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1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:52 am
by doccuke
Greetings from the frozen tundra of NH

I am a noob to Gold Wings. The bike in question is actually not mine. I have a friend Tim, that had a TBI from a bike wreck that almost ended his life. On his road to recovery he had to surrender his license which was heartbreaking to him and his wife Lisa.

He has come a long way, but not ready to ride again yet. Last summer myself and a fellow biker brother found this 1985 Goldwing 1200 LTD with a Voyager kit installed. We decided to purchase it and give it to our friends , Tim and Lisa, so that they could ride again!! So Lisa went and took the rider ED course and got her motorcycle endorsement. Once we bought this bike for them they were back in the wind only difference is Tim is on the back and Lisa is on the front!! They were beyond thrilled!

I just wanted to give y'all a backround on why this bike came to be.

So, end of last summer Lisa was riding home and about 1/4 mile from home the bike dies. No lights, no nothing. I did some digging online and found that apparently, as I'm sure you all know about, the main fuse and holder have known issues. I advised Tim to check the main fuse and sure enough it was done as was the fuse socket. He replaced both and everything looked good except that now it starts and as long as he holds the starter button in it runs, but as soon as he releases the starter button it stops running.

Before I go trying to troubleshoot this issue I figured checking in on here would make sense as it may be something you all are aware of.

Any suggestions appreciated

Thanks

PEACE
DOC

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:20 pm
by DaveO430
Did he happen to replace the starter solenoid? If so and if it is aftermarket it is wired differently than the original.

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:26 pm
by doccuke
I have not had my hands on it personally yet. I will ask Tim. He may or may not remember unfortunately.

I imagine if he did replace it I should be able to tell by looking at it given it will look all clean & new

I won't lay eyes on it until next weekend most likely

If it is a new solonoid what should be different about how it is wired?

Thanks
DOC

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:46 pm
by doccuke
DaveO430 wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:20 pm
Did he happen to replace the starter solenoid? If so and if it is aftermarket it is wired differently than the original.
Tim said "Replaced the whole solonoid, main fuse & holder included"

I attached a pic of what he replaced

Thanks
DOC

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:14 pm
by DaveO430
doccuke wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:26 pm


If it is a new solonoid what should be different about how it is wired?

Thanks
DOC
You have to check with the wiring unplugged which terminals are hot, the red & red/white go to those. The other 2 doesn't matter which wire goes to which. Strange and unfortunate things can happen if connected wrong.

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:00 pm
by doccuke
"You have to check with the wiring unplugged which terminals are hot, the red & red/white go to those. The other 2 doesn't matter which wire goes to which. Strange and unfortunate things can happen if connected wrong."

Apologies, I'm not quite clear on what you are saying

The red & red/white wires go where?

Thanks

DOC

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:20 pm
by DaveO430
doccuke wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:00 pm
"

The red & red/white wires go where?

Thanks

DOC
There are 4 spade terminals on the solenoid. With the battery connected 2 of them will have power from the main fuse, put those 2 wires to those 2 terminals.

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:31 pm
by doccuke
OK I will check it out next weekend

Thanks

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:52 am
by Maz
".....starts and as long as he holds the starter button in it runs, but as soon as he releases the starter button it stops running."
Not sure if the 1200's have a ballast resistor on the coils, but this is exactly the symptoms you get on the 1000's when the resistor fails or becomes detached.
Maz

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:37 am
by doccuke
Funny you mention that. I had a 1974 Dodge Sart Sport with the exact same symptom and it was the ballast resister. When starting the ballast resister was bypassed

I was able to get the car to limp home by jumping the ballast resister out. It ran a little funky, but it got me home

I will see it it has one on the bike

Thanks

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:11 pm
by doccuke
Maz wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:52 am
".....starts and as long as he holds the starter button in it runs, but as soon as he releases the starter button it stops running."
Not sure if the 1200's have a ballast resistor on the coils, but this is exactly the symptoms you get on the 1000's when the resistor fails or becomes detached.
Maz
Did some research and it seems it does have a ballast resistor
Where is it located on your bike? I know this one is different, but it may be in the same general vicinity

Lots of places to look on these bikes, allot of real estate there!! LOL

Thanks

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:25 pm
by DaveO430
Yes they do have a resistor but it is not the type that has a bypass for starting.

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:09 pm
by doccuke
DaveO430 wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:25 pm
Yes they do have a resistor but it is not the type that has a bypass for starting.
So the symptom of the bike only running with the starter button depressed would not be an issue with the ballast resistor on this bike?

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:23 pm
by DaveO430
doccuke wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:09 pm
DaveO430 wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:25 pm
Yes they do have a resistor but it is not the type that has a bypass for starting.
So the symptom of the bike only running with the starter button depressed would not be an issue with the ballast resistor on this bike?
No, it would not.

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:54 pm
by RedFlash
Hi, Tim here, if Doc wasn't such a big oaf, I call him a sweetie, along with our friend, Tom, who did this for us. Super kind of them to think of this for us, I used to ride an '03 Valkyrie that did something similar, main fuse melted down on the way to Maine, had to repair it on the road, no solenoid involved. I hitched a ride to a parts store, got crimp connectors, heavy wire and crimpers and had her running in short order. I had read about it happening on the Valkyrie boards, much like the light switch problem, if you wire the driving lights to the headlight connections. We'll get it right before it warms up, I hope! Thank you for any helpful suggestions I can do, in advance! (20 bucks says it's something simple, once found!) I am a former electronics engineering technician, now medically retired, due to the aneurism) My wife, Lisa, loves having her license and enjoys the bike very much! At her work they call her the Bad Ass Biker Nurse, as she is an Elder Services visiting nurse.

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:04 pm
by RedFlash
for further information, the replacement solenoid was a HONDA part, the only difference, allegedly, is the main fuse, is a bar type, instead of the usual plastic one in a holder. I expect the part to be a direct and wired the same, replacement. This was according to the dealer....

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:34 pm
by DaveO430
RedFlash wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:04 pm
for further information, the replacement solenoid was a HONDA part, the only difference, allegedly, is the main fuse, is a bar type, instead of the usual plastic one in a holder. I expect the part to be a direct and wired the same, replacement. This was according to the dealer....
The "bar" type, commonly known as a dogbone fuse, is the original type. If the one replaced was not like that it was probably aftermarket and may have been rewired.

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:12 am
by RedFlash
Yeah, the one that fried was round, the new one was square. Doc is coming over to help me with it tonight. And for clarification, "oaf" is not a derogatory term for Doc, more of a term of endearment, he is a much respected, biker brother and friend ;) He's just a big boy, I wouldn't wanna have pissed off at me ;)

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:44 am
by Rednaxs60
Been following this thread with interest. There is an additional circuit that Honda has on the '85 LTD that is not on the carb models. It is a 30 amp circuit that is connected to the battery terminal of the starter solenoid and provides power to the main CFI relay and a couple of others.

You mention that the engine starts and runs when the start button is pressed. I'm thinking that when the new starter solenoid was installed this wire may be connected to the starter terminal instead of the battery terminal. Here's a picture of what how to hook up the starter solenoid:


The green/red and yellow/red wires can be connected to either non-live terminal. There is a 30 amp dog bone fuse on this circuit as well and the fuse connector sits in on the right side of the battery as you look at it. Since the engine starts when the start button is pressed, I surmise that this fuse is good as well.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:48 am
by doccuke
DaveO430 wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:14 pm
doccuke wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:26 pm


If it is a new solonoid what should be different about how it is wired?

Thanks
DOC
You have to check with the wiring unplugged which terminals are hot, the red & red/white go to those. The other 2 doesn't matter which wire goes to which. Strange and unfortunate things can happen if connected wrong.
Good morning
I got to look at the bike last night and verified exactly what Tim had said. It starts and runs as long as the starter button is depressed. Tim bought the replacement solenoid from a Honda dealer
Are you saying that we would possibly need to remove the wires from the connector ? As it sits the connector can only plug in one way as it is keyed.

Is it possibly simply not the correct solenoid?

If where the red and red/white wires are connected are not where they should be we would have to either posh the wires out of the connector to the correct position or cut and solder the wires.
It seems to me if that were the case we would be better off trying to obtain the correct solenoid if possible

DOC

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:23 am
by Rednaxs60
Is the 30 amp circuit connected to the battery terminal and not the starter terminal? If this circuit is connected to the starter side of the starter solenoid, the engine will start when the starter button is pressed and stop when the button is let go.

If the bike is starting when the starter button is pressed, the starter solenoid red, red/white, green/red and yellow/red wires are connected correctly. The only other wire connected to the starter solenoid is the 30 amp circuit that provides power to the tail light relay, CFI main relay, brake light relay, and air pump relay.

The symptoms you are mentioning indicate that this circuit is operating because the engine starts when you press the start button. The fact that the engine stops when the start button is let go would indicate that the power to the CFI main relay is lost and as such, I submit that this 30 amp circuit is on the wrong starter solenoid terminal. I would check this first before you do any more wiring changes.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:55 am
by doccuke
Rednaxs60 wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:23 am
Is the 30 amp circuit connected to the battery terminal and not the starter terminal? If this circuit is connected to the starter side of the starter solenoid, the engine will start when the starter button is pressed and stop when the button is let go.

If the bike is starting when the starter button is pressed, the starter solenoid red, red/white, green/red and yellow/red wires are connected correctly. The only other wire connected to the starter solenoid is the 30 amp circuit that provides power to the tail light relay, CFI main relay, brake light relay, and air pump relay.

The symptoms you are mentioning indicate that this circuit is operating because the engine starts when you press the start button. The fact that the engine stops when the start button is let go would indicate that the power to the CFI main relay is lost and as such, I submit that this 30 amp circuit is on the wrong starter solenoid terminal. I would check this first before you do any more wiring changes.

Hope this helps.

Cheers
I posted a pic above, everything is connected the only way it can be connected
There are 2 connectors that are secured with a nut, one goes to the battery the other to the starter.
The 4 wires are in the connector which only plugs in one way

I do not see any way to connect it other then how it is connected

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:05 am
by RedFlash
Yes, the solenoid main connections arearked "B" for battery, and "M" for motor and are connected as such. I understand if they were reversed how this might go, but it was pretty easy to follow along with, unless the part is mis-marked.

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:24 am
by doccuke
RedFlash wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:05 am
Yes, the solenoid main connections arearked "B" for battery, and "M" for motor and are connected as such. I understand if they were reversed how this might go, but it was pretty easy to follow along with, unless the part is mis-marked.
I'm thinking maybe that is the case, that they are mis marked

Re: 1985 1200 LTD Starting problem

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:30 am
by RedFlash
I guess we'll find out tomorrow!