1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing


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creekhound2
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1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby creekhound2 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:36 pm



hello again fellows.i thought i had all the gremlins out of my pops wing,1985 I model but... cylinder #2 isn't firing properly.here is what i have done thus far.replaced a bad coil ,replaced pulse generators and now have good hot fire to all cylinders.went ahead and pulled the carbs. replaced all the vacuum lines and fuel lines.then,compression was down on #2 and # 4.should have checked it sooner.i then pulled the head and the valves weren't seating very good.(bike has been setting for awhile).lapped the valves ,new gasket and o-rings.compression is now 150+ on all cylinders.the timing belts ,i also replaced and timing is perfect.the carbs. weren't all that bad.i checked the float levels on all four ,but i wonder if #2 is set to high causing a lean mix? i tried to sync. the carbs and they look good on vacuum.#2 will only fire if the sync. adjusting screw is way off.i dont mind pulling the carbs. again if that will take care of the problem.at this point i have done so much i cant see the forest for the trees! any input is welcome.sometimes we can miss the obvious.thanks to all.creekhound2



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MJSantos
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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby MJSantos » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:44 pm

creekhound2 wrote:hello again fellows.i thought i had all the gremlins out of my pops wing,1985 I model but... cylinder #2 isn't firing properly.here is what i have done thus far.replaced a bad coil ,replaced pulse generators and now have good hot fire to all cylinders.went ahead and pulled the carbs. replaced all the vacuum lines and fuel lines.then,compression was down on #2 and # 4.should have checked it sooner.i then pulled the head and the valves weren't seating very good.(bike has been setting for awhile).lapped the valves ,new gasket and o-rings.compression is now 150+ on all cylinders.the timing belts ,i also replaced and timing is perfect.the carbs. weren't all that bad.i checked the float levels on all four ,but i wonder if #2 is set to high causing a lean mix? i tried to sync. the carbs and they look good on vacuum.#2 will only fire if the sync. adjusting screw is way off.i dont mind pulling the carbs. again if that will take care of the problem.at this point i have done so much i cant see the forest for the trees! any input is welcome.sometimes we can miss the obvious.thanks to all.creekhound2


With what has been done, maybe three things come to mind. The first is with the sync screw turned all the way off means the butterfly is nearly closed. You might have a pinched "O" Ring on the intake runner caused a vacum leak. Second do you have good fire at the plug tip? And last the carb could be suspect. I would ckeck plug fire then the runner "O" Ring, this can be done with the bike running a shooting some oil around the seam between the runner and head.
Some of the other folks might come by with more ideas, good luck.

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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby WingAdmin » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:53 pm

Another easy way to check for vacuum leak is to gently spray starter fluid or propane around the outside carb in question while idling, and looking for the RPM to come up and the #2 cylinder to start firing better.

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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby creekhound2 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:56 pm

thanks for the quick reply guys.will check the things you brought up.would the float level being off make that cylinder lay out?again thanks for the quick replies.

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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby creekhound2 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:58 pm

sorry, i forgot to mention i have a good hot spark to all cylinders.nice and blue.

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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby Mooseman » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:06 pm

Yes, try spraying a little starter fluid or carb choke cleaner where the intake runner screws to the head. If you get a change in rpm you may have pinched the O-ring gasket. I put a little grease on mine in the runner grove to hold it in place while attaching.
Also if the float is not adjusted to specs. this can cause a lean condition for that carburetor.
You have done a lot so don't lose site. You are just about out of the forest and ready to enjoy the ride. Keep us posted on the outcome.
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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby starfleetengineer » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:20 am

With all that said. It sounds just like a vac leak. Lp would be the safest way to check it. Take the defuser off of a propane torch and put on a rubber hose. 2 ft long is good. Warm the engine up. Put a tach on it and crack open the to the torch. With a rubber hose you can get all the way around the intake runner and around the carb it's self. You might have a leak in it. Don't forget to check the runner for the air system. That o-ring could be pinched or the rubber hose in the line could be cracked.
How many times do I have to tell ya,,, The right tool for the right job!

creekhound2
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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby creekhound2 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:23 pm

well, i wish i could say its fixed but it isn't.i have pulled the carbs. twice since my last post.once to replace the slow air diaphragm and the second to double check all the float levels,intake o rings and my vacuum lines.i even tried another air chamber(reed valve ass.)i just don't understand why #2 and now #4 cylinders wont hit.i have great fire,fuel and like i said earlier,150 pounds compression on all cylinders.when i try to sync the carbs ,they all respond to adjustment ,but so far it is only running strong on #1 and #3 cylinders.to recap ,here is what i have done this far.replaced the left head gasket and o rings.lapped the valves as compression then was only 60 pounds.replaced timing belts, cleaned the carbs. and new spark plugs several times. i had on hand used pulse generators ,ignition module, and a air chamber box.new spark plug caps too. nothing has made any difference.oh ,also had to replace the coil to this same side.makes me wonder what caused the problems on just this side?any way,i am just about at my patiences end.where do i go from here?i work on my wing which is a 87 aspencade.cleaned and sync.carbs. installed new belts and not a single problem.like i said ,this is a recent purchase my father made and you guessed it."sure dad,i can fix it."famous last words.i really appreciate all the feed back. i welcome any and all ideas.if any one wants to call heres my cell phone .i am disabled, so most anytime is fine.thanks again.gary 660-651-1185.p.s. this is a 1985 gl 1200 i by the way.

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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby starfleetengineer » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:52 am

Is it possable that the 2/4 cam is off a tooth? If you have a good hot spark, then the only thing it can be is fuel related or vacume leak. One other possability it could be is worn down cam lobes for cyl's 2/4. I can think of anything else that could cause it. After you run it, what do the 2/4 spark plugs look like? "Dry/Wet,Black/Brown or White?"
It now sounds like pluged up jets or passages in the carbs. It only takes one spec to plug them up. If by chance you haven't checked them for blockages. Try useing compressed air to blow them out. Not a compresser, unless you have a regulator inline with the hose. Use the cans you can buy at Walmart to clean computers!
Don't give up. I know its hair pulling time, but once you fix it, you'll feel a whole lot better!
How many times do I have to tell ya,,, The right tool for the right job!

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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby creekhound2 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:05 am

thanks for the reply starfleetengineer.i have just rechecked the carbs. again.they look good.the inlet filters look new. you did make me think about this however.when i removed the head to check the valves ,i left the the cam together the way it is when you unbolt it.when i reinstalled everything ,i just bolted the cam assembly back on. should i have bled the lifters or anything?when it was all back together it fired right up, but had severe lifter ticking for awhile.this went away after a few minutes, but now i wonder if i missed a step or two? the manual i have is very confusing in this area.the cam itself looked good ,no dings,chips or blue areas.the bike shows 37,000 miles. gonna recheck my recheck of the timing today ,make sure its still right on.i just don't have a clue anymore.thanks again everyone.maybe some body will figure this out .

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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby starfleetengineer » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:07 pm

Whenever you take the belts off you should "ALWAYS" make sure you have the engine set on #1 top dead center. I do this on autos as well. You will know the engine #1 piston is up, and on tdc. Also with the cams set on #1 tdc you stand less of a chance having the piston hit one of them. The lifters will bleed down on their own after awhile. This is normal. Thats is what the ticking sound was. As it ran it pumped them back up. Having the engine on #1 tdc makes it easier to get the crank, cam and belts set back to their timing marks. As for the filter, It can look good but still be pluged up. Try blowing though it. If you can blow though it with little force, it should be clear. The harder you have to blow the more pluged it is. Just don't inhail while you have it close to your mouth. Sounds like your making good prodgress!!!!
How many times do I have to tell ya,,, The right tool for the right job!

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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby Mooseman » Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:59 pm

OK, I know you have done all this. But a recheck. You started with #2 not firing. Replaced parts and then 2 & 4. Were not doing their thing. Carbs on and off and cleaned.
If you had a bad coil for #2 it should have affected #1 also, as they share the same coil. #3 and #4 share the same coil. It fires to light one cyl off and the other half is on the exhaust stroke.
But if it runs I guess this wouldn't be an issue.
When you reset the floats did you clean out the jets and the other little passage ways? See my photos for carb over haul. Mine had also sat for years and I found two Idle jets plugged along with a passage way. Till I corrected this, idle was a little off and it had a hesitation problem when accelerating. I also missed hooking up the bottom vacuum hose to the "air vent cont. valve". It started fine but after a bit it ran like c..p and went down hill from there.

Now that you have done all this stuff you have done. When does the bike run badly? Idle, fast idle, accelerating, how does it run at speed? How do you determin which cyl's are not working right?
Did you test your coils and plug wires with a ohm meter for spec's. If it's an ignition problem it could be breaking down under load or compression. I know you are at whits end, but hang in there.
Mooseman
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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby creekhound2 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:57 am

thanks mooseman.here is a recap to answer your questions.the day we bought the bike it didn't run very well.the guy (older gent) said it had been setting awhile.he also said to his knowledge,it didn't any work.he had recently(?)had the carbs. cleaned.it was all it could do to pull up on the trailer.got it home and started looking for the problem.when i pulled the plug wire off #2 and #1 it made no difference in engine r.p.m..i got a used coil off e-bay and that fixed the problem.took it for a spin and it was still down on power.did the compression check and 2-4 were both at 60 pounds.1-3 were at that time,145 and 95.i next pulled the head on 2-4 side and found the valves weren't seating good.lapped them in ,new o rings on the oil tube in the block. new head gasket, along with sea-foam in the tank.ran it that way for awhile ,off -on in the shop for a week or two.rechecked the compression,yahoo! all cylinders were at 150 pounds.at this point i thought i should check the belts .i went ahead and replaced them and triple checked the timing.fired right up but i could tell nothing had really changed.it still didn't run right.with the engine running,i pulled the wires on all cylinders, one at a time.2-4 weren't hitting.i changed the spark plugs. no difference.replaced the spark plug caps.no difference.pulled the carbs. off ,took them apart. boiled them ,checked all jets to make sure they were open.they were.all inlet filters were also clean.reassembled .made no difference.2-4 still wont hit.changed the fuel filter,pulse generators, ignition module . no change.removed the carbs. again . checked float levels and replaced all the vacuum lines,all fuel lines. all o rings on intake.no change.i have sprayed starting fluid around the carbs. and all the lines.didn't change the r.p.m. at all.i have checked and rechecked the timing .it is perfect.last resort i pulled the carbs. again and replaced the air chamber(reed assembly) and the slow air diaphragm.2-4 still wont hit.they continue to have a fat blue spark through the plugs every time i check them. the last thing i tried is bypassing the fuel pump and filter .i installed a separate tank and line to see if lack of fuel was the problem.i doesn't even want to run like that.not enough pressure i guess.when you try to sync. the carbs. ,they respond to adjustment ,but those two cylinders wont come in.i cant remember for sure,but at one point #2 was hitting but #4 wouldn't.in this whole process,i even lost that.1-3 continue to hit like sledge hammers. i am truly lost and have no idea where to go next.i think maybe i need to start all over.it is way too cold and snow on the ground here in Missouri to attempt to take it for a spin.all the symptoms are at idle or while revving the motor.i am sure there are other things i have tried ,but this is the main course.anyone have any thing for me to try ?thanks in advance,creekhound2.

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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby Mooseman » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:40 pm

OK, you have covered it all. Nice recap.
Now it's what do #2 & #4 have in common? Both are on the left side as you sit on the MC. Good compression, good spark, timing spot on.
#4 is the base carb for sync and is non adjustable.
What kind of sync gauge are you using?
So that leaves carburetion and or valves not opening correctly.
I have had problems with some of the sync gauges when the carbs are way off and the bike will run like c..p
I use a mercury gauge and find this to be best for getting them in sync if they have been way out, at least for me.
I have never had a head off before, so I just know what the book shows.
When you lapped the valves could this have changed the valve adjuster shim values?
When it's running and you shut it down and pull #2 and #4 plugs are they wet or dry?
There has to be an answer somewhere.
Mooseman
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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby creekhound2 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:40 pm

hey mooseman.i use a carb- tune brand synchronize tool.its the one with the stainless steel rods.comes highly recommended.as far as the plugs,i guess there damp,not wet. and i also wondered about the valve settings or the lifter settings as well.the book i have is very confusing.i called a local mechanic to ask him about it .he said as long as the cam assembly remained intact,it shouldn't effect anything.that's what i did when i did the valves.(left it intact)it did take a few minutes for the lifters to pump up, but he said that was normal.like i said ,i am really lost here.tomorrow is another day.maybe something will pop up from this forum to give me some guidance.thanks again .let me know if you have any other ideas. creekhound2

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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby starfleetengineer » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:42 pm

I do not think that these valves have shims. Also unless you you put the lapping tool on a power drill, there is no way you could have changed the valve gap. I still think it has tobe in the carbs...
Rick
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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby Mooseman » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:40 pm

OK, I know this is a real pain.......... But what about swaping your carbs to your Dad's bike?
After all you have done this so much lately you are an expert...... :geek: LOL

Also this is what the factory service manual says about valve adjustment.
HYDRAULIC TAPPET ADJUSTER SHIM
SELECTION
Adjust with shims the hydraulic tappet adjusters
when any of the following parts is replaced:
• Cylinder head/camshaft holder
• Camshaft
• Valve/valve seat (refaced)
• Rocker arm/rocker arm shaft
Mooseman
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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby creekhound2 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:28 am

well mr.mooseman,sounds like you may be on to something.i will pull the valve cover and try to figure out how the adjustment is done.and i also have a extra set of carbs. i bought for my bike.don't think they are exactly the same as on a 85,but i will work them over and swap em out if the shim adjustment doesn't pan out.thanks for hanging with me on this .for the first time in a while i feel like i may be moving forward.let you know how this goes.creekhound2 p.s. you going to the honda wing ding @ Knoxville,tn. this July?

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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby starfleetengineer » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:49 pm

Have you found anything yet? Hope it was simple if you did..
How many times do I have to tell ya,,, The right tool for the right job!

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Mooseman
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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby Mooseman » Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:52 pm

Naw, no Wing Ding for me this year anyway.
Do let us know what you find out.
Enjoy the ride. They are all good, just some better than others.
Mooseman

creekhound2
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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby creekhound2 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:19 am

sorry guys,thought i posted my follow up.i don't really know what the actual problem was but... the last( new ) part i put on was plug caps.in order to just see if it made any difference i installed them with out the boots.some how i crossed the wires.put them in the correct order and Tada! i know for sure this was simply the last problem.with everything i did ,i wont ever know for sure.its finally running and sounding like a goldwing should.i truly thank you all for your help.i have learned a lot about this bike. so maybe, i can help some one next time.thanks,creekhound2- p.s., it never even backfired with the wires crossed.

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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby starfleetengineer » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:46 am

:D Way to go! I guess it goes to show all of us, just your spark plug routeing :oops: Glad she running goood now!
How many times do I have to tell ya,,, The right tool for the right job!

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Re: 1200 goldwing #2 cylinder not firing

Postby imfree » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:17 am

Make sure you have gas in those carbs,if something is plugging the fuel inlet in the air chamber or the fuel joint pipes you will have this problem,Also check that your throttle linkage is connected properly to your sync screws,you have a spring and two flat washers,It must be between the two flat washers.Good luck,Joe




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