the regulator module is defective.
While it's running,attempt to monitor the AC volts between any two pair of yellow wires.I think you'll see them just in the 12 volt AC range.Check both when it's charging and when it quits.
See if the AC volts drop or raise when it quits.
If you have a AC clamp amp meter ,attach it to one leg of the stator.I remember near 7 amp AC.
What I'm wondering is what happens when this quits charging.
The idea is if the stator dies,most if not all the AC would drop off including the amps.
If the stator volts goes higher than expected,the amps should drop indicating a no load (the regulator opened up).
If the stator output drops a bit and the amps stay up the stator is shunting the volts to ground and not releasing it.

User avatar
wilmo
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 10:53 pm
Location: Ogden, Utah
Motorcycle: 1994 Goldwing SE Blue-the fastest color
2005 Yamaha Majesty 400

Re: new regulator, new problem

Postby wilmo » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:05 pm

Knowing that both have been replaced and the stator is a Randakk's new vs regulator used, logic leans toward the regulator. But I would have to bare two yellow wires again or find a clamp meter. I'll ask around, I do know a couple of HVAC people. I'll let you know what I find. You've been very helpful. I thought the red wire voltage drop was excessive....

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7663
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: new regulator, new problem

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:19 pm

0.25 volts is not excessive sense there's up to 30 amp going down that wire.Over 0.75 volts is when I like to pucker up.
A clamp will help but stabbin the yellow wires is a bonus to verify the stator is still putting out.
Remember that If the regulator opens up,the AC current would go to zero and the volts go up.
If the regulator dead shorts out the AC will be reduced and the AC amps will max out.
If the stator opens up both the AC amps drops and so would the AC volts.

User avatar
wilmo
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 10:53 pm
Location: Ogden, Utah
Motorcycle: 1994 Goldwing SE Blue-the fastest color
2005 Yamaha Majesty 400

Re: new regulator, new problem

Postby wilmo » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:48 pm

Wrap up. Ultimately was a bad regulator. Another one checked out and now all is well. On with the ride.




Return to “GL1200 Information & Questions”




Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ohara, thomba and 2 guests