Alternator conversion kit.


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AZgl1800
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by AZgl1800 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:37 pm



ernest, please edit this phrase:

The '85 LTD alternator is ~500 amps (at 5000 RPM)

to 50.0 amps, not the ~500 amps you show.


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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:29 pm

Ok so 50 or 60amp fuses should be ok. Im just wanting to make sure im not stunting myself with the fuse. I know that the alternator will only provide the amps thats being drawn from it. But with it being one wire that means all the power for the bike is getting provided on that line. If the bike tries to draw more power than the fuse is than it will blow and ill have NO power at all to anything. I understand protecting the 32yr old wiring on the bike but i just want to make sure that i can add a few things like more lights better amp for the stereo etc. And not be cutting the amperage capabilities too short. I know i shouldnt ever need 110 on the bike but i dont want to set the max power to the bike too low either and not be able to run all the acc i want (like heated clothing and the like).

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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:20 pm

Ok so i ordered a power bus and fuse block. And an assortment of fuses to keep handy on the bike.

If i run the alt wire to the bus and connect the red and red white wires to the bus do i still need to run a fused line to the battery and what do i do with the black and the green wires? Do they just get capped off (or removed completely)?

And does the line from the alt to the power bus need to be fused or is that taken care of already by the rest of the bikes power system after connecting up the red/red white wires?

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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Rednaxs60 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:43 pm

AZgl1800 wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:37 pm
ernest, please edit this phrase:

The '85 LTD alternator is ~500 amps (at 5000 RPM)

to 50.0 amps, not the ~500 amps you show.
Meant ~500 watts at 5000 RPM, my bad.
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Rednaxs60 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:56 pm

Chompper26 wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:29 pm
Ok so 50 or 60amp fuses should be ok. Im just wanting to make sure im not stunting myself with the fuse. I know that the alternator will only provide the amps thats being drawn from it. But with it being one wire that means all the power for the bike is getting provided on that line. If the bike tries to draw more power than the fuse is than it will blow and ill have NO power at all to anything. I understand protecting the 32yr old wiring on the bike but i just want to make sure that i can add a few things like more lights better amp for the stereo etc. And not be cutting the amperage capabilities too short. I know i shouldnt ever need 110 on the bike but i dont want to set the max power to the bike too low either and not be able to run all the acc i want (like heated clothing and the like).
Here's my take on the fuse situation. I agree with Wingadmin that the electrical system for the '85 LTD is fused with 30 amp fuses at the starter solenoid, and for the wire connected to the main relay/brake light relay/air pump relay/tail light relay. You will notice on the power system schematic in the Electrical Troubleshooting Manual - page 24, that the red/white wires wires from the regulator join the red wire form the starter solenoid to the ignition switch after the 30 amp fuse in the starter solenoid. The 30 amp fuse in the starter solenoid is only in play when power is being drawn from the battery, and this is not the case when the bike is producing 14.2 VDC and providing power to the electrical system.

A 110 amp alternator is substantial, and a bit overkill I'd think; however, it is what you want. I'm thinking you may not be able to tuck it into the space available without doing a number on the lower fairing. It also has to clear the TPS as well. A 55 amp alternator is a good size in amperage and in spacial size, tucks in behind the lower fairing, just misses the TPS.

The 30 amp fuse that is in line going to the main relay/brake light relay/air pump relay/tail light relay is always in play and is drawing power from the battery/alternator power depending on the electrical system voltage. You will also notice that the wire is not connected to the battery but at the starter solenoid - a pseudo power junction of sorts. A person could play the devil's advocate and mention that this is an example of where there is an additional load connected at the battery; however, it is close but not on the battery itself, and it was designed this way not as an afterthought/add-on (can't be certain of this, but it's my story and I'm sticking to it :roll:).

Here is a schematic of the power junction on my '85 LTD. I have a sensing wire connected that you will not have - you have a one wire alt install, mine is a three wire.


In this schematic, I have a 30 amp in-line fuse going to the ignition switch to protect the electrical system wiring. The 10 GA wire going to the starter solenoid is much the same as per the OEM wiring. There is no need for a second wire to the starter solenoid with this setup. I have connected the battery tender connector to this bus bar because I also use it for heated clothing, headset USB connection. The number of bus bar connections will vary depending on what you buy.

The 10/12 GA wire to the aux fuse panel is a new install that I did when I first bought the bike. It goes to the fuse block through a relay. The relay is controlled by a 12 VDC switched wire (low current and small gauge wire). This relay ensures that all devices connected to the aux fuse block have power when the key is on, but none when the key is off. This fuse block is located in the trunk. I have my electronic connectors, coil 12 VDC supply, driving lights, horns - FIAMMS Freeway Blasters, and a couple of other devices connected to this fuse block.

This install maintains the OEM electrical system wiring design, and works well.It will also allow you to expand the electrical load as long as you properly fuse each add-on. An issue may be the in-line fuses and where to locate them for ease of access, I might need an aux fuse block with more than 6 fuses. Also remember that the alt output is related to the engine RPM.

To complement this install, I have a new, separate ground bus bar installed as well. Did this when I first bought the bike as well. Grounds and connectors can be a nuisance.

Hope this provides more information regarding fusing.

Cheers
Last edited by Rednaxs60 on Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Rednaxs60 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:04 pm

Chompper26 wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:20 pm
Ok so i ordered a power bus and fuse block. And an assortment of fuses to keep handy on the bike.

If i run the alt wire to the bus and connect the red and red white wires to the bus do i still need to run a fused line to the battery and what do i do with the black and the green wires? Do they just get capped off (or removed completely)?

If you connect the red/white wires (connecting both red/white wires to the bus bar means you don't have to dig into the wiring harness and remove the two to one splice) and alt output wire to the bus bar, no need to do any fusing except that from the alt. This fuse is really a fail safe for the entire system.

The green wires get capped off as these are ground wires.

The black wire is live when the key is on. It is a good wire to use to switch a relay(s) on off. Keep it available, you may need it, but remember it is live when the ignition switch is ON.


And does the line from the alt to the power bus need to be fused or is that taken care of already by the rest of the bikes power system after connecting up the red/red white wires?
Fusing the alt output wire is a precaution that is prudent and protects the electrical system from an alternator malfunction - can't hurt.
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:26 pm

Awesome info thank you very much i didnt even think about a bus for ground but thats a great idea. Ill be adding that in too.

So the black wire thats hanging out there can be hooked up to anything i want to only operate with the key on then? I should prolly put that to a block too for that purpose. But for now ill just cap it off too till i get ready to hookup something that i need that option for.

Again thank you all for the great information ill post pics once the wiring is in place and once the alternator is all mounted up and working.

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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:38 pm

Im gonna keep that wiring diagram handy cause eventually (prolly after it warms up alot more) im going to cut out and redo all the wiring on the bike with fresh new wire and connectors and run a similar setup to what you have (although without the sensing wire unless i swap to a 2 or 3 wire alt). The power bus (which honestly i have never even thought of before) gives me several new ideas for luggage lighting and light acc i would like to eventually run.

Congrats you just made this fun for me now that i know i can do alot more with this setup than i thought before :D

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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:22 pm

I got the new alternator in today and it has a rubber cover over 2 connectors on the top. The left connector is labeled 1R and the right connector is labeled 2F. Does this mean it can be hooked up as a 2 or 3 wire hookup? And if so where do the wires hook up?
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The tab on the left is marked 1R the one on the right is marked 2F.
The tab on the left is marked 1R the one on the right is marked 2F.


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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Rednaxs60 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:50 pm

Chompper26 wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:22 pm
I got the new alternator in today and it has a rubber cover over 2 connectors on the top. The left connector is labeled 1R and the right connector is labeled 2F. Does this mean it can be hooked up as a 2 or 3 wire hookup? And if so where do the wires hook up?
Recommend you go back to the supplier for install directions or browse the internet; however, did some digging/research looking at alternator connections. Here's my take on what I found on the internet regarding this type of alternator connection configuration - just brainstorming and not recommending this is the way to connect, others may differ please chime in.

The 1R is from the regulator to an indicator light. The 2F is the field/sense wire to the regulator to regulate the alternator field.

Here's a schematic I took off the internet to illustrate:





GM 3 wire
GM 3 wire

It is also possible these are not connected to the regulator inside the alternator.

Just brainstorming as I have mentioned. Let us know how you make out.

Cheers
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Wolf Rider » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:08 am

Thank you for the specific information i feel alot more confident about being able to complete this now. And i asked about the amp of the alternator because i found a 90amp one that is actually quite small in size and will fit in the space without even having to modify the lower fairing beyond taking out the vent ducting. And when i say i found it thats exactly what i mean it was in my shed and didnt even know it was there till a few days ago.
How do we know that's a 90 amp alt?
You really do not need anything more than 50 amp any how.
Remember that the wiring size will dictate your maximum amperage alowable.

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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by WingAdmin » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:34 pm

Wolf Rider wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:08 am
Thank you for the specific information i feel alot more confident about being able to complete this now. And i asked about the amp of the alternator because i found a 90amp one that is actually quite small in size and will fit in the space without even having to modify the lower fairing beyond taking out the vent ducting. And when i say i found it thats exactly what i mean it was in my shed and didnt even know it was there till a few days ago.
How do we know that's a 90 amp alt?
You really do not need anything more than 50 amp any how.
Remember that the wiring size will dictate your maximum amperage alowable.
The more load you have on an alternator, the more stress, heat and wear. A 50 amp alternator with a 45 amp load (at 90% of design limit) is not going to last anywhere near as long as a 90 amp alternator with the same 45 amp load (which is at only 50% design limit).

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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Wolf Rider » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:24 pm

The more load you have on an alternator, the more stress, heat and wear. A 50 amp alternator with a 45 amp load (at 90% of design limit) is not going to last anywhere near as long as a 90 amp alternator with the same 45 amp load (which is at only 50% design limit).
I have read this over and over again. At first read it makes perfect sense. I thought, what a brilliant reply.
Some things bother me about it though.
1) It was stated that the alt was pretty small for a 90 amp. My thoughts are that the larger sizes are partially due to expected heat dissipation. I would say the larger the surface area of the alt the cooler it would run given equal power generation than one that is smaller in surface area. Your 90 amp alt may actually run hotter at any given output because of its small size.
2) Design capacity does not impact on efficiency at lower power generation. That is, a 90 amp alt running at 50% is no more efficient than a 45 amp alt running at 100%. If there is no draw, there is no load, does not effect efficiency. There is however, the impact of parasitic load of just free spinning. A larger capacity alt will have more loss of power by spinning more mass for nothing. I would throw it out there that a smaller capacity alt would be more efficient given all else equal.
3) RPM of alt is more important and more overlooked. Choice of drive pulley size to alt pulley size has more impact than alt capacity.
A lot of guys are opting for a 4" drive to a 2" alt pulley giving a 2:1 rotating speed ratio. This is so generating can start at a lower rpm so that the battery is charging even at idle. This also means that when engine rpm is 5000 the alt is spinning at 10,000. Are the alt bearings up to it?
4) A three wire alt with 35 to 50 amps will likely start charging at 700-750 rpm. A 90 amp single wire alt will not likely start charging until 1300-1400 rpm, and then maybe keep charging down to 900 to 1000 rpm.
5) Not all alts are the same and even the same model from the same batch of manufacture can have a lot of variability. If you have a means of bench testing, it may be worth it.
6) The larger the wire gauge, the better.
7) The larger the battery capacity, the better. I have seen set ups where a second battery in parallel is configured in a side saddle(hard pannier)

Please jump in and dispute if you do not agree. I'm always ready to be corrected and have my horizons expanded.
I could be wrong on a couple of points.
I'm not an electrical engineer. I'm an operating engineer. My experience is with 5MW, 7MW, and 12MW stationary power generators that produce DC that gets inverted to AC. These are essentially big ass alternators the size of a bus.

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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Rednaxs60 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:22 pm

Purchased a clamp meter so I could identify the load on the bike at idle - have an external alternator fitted.

At idle - 17 amps to operate the bike - the '85 LTD FI bike needs more power than a carbureted model hence the difference in the rotor/stator unit size.

2 sets of driving lights, rad fan, and heated liner plugged in draws 28-29 amps at idle, add in a GPS and I might be pushing 30 amps. Heated gloves, a couple of more so say max of 33 amps.

For my money a 55 amp alt is more than sufficient, as would be a 40 amp alt. New external alternators are probably more efficient than the three piece alternator units that were originally on our bikes; ergo, 40/55 amp units are more than sufficient.

If you are using upwards of 40 amps, you would have to have your bike lit up like a Christmas tree, and not using LEDs.

It is to be expected but not necessarily the case, that it is easier on an alternator when 50 to 60 percent of the max output is maintained or thereabouts; however, since our usage is not continuous, or even daily in most cases, a smaller alternator considering size and space constraints is more than adequate.

Thinking out loud.

Cheers
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by DenverWinger » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:56 am

Wolf Rider wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:24 pm
A lot of guys are opting for a 4" drive to a 2" alt pulley giving a 2:1 rotating speed ratio. This is so generating can start at a lower rpm so that the battery is charging even at idle. This also means that when engine rpm is 5000 the alt is spinning at 10,000. Are the alt bearings up to it?
Look at the pully sizes on your car/truck. The pully on the alternator is usually a third or a quarter the size of the crank pully, at cruising speed (probably 2k-3k engine RPM) your alternator is probably spinning 8,000-12,000....
They say 98% of all Hardleys ever made are still on the road..... The other 2% made it home. :lol:
(I stole this from somebody on another GW site...) :roll:

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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:56 pm

Ok and now im not getting any spark which i was when the regulator was connected so something needs to be connected that isnt. I have the green wires seperated and capped, yellow wires just disconnected and capped off red/red white wires connected to the power bar. The alternator connected to the power bar. The black acc wire has a connector but not connected to anything. What needs to be connected back up? Because it would start but not charge with the rectifier/ regulator installed. Now with that chopped out i dont get any spark. The green wires get a pulse when hitting the start button. I have checked the ign switch and the engine cutoff switch all the way to the coils which get power just fine. Checked all the fuses and all are good. Im at a complete loss as to what is the problem here.

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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:02 pm

No clue what is going on need some help.
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The red/red white are hooked up alternator is hooked up.  Green, black and yellow are not hooked up.  I get no spark but did before taking out the r/r.
The red/red white are hooked up alternator is hooked up. Green, black and yellow are not hooked up. I get no spark but did before taking out the r/r.


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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Rednaxs60 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:06 pm

What is this wire for - see attachment and arrow.


The wire from the alt should go to the fuse and from the fuse to the bus bar. Everything looks good. There is another issue such as no power to the coils. Check the black/white wire going to the coils. It is from the engine stop switch, power needs to be there. Until the bike is started this circuit doesn't do anything.
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:14 pm

Alt wire just tucked over left it a bit long in case i had to move it to another location.

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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:21 pm

Its hooked from alt to fuse block then from fuse block to bus. The red white are connected to bus everything else is capped off/ not connected. The coils get power already checked the cutoff switch to the coils. Like i said though before cutting out the r/r the bike would start but not charge as the stator was bad. So should i reconnect the r/r? (Except the yellow wires) would that damage anything? The green wires get a 12v pulse when i push the start button. I know these are supposed to be ground but do they do anything else like power something and ground? Like i said i dont know whats going on here.

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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Rednaxs60 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:25 pm

Connecting the RR back up without the stator wires will do nothing on start. Disconnect the red/white wires from the bus bar and give the bike a crank. There is something else happening here and it is not the install of the alt or the wiring for it.
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:36 pm

A short maybe? On the red/white wires? Could that cause the plugs to not get power?

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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:45 pm

Ill hafta wait till morning as the battery is low on juice now from checking the power to coils plugs switch etc etc.

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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:58 pm

If the bike starts with the red white wires disconnected what does that mean as far as fixing it? Do i need to run a new wire from the bus to the battery? Or to something else etc?

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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Rednaxs60 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:32 pm

Old wiring is a treat especially if you have had electrical gremlins before as you mention. If the bike starts with the red/white wires disconnected, there may be something in the wiring, but it should start.

I have replaced all the old wiring. I have a 12 GA going from the bus bar to the starter solenoid. I have the ignition switch red wire connected to the bus bar as well. I have removed the old red and red/white wire to the starter solenoid. Only need one wire from the bus bar to the starter solenoid. If you put in new wiring, take the connection out of the wiring harness where the red/white and red wires are connected.

As I mentioned, having the original OEM wiring completely disconnected should not affect starting the engine.

Cheers


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