1500 Engine "Kickback"


Information and questions on GL1500 Goldwings (1988-2000)
  • Sponsored Links
Jim Goulet
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:26 pm
Location: Lead Hill, Arkansas
Motorcycle: 1993 GL1500 Aspencade

1500 Engine "Kickback"

Postby Jim Goulet » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:33 pm



I have a '93 GL1500 that has a nasty damaging "Kickback" when trying to start after washing or sitting still in the rain. I had to have some gears replaced (as a result of this) a couple of years ago and now it has done it again. My mechanic and I have come to the only conclusion that makes any sense to us and that is that water is getting in something causing the timing to advance too much. It will be a few weeks before I can get it in the shop to tear it down again so we're using this time to learn as much as possible about potential causes. It cost me $1500 last time and it sounds worse this time. Anybody have any experiences or ideas on what my problem is?



User avatar
zamboni920
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:15 am
Location: Stavanger, Norway
Motorcycle: 1996 GL1500 SE with Hannigan 2+2 sidecar

Re: 1500 Engine "Kickback"

Postby zamboni920 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:41 pm

Just shooting a couple ideas out here.....
It happens only when wet and sitting still....
Water getting into something it shouldn't......
Water getting into one or more pistons.... would cause hydrolock....wich would "overcompress" that particular cylinder.....wich, when the other cylinders fire, could cause the hydrolocked piston to jump over the extremely over compressed water/fuel and kick engine back violently ??????????
Perhaps water shortening out a plug or two? Not sure if that could cause the kickback though. Unless it overloads with fuel in the bad cylinder, and fires all of it at the wrong time.
Next time it is about to happen (when bike is good and soaked) , try to shift it to highest gear....do not start or turn on ignition!....have someone help you push it and feel if it seems engine is locking up.
Also, perhaps remove plugs and crank to see if anything excessive is ejected from cylinders.

Just remember the old days of the kickstart.....the only thing that would cause the engine to kick back was bad timing or flooded engine.

User avatar
robb
Posts: 1040
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:46 pm
Location: Lexington, North Carolina
Motorcycle: 1989 Honda GL1500 Aspencade

Re: 1500 Engine "Kickback"

Postby robb » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:35 am

First thought was the ignition pulse generator. Sounds like a wire is going to ground when wet.

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7646
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: 1500 Engine "Kickback"

Postby virgilmobile » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:53 am

As I understand the system. One pulse coil is used to fire the coils and the other is to determine when to fire them.a error in the pulse can false trigger the ignition system.as mentioned,look close at the pulse coil connector plug.I think on my 88 it's in the front left side.
The ECM also changes timing when in gear,thus the reason for all the gear selector switch wires going to it.you might as well check for corrosion on that plug too.

User avatar
robb
Posts: 1040
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:46 pm
Location: Lexington, North Carolina
Motorcycle: 1989 Honda GL1500 Aspencade

Re: 1500 Engine "Kickback"

Postby robb » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:29 pm

Loose one pulse generator and you loose half the fire, so it's running on 3 cylinders. That is hard on an engine.

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7646
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: 1500 Engine "Kickback"

Postby virgilmobile » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:02 pm

robb wrote:Loose one pulse generator and you loose half the fire, so it's running on 3 cylinders. That is hard on an engine.

I'm not sure about that Robb,the 1100-1200 use 2 pulse coils to trigger the 2 ignition modules but the 6 cylinder is different.With the same technology it would have to have 3 pulse coils triggered from the cam.There's only 2 and their both on the crank. one has to be a crank position sensor,the other the pulse coil.The trigger wheel has 12 slots and by some japanesse math it determines what pair is fired and when.The trigger wheel has one empty slot for a reference point.

And by all means,a bad one can false trigger the ignition too.

User avatar
robb
Posts: 1040
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:46 pm
Location: Lexington, North Carolina
Motorcycle: 1989 Honda GL1500 Aspencade

Re: 1500 Engine "Kickback"

Postby robb » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:51 pm

No, one is firing left and one is firing right, 3 coils each fire a left and right plug. Once the fire is established it is coil 1-2-3. They read at different times seperated by 60 degree. Principal would be the same for 8 ,10 or 12 cylinder.

bustedwing
Posts: 1052
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:17 pm
Location: Hermansville, Mich
Motorcycle: 1990 Gold wing Trike
Contact:

Re: 1500 Engine "Kickback"

Postby bustedwing » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:00 pm

The thought I had was is water getting in thru the intake somehow when it normally would just be drained off?In other words, is there a crack in one of the intake pipes to allow water thru the air cleaner where it can be diverted but into the intake manifold? This would cause the same hydrolock.Just a thought.
Proud member Patriot Guard

User avatar
robb
Posts: 1040
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:46 pm
Location: Lexington, North Carolina
Motorcycle: 1989 Honda GL1500 Aspencade

Re: 1500 Engine "Kickback"

Postby robb » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:33 pm

If anything is open enough to allow water in the problem would exist in some form at all times.

bustedwing
Posts: 1052
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:17 pm
Location: Hermansville, Mich
Motorcycle: 1990 Gold wing Trike
Contact:

Re: 1500 Engine "Kickback"

Postby bustedwing » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:14 pm

robb wrote:If anything is open enough to allow water in the problem would exist in some form at all times.

But if the engine is running it will be able to run some of the water thru without stalling or lockup as long as it isn't a flood of water. If the engine is stopped the water pools and a lot of water is ingested and then you get lockup.
Proud member Patriot Guard

User avatar
robb
Posts: 1040
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:46 pm
Location: Lexington, North Carolina
Motorcycle: 1989 Honda GL1500 Aspencade

Re: 1500 Engine "Kickback"

Postby robb » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:37 pm

If water can get in then it means it's sucking air. That problem would be noticable under any condition.

bustedwing
Posts: 1052
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:17 pm
Location: Hermansville, Mich
Motorcycle: 1990 Gold wing Trike
Contact:

Re: 1500 Engine "Kickback"

Postby bustedwing » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:15 pm

The water can sit in the duct work before the aircleaner, but I am not going to argue the point, just give sugesstions. There CAN be more than one spot that a hole can open up where water can get into the intake and pool until you fire it up , or try, then the water goes into the cylinder and causes hydrolock.
Proud member Patriot Guard

Jim Goulet
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:26 pm
Location: Lead Hill, Arkansas
Motorcycle: 1993 GL1500 Aspencade

Re: 1500 Engine "Kickback"

Postby Jim Goulet » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:52 pm

I appreciate all of the suggestions.

When we had it apart the first time, we saw noting to indicate a problem. Unfortunately, my mechanic never saw/heard this kickback even though I experience it 4 out of 5 wet starts. He even tried to reproduce it by liberally running a hose on it and then attempting to start it.

We believe there are only two possible causes... 1) Hydrolocking (water making its way to the combustion chamber) or 2) Kickback from pre-ignition of fuel due to inadvertant advancement of timing.

We were pursuing #2 "Timing". Possibly water getting into one of the sensors (or their plug connectors) and causing timing advancement. We came to this as a result of discussion about the old Harleys that you could twist the throtle backward to retard the spark so it was less likely to break your leg when kick-starting.

I hope this additional dialog spurs additional thought and more suggestions. When I start seeing the same idea multiple times, I'll feel more like we have found the root cause.

I will have this thing repaired. I would feel better going into it with an assignable cause. Short of that, we'll trace any possible leak path, replace all air and coolant sensors and insure watertight seal on all connections.

Thanks again All!
Jim G.

bustedwing
Posts: 1052
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:17 pm
Location: Hermansville, Mich
Motorcycle: 1990 Gold wing Trike
Contact:

Re: 1500 Engine "Kickback"

Postby bustedwing » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:05 pm

Water can cause funny things with electronics, and the older the bikes the easier to have a seal broken.You have my interest, keep us updated.
Proud member Patriot Guard

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7646
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: 1500 Engine "Kickback"

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:35 pm

This is kinda close to what I was looking for.I'm still not sure about the second pulse coils function,unless it's to determine TDC or a secondary reference for ignition timing???
Anybody know.The specs refer to a "not shown" sensor used for the computer to fire COP (coil on plug).
It still sounds like a bad connection on one of the pulse coils to me.You know,the "kickback" thing,not a locked engine (hydrolock)
I hope that the terminology fits exactly what happens to the motor.

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7646
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: 1500 Engine "Kickback"

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:53 pm

When it did this,what happend next.Were you able to start it later od did you have to pull the plugs to clear the fluid in the cylinder?

Oh,by the way,when my 1200 "hydrolocked" I jumped on the bike and hit the starter.The engine rolled just a little and just stopped.It just went rupp and then nothing,maybe a half a revolution on the crank.It was fast....1/2 second of cranking.

I tapped the button again and all I got was a click.There was no loud bang,no horrible noise.It just sounded like the battery was suddenly disconnected.

I actually removed the starter because I was convinced that it died.
Now,to get water into the cylinder on the 1500,it would have to be near flooded right into the air intake pipe.The air cleaner sets pretty high in the box and there is a drain in there too.

Jim Goulet
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:26 pm
Location: Lead Hill, Arkansas
Motorcycle: 1993 GL1500 Aspencade

Re: 1500 Engine "Kickback"

Postby Jim Goulet » Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:44 pm

Virgilmobile,

Your description of your 1200 "Hydrplocking" closely resemples mine. Except mine doesn't go "rupp"... it is a shoulder cringing disruption of the revolution of the engine! Usually ripping an explitive from me. Sometimes (rarely really) subsequent attempts to start it it would go ahead and turn over but mostly it seemed like it was run up against something. Now it seems more like my issue is "Hydrolocking". If it were "Kickback" as a result of pre-ignition, it would kick-back rather than seem as though it was running up against something on subsequent attempts. On the other hand, if it were hydrolocking, why does it start without issue after a few hours? If it is water, where is the water going over time? I do nothing but let it sit (I don't pull the plugs). Seems like if I can get one or two revolutions, the water would have been pushed out the exhaust valve to the exhaust system.

Again, I appreciate the great conversation. If we keep throwing this thing back and forth over the fence, I'm confident we'll find the solution(s).
Jim G.

JONLESTER
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:17 am
Location: Lauderhill, Florida
Motorcycle: 1998 GL1500A Aspencade

Re: 1500 Engine "Kickback"

Postby JONLESTER » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:41 am

I had a similar problem on one of my 1200's and it turned out to be one of the needle valves in one of the carbs that was leaking and letting gas get into the cylinder causing a hydraulic lock. I pulled the spark plugs out and then turned the engine over with the cut off switch activated and gasoline shot out of one of the cylinders. Even though the fuel pump is not running when engine is off there is still pressure from the tank that builds up. when I parked the bike after that I turned the gas tank cap loose to relieve the pressure each time
I stopped and never had the problem again.


Jon




Return to “GL1500 Information & Questions”




Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], krhh and 8 guests