86 gl1200 starts without key


Information and questions on GL1200 Goldwings (1984-1987)
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Lucky713
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Motorcycle: 1986 GL1200 Aspencade SEI

86 gl1200 starts without key

Postby Lucky713 » Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:44 am



I have a 1986 GL1200 Aspencade SEI. I recently had some problems with it not starting. After taking all the farings off so I could trace the wiring, I found a couple of the connections from the regulator/rectifier scortched. One wire had actually gotten so hot It burned through the plastic. Put a new Regulator/rectifier in. when I hooked everything up, the lights & fuel pump come on with out even putting the key in. I can even hit the start button, and the bike starts right up, with no key in the ignition. I have replaced the solynoid switch next to the battery thinking that was the problem. NOT. I can still start the bike without a key in the ignition.the only way to turn off the fuel pump and the lights is to disconnect the battery. When I do start it with the Key in the on position, the only way I can turn the bike off is to hit the kill switch, or unhook the battery. I made sure that the wires were hooked up exactly the same when I replaced the regulator/rectifier. Does anyone have any idea what I should be looking for next. Just one more thing, I did not have this problem prior to replacing the regulator/rectifier. I'm pretty good mecahnically, and would like to avoid having to take it to a shop.

Thanks for any help you can give



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RBGERSON
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Re: 86 gl1200 starts without key

Postby RBGERSON » Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:15 am

Sounds like two wires have metaled together some where in the start circuit to complete the run connection..get a wiring diagram and trace the wires from the ignition back. Could be in the switch itself too!! Ignition or at the handlebars gets my vote
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

FAIR WINDS,
RB

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Lucky713
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Re: 86 gl1200 starts without key

Postby Lucky713 » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:27 am

Thanks for the response RB. I have not pulled the ignition switch yet because I have been thinking all along it was something I did at when I put in the new Regulater/Rectifier. When I first had the problem with the bike not starting, I actually pulled the kill switch and starter button assembly all apart. I cleaned up all the contacts and put everything back together, and at that time I was not having this problem. Therefore I think your vote is probably correct, seeing as though the connecter coming off the regulater was burned right through. I have also pulled apart the ignition control unit to make sure nothing was shorting out there, and found everything to be ok. Guess I have more tearing apart to do. Good thing I have few months before biking season. Have a Happy New Year RB

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Re: 86 gl1200 starts without key

Postby WingAdmin » Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:14 pm

OK, on your regulator/rectifier, there are several wires. The three yellow wires (which I suspect are the ones that melted, correct? We'll get to that in a minute) bring power from the stator (alternator) into the regulator.

The two red wires (which connect to red/white wires) supply power to the battery, to charge it when the engine is running.

The two green wires both go to ground.

The blue wire (which connects to a blue/light green wire) goes to fuse number 5, the 10 amp ignition fuse, among other things. The rectifier sees +12V on this wire when the key switch is turned to "ON", and it then says "OK, enable the rectifier so that battery charging can occur."

If there is a short between either of the red (or red/white) wires and the blue (or blue/light green) wires, you will get exactly the behavior you're seeing. The battery will backfeed the ignition circuit and power it directly, instead of going through the 10 amp ignition fuse. We can verify this by removing fuse #5 (ignition). If the bike is still "on", then we know that this is very likely the case.

In this case, we have to track down the culprit. It could either be a short inside the connector for the rectifier, or a faulty rectifier, where the short is inside the unit itself. It is also possible that the short is in the wiring itself, which will be tougher to find.

Start by pulling that fuse and confirming that the ignition stays on. If so, the next thing I'd try is putting the old rectifier back on. If it still happens, then we know it's a connector or wire short. If it doesn't happen, then it's either the new rectifier, or a short inside the rectifier side of the connector.


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nsjoe
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Re: 86 gl1200 starts without key

Postby nsjoe » Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:22 am

WingAdmin wrote:OK, on your regulator/rectifier, there are several wires. The three yellow wires (which I suspect are the ones that melted, correct? We'll get to that in a minute) bring power from the stator (alternator) into the regulator.

The two red wires (which connect to red/white wires) supply power to the battery, to charge it when the engine is running.

The two green wires both go to ground.

The blue wire (which connects to a blue/light green wire) goes to fuse number 5, the 10 amp ignition fuse, among other things. The rectifier sees +12V on this wire when the key switch is turned to "ON", and it then says "OK, enable the rectifier so that battery charging can occur."

If there is a short between either of the red (or red/white) wires and the blue (or blue/light green) wires, you will get exactly the behavior you're seeing. The battery will backfeed the ignition circuit and power it directly, instead of going through the 10 amp ignition fuse. We can verify this by removing fuse #5 (ignition). If the bike is still "on", then we know that this is very likely the case.
In this case, we have to track down the culprit. It could either be a short inside the connector for the rectifier, or a faulty rectifier, where the short is inside the unit itself. It is also possible that the short is in the wiring itself, which will be tougher to find.

Start by pulling that fuse and confirming that the ignition stays on. If so, the next thing I'd try is putting the old rectifier back on. If it still happens, then we know it's a connector or wire short. If it doesn't happen, then it's either the new rectifier, or a short inside the rectifier side of the connector.

1200iRectifier.gif



Good call WingAdmin.
Joe
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Lucky713
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Re: 86 gl1200 starts without key

Postby Lucky713 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:17 am

WingAdmin and Nsjoe

Thanks for your post. I know they were exactly the same, but I appreciate both of you helping me out. I did not throw away the old regulator/rectifier. So i did as you adivsed. I disconnected the ignition fuse.....and guess what...it still started without the key. So I hooked up the old rectifier. Sure enough the problem was eliminated. Unfortunately because some of my connections were scortched on the yellow wires, I had to cut off the connection on the new regulator, so I could make new connections. So now I'm screwed as far as returning the new regulator. So my question to you both, is do I dare use the old regulator, or should I bite the bullet and buy another new one?? Second question, if I do have to buy another new regulator, do you have any suggestions on who I should purchase it through. The one that I purchased was suppose to be a brand new one. Unfortunatley I dont have the paperwork from the company I bought it from, because I bought it a copule of months ago. Obviously it is not the best quality, if they sent me a deffective product. Or is there some way to take apart the new rectifier, and see if there is a short inside somewhere? Thoughts??

Thanks

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Re: 86 gl1200 starts without key

Postby nsjoe » Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:40 pm

Sorry you're out the money on the "new" regulator. You can get the original Honda part (#13) here:

http://www.hdlparts.com/fiche_section_d ... &fveh=3444

$180 is alot, but at least you would know it was an original part. I'm sure someone will chime in with aftermarket parts. I saw some good writeups on an aftermarket regulator, but since I sold my 1200, I didn't save the info.

Did you replace the old unit just because of the burnt wires? If so, you may try wiring the old unit in place and checking to see that everything is operating correctly. As long as you are satisfied with the wiring, it will probably be alright. My personal opinion is that the unit is 24 years old and should be replaced....but that's me.

You want advice from WingAdmin on opening the new unit to find the fault, not from me.

Joe
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WingAdmin
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Re: 86 gl1200 starts without key

Postby WingAdmin » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:25 pm

The regulator on the 1100 is potted, I suspect the same is true on the 1200 - which means you can't open it, the components are encased in epoxy, it's not serviceable.

That said, when regulators fail, they normally fail one of two ways: wide open, feeding 48 VAC from the alternator directly into the 12 volt bus (this is bad), or closed, where they just put out nothing at all. Very rarely do they fail "somewhat" - so if your old regulator is still working and charging the battery (despite the condition of the connectors), I'd say wire it in and call it a day.

The connectors melting are normally due to grease and dirt in the connectors, and doesn't have to do with the regulator itself.

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Lucky713
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Re: 86 gl1200 starts without key

Postby Lucky713 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:39 pm

Think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and buy a new one. The reason I replaced it was because I was having some problems with the battery not being charged properly. One of my friends told me to start with the regulator first. He said if that did not solve the charging issue, then it was probably the Stator. So I guess I'm out of luck. If anyone knows of a good aftermarket regulator for less then $180, please let me know.

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Re: 86 gl1200 starts without key

Postby WingAdmin » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:16 pm

Instead of just randomly replacing the regulator and hoping it will fix it, it's quite easy to check the charging functionality of your old regulator.

First, make sure the battery is charged before doing this. Use an external charger if required.

The first thing you want to do is check for leakage. To do this, turn the ignition OFF, disconnect the ground cable from the battery, then put a voltmeter between the ground cable and the ground terminal on the battery. This will measure the amount of power being drawn when the bike is off. The service manual states that you should see 0 volts, but I disagree - as the radio memory draws a tiny bit of power, and any other accessories you may have added (clocks, etc.) may draw a bit as well. If you switch your voltmeter to amps and measure again, you shouldn't see more than 10-20 milliamps at most.

This shows that an internal leak hasn't developed within the regulator itself.

Next, hook the ground cable back up and start the engine up. Let it warm up, then shut it down. Switch the headlight to high beam. Remove the main fuse (the one in the solenoid housing), and hook up your ammeter across the fuse terminals. Set the ammeter to be able to measure at least 30 amps.

Ammeter hookup
Ammeter hookup


Start the engine and allow the engine to run at 2,500 rpm immediately after starting. The ammeter should show a very large draw immediately after starting, then gradually reduce. Reduce the RPM and check both the current and voltage. They should be as below:

Charging specifications
Charging specifications


Return the engine to idle, then gradually raise engine RPM until the output is exactly 0. This should be about 1,000 to 1,200 rpm.

This will check that your battery charging system is operational.

To check the actual operation of the rectifier, disconnect the rectifier and check the continuity of the leads as shown:

Rectifier Continuity Test
Rectifier Continuity Test


Rectifier Internals
Rectifier Internals




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